georger 230 #63651 July 6 (edited) On 9/16/2023 at 10:52 AM, FLYJACK said: Now, Georger wants Tom or Larry to clarify... it is their responsibility to process the information.. not Georger's. It is somebody else's fault.. Georger is being dishonest.. They didn't have to ask Tina to describe the money because they already knew the packaging. There was more evidence than Tina's 302, For Tina's "bank-type bands" Georger claimed she really meant rubber bands not paper and that she was asked and confirmed rubber bands,, clearly a lie. Georger denied and ridiculed the existence of paper bands FOR YEARS. Same with the term packet. But I pointed out other evidence... Carr's false statement that the 3 TBAR "bundles" were each of a random count.. he conflated the term bundle and packet. The bundles of packets were randomized not the packets of 100 bills.. Georger could not grasp this error. Carr misunderstood. Then there was Himmelsbach, "There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands." There was also the 302 from the bank manager, paper bands and in $2000's... Jack Almstead also said the money in the bag looked like "Bricks" Tosaw…. Cooper money was in $2,000 packets of 100 bill each. individual packets were wrapped in paper bank bands, they also had a rubber band. Top Vortex researcher Georger still denied it... Why was this important.. The dominant narrative in the VORTEX was that each bundle was only rubber banded... there were rubber band frags but no clear indication where they were,, and for three packets to arrive on TBAR and stay together they must have been planted or arrived in a container. This heavily restricted the means by which the money could have arrived. But, if there were paper bands on the packets and rubber banded into a single bundle then the means by which the money could arrive is expanded. Claiming Georger is the most credible researcher for the TBAR money has to be a joke. Nobody has been so wrong for so long.. So, when Georger calls Palmer's statement BS with no evidence just to fit his narrative,, he is expressing his lack of credibility just as he did for years with the money... Now that the money packaging has reached critical mass amongst the Vortex members rather than just me,, Georger cracks... the evidence hasn't changed only peer pressure. What was FJ doing here ? Playing Gotcha ? Trying to destroy Georger's credibility? Why? The money is a forensic problem, not a political Social Issue between forum personalities ! 1. The Ingrams saw no paper bank straps. 2. What does Tina mean by 'bank straps" - nobody will even bother to ask here. 3. Didnt Carr post the bank security man saying paper straps were left off the Cooper money for security reasons? 4. Paper bank straps dissolve like aspirin in water? 5. FBI agents spent time trying to nail this issue down - why? etc etc etc 2. A paper chemist in Escanaba MI chimes in and offers a thought: 'Maybe degraded bank bands were on the money and the Ingrams just didn't recognize them. Maybe the strap remnants got washed away by the Ingrams during their cleaning process? The FBI Lab looked at the money and never mentioned finding any paper strap remnants. Ive never seen Kraft paper paper dissolve instantly when exposed to water or humidity. Why isnt there a document from the FBI or the bank stating clearing how the money was packaged, if this is important? Does flood money sent in to the Treasury Dept Lab still have paper bank straps still intact? ................... 3. Why is there so much invective and hysteria over this tiny issue in the Cooper Vortex? 4. What does the rotational axis in bills Tom found say about the presence or absence of paper straps on the money? Does the rotational axis of these bills suggest there was in fact a bank strap in the middle, vs bands ??? How and when did these bills rotate about a central axis ? Something accounts for the rotational geometry Tom documented below. Edited July 6 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 47 #63652 July 7 7 hours ago, georger said: What was FJ doing here ? Playing Gotcha ? Trying to destroy Georger's credibility? Why? The money is a forensic problem, not a political Social Issue between forum personalities ! 1. The Ingrams saw no paper bank straps. 2. What does Tina mean by 'bank straps" - nobody will even bother to ask here. 3. Didnt Carr post the bank security man saying paper straps were left off the Cooper money for security reasons? 4. Paper bank straps dissolve like aspirin in water? 5. FBI agents spent time trying to nail this issue down - why? etc etc etc 2. A paper chemist in Escanaba MI chimes in and offers a thought: 'Maybe degraded bank bands were on the money and the Ingrams just didn't recognize them. Maybe the strap remnants got washed away by the Ingrams during their cleaning process? The FBI Lab looked at the money and never mentioned finding any paper strap remnants. Ive never seen Kraft paper paper dissolve instantly when exposed to water or humidity. Why isnt there a document from the FBI or the bank stating clearing how the money was packaged, if this is important? Does flood money sent in to the Treasury Dept Lab still have paper bank straps still intact? ................... 3. Why is there so much invective and hysteria over this tiny issue in the Cooper Vortex? 