DB Cooper

[dudeman17 310]

.

Edited July 25 by dudeman17

[FunnyStuff 1]

Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on powdered metallurgy.

Is it a potential source for the metallic element based tie particles?  I think it possibly so for the following reasons:

1 - Many of the observable images of the particles containing high contents of rare metals and low to zero oxygen levels appear to be spherical which seems to be a good fit for powdered metals

2 - The primary transfer of these particles is by touch.  It's reasonable to conclude this points towards powdered metallurgy since it would likely point to a work environment were metals weren't machined or smelted into shape.  Also, in my limited understanding of these powders they look like you're much more likely to pick them up on your skin and not notice them before touching your tie knot.  Remember the control tie tested by TK was super clean.  Are powdered metals "dirtier"?

3 - Many of the potential alloyed metals particles have a seemingly unecessary amount of metals included in them and others seem to have non-sensical combinations of metals ala the famous three TiSb particles.  Is it possible these obscure and unecessary metal combinations are actually just random combinations of powders spilling together or being left on the work bench in microscopic size and swept up together?  To me the "metalic dustball" theory for the weird combinations is more explainable with powdered metallurgy but I'm a layman.

For those reasons I think it's reasonable to view powdered metallurgy as a source of the oddities on the tie but what I'm not sure of is if this further restricts his work environment or matters at all.  Was there a niche industry for powdered metal alloying?  Perhaps a geographical hotspot?  How many powder metals producers were there?  Does the possiblity of powdered metals increase ease of transfer of these metals and increase the pool of potential candidates to salesemen/managers/custodians/etc?  I'd like to hear the A-team's thoughts on this especially if someone has already been down this rabbit hole.

 

 

[georger 230]

12 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on powdered metallurgy.

Is it a potential source for the metallic element based tie particles?  I think it possibly so for the following reasons:

1 - Many of the observable images of the particles containing high contents of rare metals and low to zero oxygen levels appear to be spherical which seems to be a good fit for powdered metals

2 - The primary transfer of these particles is by touch.  It's reasonable to conclude this points towards powdered metallurgy since it would likely point to a work environment were metals weren't machined or smelted into shape.  Also, in my limited understanding of these powders they look like you're much more likely to pick them up on your skin and not notice them before touching your tie knot.  Remember the control tie tested by TK was super clean.  Are powdered metals "dirtier"?

3 - Many of the potential alloyed metals particles have a seemingly unecessary amount of metals included in them and others seem to have non-sensical combinations of metals ala the famous three TiSb particles.  Is it possible these obscure and unecessary metal combinations are actually just random combinations of powders spilling together or being left on the work bench in microscopic size and swept up together?  To me the "metalic dustball" theory for the weird combinations is more explainable with powdered metallurgy but I'm a layman.

For those reasons I think it's reasonable to view powdered metallurgy as a source of the oddities on the tie but what I'm not sure of is if this further restricts his work environment or matters at all.  Was there a niche industry for powdered metal alloying?  Perhaps a geographical hotspot?  How many powder metals producers were there?  Does the possiblity of powdered metals increase ease of transfer of these metals and increase the pool of potential candidates to salesemen/managers/custodians/etc?  I'd like to hear the A-team's thoughts on this especially if someone has already been down this rabbit hole.

 

 

You need to run this by TK ....  Copy your post to his web site email ... otherwise:

To distinguish discrete metal particles from powdered metal, several characteristics and analytical techniques can be employed:

Characteristics of Metal Particles

1. Shape:
   • Discrete metal particles often have distinct shapes that can be spherical, ellipsoidal, or irregular. For instance, stainless steel powder particles are nearly spherical, while tin powder particles are ellipsoidal

• .
• Powdered metals, especially those used in additive manufacturing, are typically designed to have uniform shapes to ensure good packing and flow properties
• • .
• Size:
  • Particle size distribution is a critical parameter. Discrete metal particles can vary widely in size, while powdered metals are often produced to have a specific size range to meet manufacturing requirements. For example, titanium powder can have particles up to 452 μm, while other powders might have a maximum particle size of around 200 μm
• • .
• Morphology:
  • The morphology of metal particles can be studied using techniques like Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM), which provides detailed images of particle shapes and surface structures

3. • . Discrete particles might show more variability in shape and surface texture compared to uniformly produced powdered metals.

