DB Cooper

[Chaucer 110]

6 hours ago, georger said:

Cooper made it very clear on the plane (almost an obsession) that he did not want to be interfered with or apprehended - he had a fear of sky marshals. He kept bringing it up over and over. I can't see Cooper changing his mind after the fact or doing anything to tempt fate. It may be tied to his grudge whatever that was. Maybe he changed his mind or softened later? That is basically what Gunher/Clara would have you believe. 

In fact, FJ was convinced Cooper tried to wipe off his prints. He asked for his note back. He took the briefcase with him etc etc. I just dont see this guy doing anything intentionally to reveal his identity or tempt fate. Unless he truly isnt too intelligent which seems to be Carr's profile of the man ? 

My profile of Cooper is a person following a 'tactical' plan, doing exactly what he asked people to do and following that script himself, either tactically trained or following a well thought out script almost to the letter, just as he himself said, and adapting where necessary. The right plane in the right place at the right time, to the letter. So far as I know that contrasts sharply with most other hijackings and its the reason behind why others called McCoy a 'copycat'. That is an acknowledgment of Cooper's tactically scripted performance. I wonder if he is a musician or a composer? I see strong math skills at working calculating the odds at every turn, if not literally then informally-subjectively. I dont think Cooper is going to contact an author or risk his identity being exposed unless that is part of his original plan ? I wonder what instruments he plays ?  

I have been waiting for 302s to reflect a public stance vs a non-public stance in which the FBI communicated they might be dealing with a highly trained motivated person ?  So far I havent seen the acknowledgement, if it existed ?  

I couldn't disagree stronger.

What strikes me more than anything is the incongruence in his knowledge.

He knew the flight could make it the 2,000 miles to Mexico City, but didn't realize the stairs and landing gear down would impact it's performance.

He knew enough to check the packing cards, but didn't know or didn't care that the chutes didn't actually come from McChord like he had anticipated. Moreover, he didn't bother to bring his own gear on the flight.

He claimed to know where the oxygen tanks were, and the re-feuling procedures, but didn't know how to lower the airstairs which was a very elementary thing to do.

That doesn't even get into whether he wanted 2 chutes originally and changed his mind or wanted the airstairs down at takeoff or after takeoff.

The point is that, it seems to me, that Cooper apparent holes in his knowledge is indicative of someone who tried to plan this with little prior knowledge and little planning time. I don't think he had extensive knowledge of aviation, the 727, parachutes, or skydiving. Rather, I think he's guy who planned this in less than two weeks and tried cobble together a coherent plan on the fly. 

I have 25+ years in education, and to me, this screams a guy who crammed for an exam rather than someone who actually knew the material.

However, for Cooper, his plan was successful, and as a result, it makes him look like as an expert or a genius, when I think it's more likely that he was just lucky.

Edited August 11 by Chaucer

[georger 228]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I couldn't disagree stronger.

What strikes me more than anything is the incongruence in his knowledge.

He knew the flight could make it the 2,000 miles to Mexico City, but didn't realize the stairs and landing gear down would impact it's performance.

He knew enough to check the packing cards, but didn't know or didn't care that the chutes didn't actually come from McChord like he had anticipated. Moreover, he didn't bother to bring his own gear on the flight.

He claimed to know where the oxygen tanks were, and the re-feuling procedures, but didn't know how to lower the airstairs which was a very elementary thing to do.

That doesn't even get into whether he wanted 2 chutes originally and changed his mind or wanted the airstairs down at takeoff or after takeoff.

The point is that, it seems to me, that Cooper apparent holes in his knowledge is indicative of someone who tried to plan this with little prior knowledge and little planning time. I don't think he had extensive knowledge of aviation, the 727, parachutes, or skydiving. Rather, I think he's guy who planned this in less than two weeks and tried cobble together a coherent plan on the fly. 

I have 25+ years in education, and to me, this screams a guy who crammed for an exam rather than someone who actually knew the material.

However, for Cooper, his plan was successful, and as a result, it makes him look like as an expert or a genius, when I think it's more likely that he was just lucky.