Analytical Techniques

1. Laser Diffraction:
   • This technique measures particle size distribution by analyzing the diffraction pattern of a laser beam passed through a dispersed sample. It is widely used for characterizing metal powders

• • .
• Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM):
  • SEM provides high-resolution images of particle surfaces, allowing for detailed analysis of particle shape and surface features. This can help distinguish between different types of metal particles based on their morphology
• • .
• X-Ray Computed Tomography (XCT):
  • XCT can generate 3D images of particles, providing insights into their internal structure and overall shape. This method is particularly useful for analyzing the uniformity and sphericity of powdered metals
• • .
• Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (EDS):
  • Often used in conjunction with SEM, EDS analyzes the elemental composition of particles, which can help in identifying and differentiating metal types based on their chemical makeup
• • .
• Discrete Element Method (DEM):
  • DEM simulations can evaluate the dynamic interactions between granular particles, such as flowability and packing density, which are important for understanding the behavior of powdered metals in manufacturing processes

5. • .

By using these characteristics and analytical techniques, one can effectively differentiate discrete metal particles from powdered metal, ensuring the appropriate material is used for specific applications.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/how-can-i-tell-discrete-metal-6nGT1UKaQtqGp3CZPLWdww

Edited July 26 by georger

[FunnyStuff 1]

10 hours ago, georger said:

You need to run this by TK ....  Copy your post to his web site email ... otherwise:

To distinguish discrete metal particles from powdered metal, several characteristics and analytical techniques can be employed:

Characteristics of Metal Particles

1. Shape:
   • Discrete metal particles often have distinct shapes that can be spherical, ellipsoidal, or irregular. For instance, stainless steel powder particles are nearly spherical, while tin powder particles are ellipsoidal

• .
• Powdered metals, especially those used in additive manufacturing, are typically designed to have uniform shapes to ensure good packing and flow properties
• • .
• Size:
  • Particle size distribution is a critical parameter. Discrete metal particles can vary widely in size, while powdered metals are often produced to have a specific size range to meet manufacturing requirements. For example, titanium powder can have particles up to 452 μm, while other powders might have a maximum particle size of around 200 μm

I believe TK has mentioned the possibility of powdered metallurgy as a source before although I'm not sure he's ever mentioned if that would hint in anyway to DB's industry/role/identity.  I will reach out if I can find his email.

 

Two notable things related to both shape and size.  A large portion of the titanium based particle images are spherical (including the famous 3 TiSb particles) so that fits the resources you've shared here.  However size is not super homogeneous across the data.  Looking at particles that are primarily titanium and contain no oxygen we see particles sized from 0.08 millimicrons all the way to 7,175.  I wonder if we should see a smaller range of sizes if powdered metallurgy really was to blame for the dirty tie?

[georger 230]

2 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

I believe TK has mentioned the possibility of powdered metallurgy as a source before although I'm not sure he's ever mentioned if that would hint in anyway to DB's industry/role/identity.  I will reach out if I can find his email.

 

Two notable things related to both shape and size.  A large portion of the titanium based particle images are spherical (including the famous 3 TiSb particles) so that fits the resources you've shared here.  However size is not super homogeneous across the data.  Looking at particles that are primarily titanium and contain no oxygen we see particles sized from 0.08 millimicrons all the way to 7,175.  I wonder if we should see a smaller range of sizes if powdered metallurgy really was to blame for the dirty tie?

OK - I will point Tom to your post. 