I like your last line. If you are correct then your last line makes total sense. However, Im sticking with my theory. I think I can defend it even with your objections. I did not say Cooper had perfect knowledge of all aspects of the situation. I say he had a tactical plan and his approach was tactical. He adapted and adjusted tactically. Is there any problem you can cite that he didn't solve?

I am relying heavily on the crew interviews and instructions and timing of instructions he gave, the order of his laying out his requests/commands, his putting on a chute early, 'and it wasn't more than five minutes later after takeoff that he sent me to the cockpit' (Tina), I think his plan was to bail as close to Portland as he could safely get, and to send the plane to Mexico (or Mars!) to give himself time to escape before law enforcement could launch a serious informed search. 

Much depends on how much he knew about the area of Portland-Vancouver.

He solved every problem, Chris.

BTW, Sluggo said normal turn around time for NWO cleaning and refueling the 727 was 30 minutes! Small wonder Cooper got pissed if he knew that. 

[JAGdb 86]

16 hours ago, Chaucer said:

The peculiar thing is that Gunther never mentions the letters he received years earlier from someone claiming to actually BE DB Cooper. My question is why? Wouldn't that be pertinent information to share with the FBI? 

Yeah, it's what appears to be a very basic touch point with the FBI, I suspect he would have went into all of that had the FBI engaged him.  

[JAGdb 86]

5 hours ago, Chaucer said:

He knew the flight could make it the 2,000 miles to Mexico City, but didn't realize the stairs and landing gear down would impact it's performance.

 

 

To me, this has always been a crucial clue/tell, which if taken at face value strongly suggests that he could not have been a pilot. 

[Chaucer 110]

9 hours ago, georger said:

I like your last line. If you are correct then your last line makes total sense. However, Im sticking with my theory. I think I can defend it even with your objections. I did not say Cooper had perfect knowledge of all aspects of the situation. I say he had a tactical plan and his approach was tactical. He adapted and adjusted tactically. Is there any problem you can cite that he didn't solve?

I am relying heavily on the crew interviews and instructions and timing of instructions he gave, the order of his laying out his requests/commands, his putting on a chute early, 'and it wasn't more than five minutes later after takeoff that he sent me to the cockpit' (Tina), I think his plan was to bail as close to Portland as he could safely get, and to send the plane to Mexico (or Mars!) to give himself time to escape before law enforcement could launch a serious informed search. 

Much depends on how much he knew about the area of Portland-Vancouver.

He solved every problem, Chris.

BTW, Sluggo said normal turn around time for NWO cleaning and refueling the 727 was 30 minutes! Small wonder Cooper got pissed if he knew that. 

Yeah, that's the thing about this case is that Cooper seemed to know some things, but not others. He seemed to have it all worked out and then other times seemed to be making it up on the fly. 

Like, I said, it's just my sense that he was "cramming". You could be right.

[georger 228]

8 hours ago, JAGdb said:

To me, this has always been a crucial clue/tell, which if taken at face value strongly suggests that he could not have been a pilot. 

But then its Reno and he doesnt argue. It could be a diversion - a straw man, sending the plane and the center of attention a long way away from the center of attention - himself on the ground escaping back in WA.

There is a contradiction in play set up by Cooper. He has set up the plane for a jump no higher then 10k feet. Then he adds a new demand. Fly to Mexico City. Setting the plane up for a jump vs. flying to Mexico in that configuration is a contradiction. Cant be done. He is sending the plane as far off as possible away from the center of attention - himself. It buys him time to conduct an escape. He even links his hijacking to Cuban hijackings with Tina buying into that!

The whole thing is a diversion and the worst part is it works! Except for the pressure gauge and Anderson it would have worked. Then the crew 'claims' Cooper might still be on board ... as they are landing at Reno!

Gag me with a silver spoon -  Cooper is already on the ground making his way somewhere . . . and NWO in Minneapolis knows it. Then the parody at Reno will play out.

Edited August 11 by georger

[georger 228]

8 hours ago, JAGdb said:

To me, this has always been a crucial clue/tell, which if taken at face value strongly suggests that he could not have been a pilot. 

You may be correct. There is nothing Cooper can do in the back that wont alert Anderson to something important happening. Did Cooper realise that? Then the crew screws that up and doesnt report it! They dont even know their location! The weather conditions complicate matters further. No timely effective search can be mounted. 

Why didnt NWO intervene at that point and order the plane to make an emergency landing at Portland - on technical grounds? And inform Cooper (who is no longer on board) they have a serious engine problem ?

The crew, FBI, and NWO always had options! 

Edited August 11 by georger

[Robert99 46]

12 hours ago, georger said:

I like your last line. If you are correct then your last line makes total sense. However, Im sticking with my theory. I think I can defend it even with your objections. I did not say Cooper had perfect knowledge of all aspects of the situation. I say he had a tactical plan and his approach was tactical. He adapted and adjusted tactically. Is there any problem you can cite that he didn't solve?

I am relying heavily on the crew interviews and instructions and timing of instructions he gave, the order of his laying out his requests/commands, his putting on a chute early, 'and it wasn't more than five minutes later after takeoff that he sent me to the cockpit' (Tina), I think his plan was to bail as close to Portland as he could safely get, and to send the plane to Mexico (or Mars!) to give himself time to escape before law enforcement could launch a serious informed search. 

Much depends on how much he knew about the area of Portland-Vancouver.

He solved every problem, Chris.

BTW, Sluggo said normal turn around time for NWO cleaning and refueling the 727 was 30 minutes! Small wonder Cooper got pissed if he knew that. 

Georger, your last two lines have problems.  Sluggo was undoubtedly referring to the refueling time at the gate.  It would be much shorter and convenient even if a fuel truck was required to pump the fuel from the ground fuel line into the aircraft.

Who knows, since the fuel trucks were not normally used at larger airports in 1971 to refuel scheduled airliners, perhaps some of the trucks had to go to the airport fuel facility to load up before going to the NWA airliner out in the brush.

[JAGdb 86]

5 hours ago, georger said:

But then its Reno and he doesnt argue. It could be a diversion - a straw man, sending the plane and the center of attention a long way away from the center of attention - himself on the ground escaping back in WA.

There is a contradiction in play set up by Cooper. He has set up the plane for a jump no higher then 10k feet. Then he adds a new demand. Fly to Mexico City. Setting the plane up for a jump vs. flying to Mexico in that configuration is a contradiction. Cant be done. He is sending the plane as far off as possible away from the center of attention - himself. It buys him time to conduct an escape. He even links his hijacking to Cuban hijackings with Tina buying into that!

The whole thing is a diversion and the worst part is it works! Except for the pressure gauge and Anderson it would have worked. Then the crew 'claims' Cooper might still be on board ... as they are landing at Reno!

Gag me with a silver spoon -  Cooper is already on the ground making his way somewhere . . . and NWO in Minneapolis knows it. Then the parody at Reno will play out.

I'm with you that he wanted off of the plane as quickly as possible, and that Mexico City was more than likely a rouse to:
1) get the plane flying south

2) make it hard for the authorities to predict where he would jump and pre mobilize resources for a search

(Fly was a very strong contrarian on this, arguing that plan A was indeed Mexico.)

Another interesting comment Cooper made, when he was discussing where they were going to go I believe with Tina, he said something to the effect, "you are going to like it", or "you will like where we are going".

I can't determine whether it's just a throw away line or to read more into that ?

Why would they like going to Mexico ? Or maybe he just meant this would be over sooner than they realize and they will like that.

[georger 228]

7 hours ago, JAGdb said:

I'm with you that he wanted off of the plane as quickly as possible, and that Mexico City was more than likely a rouse to:
1) get the plane flying south

2) make it hard for the authorities to predict where he would jump and pre mobilize resources for a search

(Fly was a very strong contrarian on this, arguing that plan A was indeed Mexico.)

Another interesting comment Cooper made, when he was discussing where they were going to go I believe with Tina, he said something to the effect, "you are going to like it", or "you will like where we are going".

I can't determine whether it's just a throw away line or to read more into that ?

Why would they like going to Mexico ? Or maybe he just meant this would be over sooner than they realize and they will like that.

'A place you would like' I think. I'll look it up...   How does Cooper knows what Tina (a hostage) would like ? Tina probably wants to wind the clock back to last month !  Cooper is just filling space nobody likes ....      