[Nicholas Broughton 67]

15 hours ago, georger said:

You need to run this by TK ....  Copy your post to his web site email ... otherwise:

To distinguish discrete metal particles from powdered metal, several characteristics and analytical techniques can be employed:

Characteristics of Metal Particles

1. Shape:
   • Discrete metal particles often have distinct shapes that can be spherical, ellipsoidal, or irregular. For instance, stainless steel powder particles are nearly spherical, while tin powder particles are ellipsoidal

• .
• Powdered metals, especially those used in additive manufacturing, are typically designed to have uniform shapes to ensure good packing and flow properties
• • .
• Size:
  • Particle size distribution is a critical parameter. Discrete metal particles can vary widely in size, while powdered metals are often produced to have a specific size range to meet manufacturing requirements. For example, titanium powder can have particles up to 452 μm, while other powders might have a maximum particle size of around 200 μm
• • .
• Morphology:
  • The morphology of metal particles can be studied using techniques like Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM), which provides detailed images of particle shapes and surface structures

3. • . Discrete particles might show more variability in shape and surface texture compared to uniformly produced powdered metals.

Analytical Techniques

1. Laser Diffraction:
   • This technique measures particle size distribution by analyzing the diffraction pattern of a laser beam passed through a dispersed sample. It is widely used for characterizing metal powders

• • .
• Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM):
  • SEM provides high-resolution images of particle surfaces, allowing for detailed analysis of particle shape and surface features. This can help distinguish between different types of metal particles based on their morphology
• • .
• X-Ray Computed Tomography (XCT):
  • XCT can generate 3D images of particles, providing insights into their internal structure and overall shape. This method is particularly useful for analyzing the uniformity and sphericity of powdered metals
• • .
• Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (EDS):
  • Often used in conjunction with SEM, EDS analyzes the elemental composition of particles, which can help in identifying and differentiating metal types based on their chemical makeup
• • .
• Discrete Element Method (DEM):
  • DEM simulations can evaluate the dynamic interactions between granular particles, such as flowability and packing density, which are important for understanding the behavior of powdered metals in manufacturing processes

5. • .

By using these characteristics and analytical techniques, one can effectively differentiate discrete metal particles from powdered metal, ensuring the appropriate material is used for specific applications.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/how-can-i-tell-discrete-metal-6nGT1UKaQtqGp3CZPLWdww

Good post. Yes some of us on the particle team including myself currently believe that powdered metallurgy may be our best explanation due to the touch transfer, particle size and opportunity to produce Frankenstein particles like 14 iron heavy ones that have been flagged and very difficult to alloy metal combos due to vastly different melting points as well as other factors like the TiSb. The  team recently found that the average area of the metals on the tie fall loosely into the expected size you'd see in powdered metallurgy 25-130 micro millimeters. We currently have stub 675 from the tie knot at Mccrone undergoing a very thorough rescan so we should know more soon! 

Edited July 26 by Nicholas Broughton

[georger 230]

8 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Good post. Yes some of us on the particle team including myself currently believe that powdered metallurgy may be our best explanation due to the touch transfer, particle size and opportunity to produce Frankenstein particles like 14 iron heavy ones that have been flagged and very difficult to alloy metal combos due to vastly different melting points as well as other factors like the TiSb. The  team recently found that the average area of the metals on the tie fall loosely into the expected size you'd see in powdered metallurgy 25-130 micro millimeters. We currently have stub 675 from the tie knot at Mccrone undergoing a very thorough rescan so we should know more soon! 

good info - interesting!  keep working...

[Nicholas Broughton 67]

2 hours ago, georger said:

good info - interesting!  keep working...

We will… keep ya posted G! 

[olemisscub 487]

 

[JAGdb 86]

Just now, olemisscub said:

 

I was meaning to ask about the Tina movie's title "Nod if you understand" and whether that was in the 302s anywhere....you covered it in this episode.  
 

If it winds up being what Tina says that the Cooper said to her or one of the other stewardesses, that's intriguing in the sense that it makes me wonder what else we might get from the movie.