We know the pilots were talking to the company by 8:20. If there is any redaction in the 'transcript' I think its there.  I think by 8:20 they were fairly sure he was gone and Tina or somebody went to look around the curtain, and that got reported. If that's true then everything in the Transcript to Reno is nonsense. Finally at Reno they announce they are going back to look ... ?  Their primary concern is the bomb. 8:20 is the first opportunity to look for it. I cant see the crew not looking for it at the first opportunity. It's human nature under the strongest motivation.

edit:  directly from crew interviews:  

would go to a “pleasant place”. 

"we're going to a place you would like'

‘they weren’t going to Cuba, but she would like where they were going’.   (interviewer's words)

He paused and said ‘that the flight suited his time, place, and plans.’ 

Edited August 12 by georger

[georger 228]

Question:  Will Eric continue as a researcher in the DB Cooper  case?

given the changes in coopercon leadership . . . .  anyone know ?

[Nicholas Broughton 67]

7 hours ago, georger said:

Question:  Will Eric continue as a researcher in the DB Cooper  case?

given the changes in coopercon leadership . . . .  anyone know ?

 

[georger 228]

4 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

 

I would prefer to here this from Ammerman himself, rather than from Mr Ulis interpreting Ammerman. It was Ammerman working the flight that night, not Mr. Ulis.

 

Edited August 13 by georger

[Robert99 46]

2 hours ago, georger said:

I would prefer to here this from Ammerman himself, rather than from Mr Ulis interpreting Ammerman. It was Ammerman working the flight that night, not Mr. Ulis.

 

Georger, don't hold your breath on this.  Ulis has Cooper landing on the west side of his new flight path.  As he points out, the wind was blowing toward the northeast or north-northeast during the jump.  This means that Ulis apparently believes that Cooper drifted upwind and landed upwind from the airliner's flight path.  Mother Nature doesn't work that way.

His new landing zone is about a mile from Tena Bar but there is something that Ulis apparently doesn't realize or understand the significance of although it has been pointed out to him and everyone else numerous times.

The Northwest Lower River Road lies between Tena Bar and the new landing zone.  It is built on top of a levee that results in things east of the levee going into the Vancouver Lake drainage area.  Things west of the Northwest Lower River Road goes into the Columbia River.

I visited the area shown in the video, and marked as the new landing zone, in November 2009.  It was farmland and had been recently harvested.  Based on the small stubby things (corn stalks?) sticking out of the ground, it appeared that corn was the most recently crop grown there and that the corn (or whatever it was) had been used as feed by the dairy operation just across the road.

The above has been endlessly discussed on DZ since about 2009 or early 2010. 

[JAGdb 86]

I had to read this three times when I saw it.  From part 97, a day after summary of the hijacking stating the location of the plane at 8:05pm "in the vicinity of Portland" and then at 8:12pm "south of Portland" when the oscillations were observed.   Now, this is in direct contradiction to the military/SAGE/FBI flight path and timeline.   What's somewhat tantalizing is that it cites the Northwest Flight Log as the reference for this information.  

I am chalking this up to it being literally the day after the hijacking.  But if it is simply an early error, isn't it funny how that error would dove tail so beautifully with the Tena Bar enigma and the challenges to the generally accepted flight path and time line?

Has anyone seen this in another 302 before ?  

[georger 228]

 . . where is this in Part 97 ?

 

 

Edited August 15 by georger

[JAGdb 86]

6 hours ago, georger said:

How about that! . . . where is this in P97 ?

 

Page 351, all the way at the end.

[Chaucer 110]

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[georger 228]

9 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Page 351, all the way at the end.

OK. page 351 is part of an early case summary being sent to a number of FBI offices from the Seattle office, with Seattle's early understanding of the case, sent at 6:28am on 11-25-71 the morning after the hijacking. The Seattle office is moving very quickly and already has a  number of important documents in its possession.

These eight pages may be the first detailed case summary the Seattle FBI Office thought it had in hand, at 6:28AM on 11-25-71 the morning after the hijacking. Sources of that information are listed ...

Part 97 also has a number of pages on Tosaw's work in 1980. Seattle is trying to get items Tosaw's divers have found to determine if they are part of the Cooper case.  These pages start around page 20 in Part 97.  Lab tests revealed that nothing found by Tosaw was part of the Cooper case.