[georger 230]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

Very interesting. A good podcast as usual. I would have come up with a different set of questions, and perhaps you also ?  Including several trick questions designed to reveal an imposter quickly. Questions the real Cooper would have known vs an imposter, or potentially Richard McCoy himself. The real Cooper will know things that nobody else will know including McCoy ... I wonder if McCoy would have even taken this test? Frankly I doubt it. It's fun to muse about these things ....

A good thought provoking podcast! Thanks...

Edited August 2 by georger

[georger 230]

Have there been any updates on any dna sample from Richard McCoy and any comparison to the dna sample the FBI has from DB Cooper's tie?  Perplexity AI says the following: 

what happened to richard mccoy's dna sample ?

Answer

Based on the search results, there are a few key points regarding Richard McCoy's DNA sample in relation to the D.B. Cooper case:

1. For many years, the McCoy family refused to cooperate with authorities or provide DNA samples to assist in the FBI's investigation of the D.B. Cooper case

• .
• This stance changed after the death of Richard McCoy's wife, Karen McCoy, in December 2020. Following her passing, the family became more open to assisting with DNA evidence
• .
• However, it's important to note that as of 2016, the FBI had officially closed the D.B. Cooper case
• . There is no direct statement from the FBI indicating that they have reopened the investigation.
• While there has been recent discussion about potential DNA evidence related to the D.B. Cooper case, this DNA was actually discovered in 2007 on Cooper's tie clip. However, experts caution that this evidence may have limited value due to potential contamination and the age of the sample

4. .
5. Regarding Richard McCoy specifically, there is no clear information in the search results about what happened to his DNA sample after the family became willing to cooperate. It's possible that a sample was provided, but the results or current status of any testing are not mentioned in the available information.

It's worth noting that while some researchers have proposed McCoy as a suspect in the D.B. Cooper case due to similarities in their crimes, the FBI has treated them as separate cases

. The outcome of any recent DNA comparisons, if they have occurred, has not been publicly disclosed based on the information provided and available.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-happened-to-richard-mccoy-aPEWrx1GQCCB7dvTESCYGA

 

* Obviously similarities between these hijackings may point to tactical training employed on the part of both individuals who conducted these hijackings. ?

 

Did Richard McCoy leave writings that could be linguistically compared to any other textual material available in the DB Cooper case? 

Edited August 3 by georger

[georger 230]

Were Richard McCoy and DB Cooper the same person ?

Answer

Based on the available evidence, it is unlikely that Richard McCoy and D.B. Cooper were the same person, despite some similarities in their hijackings:

1. The FBI thoroughly investigated McCoy and did not conclude he was D.B. Cooper

• . They arrested McCoy for his own hijacking but continued to treat the D.B. Cooper case as unsolved.
• There were significant differences between the two hijackers:
  • D.B. Cooper was described as calm and in control, while McCoy was reported to be nervous and angry during his hijacking
• .
• The crew from the D.B. Cooper flight observed photos and videos of McCoy and stated he was not the same person
• .
• McCoy was much younger than the middle-aged man described as D.B. Cooper
• • .
• McCoy's hijacking occurred about 4.5 months after D.B. Cooper's, and some evidence suggests it was a copycat crime rather than a repeat by the same person:
  • McCoy reportedly told a friend "I could do that, but I would do it better" after the Cooper hijacking, implying he hadn't done it himself
• .
• McCoy's hijacking was described as "a mess" compared to Cooper's well-executed plan
• • .
• While some authors and investigators have proposed that McCoy and Cooper were the same person

4. , this theory is not widely accepted by law enforcement or most Cooper researchers.

It's worth noting that the D.B. Cooper case remains unsolved, and McCoy's own story is intriguing in its own right. However, based on the available information, it appears that Richard McCoy and D.B. Cooper were likely two different individuals who committed similar crimes.

Link provided by AI source;

Edited August 3 by georger

[georger 230]

Chaos and anger envelop CooperCon 24 as Eric Ulis struggles to settle past debts    July 27, 2024 by brucesmith49

https://themountainnewswa.net/2024/07/27/chaos-and-anger-envelop-coopercon-24-as-eric-ulis-struggles-to-settle-past-debts/

 

Edited August 6 by georger

[The Cooper Vortex 92]

New episode out now! DB Cooper and Titanium with my good friend Stan Seagle.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-titanium-stan-seagle/

Enjoy!

[Cola 49]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:18 PM, olemisscub said:

 

 

Love the subtle recreated ticket stub clip, nice touch!

I do hold out hope that the ticket is in Cooper's handwriting and not Lynse.

The magazine parts and notes found on the plane which have yet to be released refer to printing thereon and possibly 4 witnesses having observed Coop's writing. Whether witnessing him write or just reading his writing could be debated.  Is it possible Lynse observed Cooper write?

 

Anyone have a photo of Bill Mitchell's ticket stub or other ticket stubs? Has Bill ever commented on who filled out his ticket?

My guess is that the 302's will never offer up any writing samples from Lynse or the compiled ticket stubs of the other passengers to look at for uniformity of penmanship across the stubs. Possibly there is a way to obtain a writing sample of Lynse.

[JAGdb 86]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

 

Love the subtle recreated ticket stub clip, nice touch!

I do hold out hope that the ticket is in Cooper's handwriting and not Lynse.

The magazine parts and notes found on the plane which have yet to be released refer to printing thereon and possibly 4 witnesses having observed Coop's writing. Whether witnessing him write or just reading his writing could be debated.  Is it possible Lynse observed Cooper write?

 

Anyone have a photo of Bill Mitchell's ticket stub or other ticket stubs? Has Bill ever commented on who filled out his ticket?

My guess is that the 302's will never offer up any writing samples from Lynse or the compiled ticket stubs of the other passengers to look at for uniformity of penmanship across the stubs. Possibly there is a way to obtain a writing sample of Lynse.

Hey Cola,  his stub is pictured in this article, there may be better pics somewhere else:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/9870482/db-cooper-passenger-hijacker-sketch-missed-detail-flight/

 

 

[georger 230]

NEWS:  CooperCon will occur in 2024 under new management with some truly great people! - at the Museum of Flight in Seattle as originally planned. It speaks for itself! This is huge welcome news!  

The announcement :   

Thank you Chris and Ryan! 

 

(Thanks guys! )

Edited August 9 by georger

[Chaucer 110]

4 hours ago, georger said:

NEWS:  CooperCon will occur in 2024 under new management with some truly great people! - at the Museum of Flight in Seattle as originally planned. It speaks for itself! This is huge welcome news!  

The announcement :   

Thank you Chris and Ryan! 

 

(Thanks guys! )

Would you be nice to have you come on out, G. I'll buy you a beer!

[Nicholas Broughton 67]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Would you be nice to have you come on out, G. I'll buy you a beer!

I second that!

[georger 230]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

I second that!

Thanks. I would love to but health issues make it unlikely. I want the focus to be on you guys who are the future of the Cooper case. The more I can support you, the better for everyone. I even wish Flyjack would come back! Dont forget for one second, it was Flyjack who stubbornly opened up accessibility to the FBI 302's - all billions of them. That effort alone opened the case up for millions of people to review and think about .... which is partly responsible for why we are where we are today. There are things I am still researching in the case which I will get to and want to post about. I am more than happy to watch Tom and you guys going forth. Let's see what the future holds .... the vortex has come a very long way in just two weeks! 

A year from today we will all know more than we know today. We have frankly come a very long way suddenly. Wow and Congrats!