Edited August 15 by georger

[Cola 49]

20 hours ago, JAGdb said:

I am chalking this up to it being literally the day after the hijacking.  But if it is simply an early error, isn't it funny how that error would dove tail so beautifully with the Tena Bar enigma and the challenges to the generally accepted flight path and time line?

I agree JAG

I think they got this right in the end.

George Harris was listening from Seattle and taking notes.

8:05 - Cooper reports he's all good

8:11 Crew mentions fluctuation in the cabin and that Coops is playing with the air stairs.

8:22 Crew reports positioning of being 23 DMES of PDX.

I trust in Sluggo's work, he noted, @ 8:22 - 23 NM S of Battleground/pdx VORTAC ( which isthe  PDX VORTAC location in Orchards)

I have not drilled into the flight details but is there is there any record of the Battleground/PDX VORTAC turn time, other then the tick marks and times noted on the on the flight path map?

 

 

 

Edited August 15 by Cola

[georger 228]

48 minutes ago, Cola said:

I agree JAG

I think they got this right in the end.

George Harris was listening from Seattle and taking notes.

8:05 - Cooper reports he's all good

8:11 Crew mentions fluctuation in the cabin and that Coops is playing with the air stairs.

8:22 Crew reports positioning of being 23 DMES of PDX.

I trust in Sluggo's work, he noted, @ 8:22 - 23 NM S of Battleground/pdx VORTAC ( which isthe  PDX VORTAC location in Orchards)

I have not drilled into the flight details but is there is there any record of the Battleground/PDX VORTAC turn time, other then the tick marks and times noted on the on the flight path map?

 

 

 

Its interesting to me that in all of the crew conversations with DBC, nobody bothered to ask: what are you going to do after you jump? Did he plan to play it by ear or did he have a plan? People cant even agree on what his plan was! Carr says he intended to bail as soon as airborne at or near Seattle. I think he intended to send the plane as far away from WA/Oregon as possible. If he always intended to jump as close to Mexico as possible, then why didn;t he? Since DBC was a hapless moron maybe he got confused and didnt have any idea where he was or what time or day it was! ? 

A basic problem in the Cooper case is a correct personality profile for the man. Including his intelligence. Including if he had any plan at all since this was a spur-of-the-moment hijacking with no plan at all, as some say. Money at Tena Bar is an enigma because Cooper was a moron and an enigma! Consider ourselves lucky that money wasnt found on a river beach in Florida! Or on a bench in New York City.

Anything is possible in the Cooper case because no two people can agree on anything.

Edited August 15 by georger

[Cola 49]

25 minutes ago, georger said:

A basic problem in the Cooper case is a correct personality profile for the man.

Are you trying to taunt me back to the social aspects of the Vortex?

 

[georger 228]

3 hours ago, Cola said:

Are you trying to taunt me back to the social aspects of the Vortex?

 

No. I am drawing attention to the lack of a viable personality profile for the hijacker in the DB Cooper case.

Have you ever read the FAA psychiatrist's evaluation of the hijacker? See the Flight Comms Transcript.

Edited August 16 by georger

[georger 228]

Part 97 page 21:   Interesting comment about the condition of the Ingram bills after Lab analysis of the money, in a letter from SA Baker/Portland to Richard Tosaw who is making regular press releases about his work in the Cooper case: The Lab notes that the serial numbers are in the same order as when given to Cooper and the Lab has not been able to separate all of the bills to get an exact count. 

[Cola 49]

14 hours ago, georger said:

No. I am drawing attention to the lack of a viable personality profile for the hijacker in the DB Cooper case.

Have you ever read the FAA psychiatrist's evaluation of the hijacker? See the Flight Comms Transcript.

Georger,

Psychoanalysis is by far my favorite area, and it’s hard to resist not socializing on PA in the Vortex.

Yes I have read the FAA stuff, I have consumed most all of the available records and am only about a day behind on my 302's.

To keep it on the case and non-social:

My question is do you know of anyone ever tracking down the FAA Chief Psychiatrist to verify the validity of his words? 

Was the FAA Chief Psychiatrist words ever placed in circulation publicly and defended as accurate?