 

Edited August 10 by georger

[JAGdb 86]

Well, why not memorialize it here,  Ryan, Chris and John mentioned on the recent podcast that the latest FBI vault drop (part 97) contains a letter from Gunther to the FBI telling them about the contact he had from someone claiming to be the hijacker or know hijacker (Clara).  The implication here is that Gunther wouldn't falsely mislead the FBI, which would be a crime, if he wasn't truly contacted by someone.  So the take away is that this letter from Gunther to the FBI suggests that someone really did reach out to Gunther and that part of the story was not made up.

Edited August 10 by JAGdb

[Chaucer 110]

6 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Well, why not memorialize it here,  Ryan, Chris and John mentioned on the recent podcast that the latest FBI vault drop (part 97) contains a letter from Gunther to the FBI telling them about the contact he had from someone claiming to be the hijacker or know hijacker (Clara).  The implication here is that Gunther wouldn't falsely mislead the FBI, which would be a crime, if he wasn't truly contacted by someone.  So the take away is that this letter from Gunther to the FBI suggests that someone really did reach out to Gunther and that part of the story was not made up.

The peculiar thing is that Gunther never mentions the letters he received years earlier from someone claiming to actually BE DB Cooper. My question is why? Wouldn't that be pertinent information to share with the FBI? 

[georger 230]

9 hours ago, Chaucer said:

The peculiar thing is that Gunther never mentions the letters he received years earlier from someone claiming to actually BE DB Cooper. My question is why? Wouldn't that be pertinent information to share with the FBI? 

Cooper made it very clear on the plane (almost an obsession) that he did not want to be interfered with or apprehended - he had a fear of sky marshals. He kept bringing it up over and over. I can't see Cooper changing his mind after the fact or doing anything to tempt fate. It may be tied to his grudge whatever that was. Maybe he changed his mind or softened later? That is basically what Gunher/Clara would have you believe. 

In fact, FJ was convinced Cooper tried to wipe off his prints. He asked for his note back. He took the briefcase with him etc etc. I just dont see this guy doing anything intentionally to reveal his identity or tempt fate. Unless he truly isnt too intelligent which seems to be Carr's profile of the man ? 

My profile of Cooper is a person following a 'tactical' plan, doing exactly what he asked people to do and following that script himself, either tactically trained or following a well thought out script almost to the letter, just as he himself said, and adapting where necessary. The right plane in the right place at the right time, to the letter. So far as I know that contrasts sharply with most other hijackings and its the reason behind why others called McCoy a 'copycat'. That is an acknowledgment of Cooper's tactically scripted performance. I wonder if he is a musician or a composer? I see strong math skills at working calculating the odds at every turn, if not literally then informally-subjectively. I dont think Cooper is going to contact an author or risk his identity being exposed unless that is part of his original plan ? I wonder what instruments he plays ?  

I have been waiting for 302s to reflect a public stance vs a non-public stance in which the FBI communicated they might be dealing with a highly trained motivated person ?  So far I havent seen the acknowledgement, if it existed ?  

Edited August 11 by georger

[sun-s3t 0]

16 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Well, why not memorialize it here,  Ryan, Chris and John mentioned on the recent podcast that the latest FBI vault drop (part 97) contains a letter from Gunther to the FBI telling them about the contact he had from someone claiming to be the hijacker or know hijacker (Clara).  The implication here is that Gunther wouldn't falsely mislead the FBI, which would be a crime, if he wasn't truly contacted by someone.  So the take away is that this letter from Gunther to the FBI suggests that someone really did reach out to Gunther and that part of the story was not made up.

I’ll admit to knowing little about Gunther (though his book is sitting on my shelf waiting to be read at some point). 

The skeptical side of me reads this and can’t help but wonder if he didn’t send this to give his forthcoming book an heir of legitimacy. 

If Gunther was contacted by the FBI, it doesn’t seem that hard to tell them a BS story without them catching him in a lie. Consistency is the key. As a journalist, he may have gotten a lot of calls from payphones back in the day. How could the FBI look at his phone records and know what was what?  

I’d love to find out it’s a legit clue.