4. What does the rotational axis in bills Tom found say about the presence or absence of paper straps on the money? Does the rotational axis of these bills suggest there was in fact a bank strap in the middle, vs bands ??? How and when did these bills rotate about a central axis ? Something accounts for the rotational geometry Tom documented below. Georger, I have discussed the meaning of the rotation of this pack of bills in any number of posts over probably the last 10 years. Obviously, you didn't bother to read those posts or have a really bad memory. So do read the following. The rotation means that the bills were NOT BOUND by anything in the middle of the pack when found. The rotation does mean that the bills were at least LOOSELY BOUND, or had been bound, by something on the left section (as seen above) of the pack. There is apparently not any information available on any bindings, rubber or paper, that was found on this pack of bills. In view of the overall matter, the bills were probably rotated by water action at the location where they were found. If the pack's orientation had been noted when it was found, then further conclusions as to how the pack got there might have been possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63653 July 7 (edited) 16 hours ago, Robert99 said: Georger, I have discussed the meaning of the rotation of this pack of bills in any number of posts over probably the last 10 years. Obviously, you didn't bother to read those posts or have a really bad memory. So do read the following. The rotation means that the bills were NOT BOUND by anything in the middle of the pack when found. The rotation does mean that the bills were at least LOOSELY BOUND, or had been bound, by something on the left section (as seen above) of the pack. There is apparently not any information available on any bindings, rubber or paper, that was found on this pack of bills. In view of the overall matter, the bills were probably rotated by water action at the location where they were found. If the pack's orientation had been noted when it was found, then further conclusions as to how the pack got there might have been possible. Thanks for bringing your points about rotation back up again! Problems with your theory: (a) cemented bills cant rotate. The bills did not arrive on TBar cemented ? Rotation had to have occurred before the bills were cemented which takes time (b) I actually agree with your analysis, as far as it goes. No constraint on bills in the middle or on the right side of the bundle. So no strap in middle. No band on right side ....... it would appear. (c) When did this rotation happen - many options. Including impact with the ground. Could displacement of bills within bundles have happened on impact of the bag with the ground, having nothing to do with Tena Bar and water pressure? Are there other instances of bills out of alignment in other bundles? Thanks to the Court ruling we dont have any other examples to examine! Brilliant move the Court made. Somebody needs to find the Globe bills! Tom needs more bills or pieces of bills to examine! Edited July 7 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63654 July 7 (edited) NEW - OLD - SURPRISE A hellish time-consuming search of Ckret posts about his research on the money turned this up! Sit down for this one. IMPORTANT*** BAG HAD NAME SEAFIRST ON IT! Ckret Apr 24, 2008, 6:35 PM Post #1536 of 10320 (1714 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 522 Re: [maurico] John Collins Commutation Order (from Skyjack) [In reply to] Can't Post New info on the bag, it actually could best be described as a sack (this is a test, I want to see who will run into the ground a debate on the difference between a bag and a sack). It was not canvas but some type of cloth. Have you ever seen cartoons with the bank robber running out of the bank holding a money sack with the dollar sign on it. Thats what it was but it had the SeaFirst name on it. I should have a picture of it in a few days. The attached is a picture of a money sack or bag. (This post was edited by Ckret on Apr 24, 2008, 6:37 PM) Attachments: CB007965.jpg (75.5 KB) Georger replied: So much for Seafirst not wanting Cooper to see where the money was coming from! Why didn't Grinnel mention this ? Somebody go back to Grinnel and ask! Where is the photo of the Seafirst bag Ckret mentions - anyone have it ? Edited July 8 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63655 July 8 (edited) A real 1970s Seafirst bank sack, not canvas but cloth, perhaps what Agent Carr posted ?. Available on eBay. It may be easier to see how a cloth bag would tear open vs a canvas bag ? Ckret posted his thought - that the money got to Tena Bar via a snag with debris moving down the Columbia. In that scenario the integrity of the container becomes import: cloth vs canvas. And, it might have been easier to Cooper to since up a cloth bag vs a canvas bag ? I am making these because I think the money discussion is not over, Flyjack, Kaye, Carr, and Ulis notwithstanding. Imho the money issue is an ongoing problem unsolved. Otherewise I might be a madman just spinning off posts for the hell of it. Sometimes I feel this is a fruitless madness with no end in sight. When anyone can tell us how an when the money got to TBar where the Ingrams found it then that will be time to stop! Thanks for your patience! Edited July 8 by georger change photo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicholas Broughton 68 #63656 July 8 From TK: Stub UPDATE! I am happy to report that stub 675 which is from the tie knot will be delivered to McCrone this week. 675 should have lots of particles that came from his finger tips and holds the most unusual particles like the titanium antimony. I decided that we should go full bore on the best possible stub and told McCrone we want longer dwell times on each particle and go to the max on the number of particles to analyze. McCrone has assured us that the techniques they are using today are far more advanced than what we used back in 2017. We are expecting to get better analysis of particles we know to be on the stub as well as many never before seen particles. McCone said they have a "window" right now and should be able to get it scanned sooner than later. Myself and the rest of the particle team are anxiously awaiting the results and we will keep you posted as new things emerge. Unfortunately we will not be able to confirm the new particles until I get back to my lab beginning of October so lets keep our heads until final confirmation happens. New data! Exciting times! Tom Kaye 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicholas Broughton 68 #63657 July 8 Yesterday I became one of only 33 non licensed skydivers in the world to have jumped a passenger jet. Blue skies! https://skydive.shredvideo.com/f/77ZJE6xB40 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 488 #63658 July 8 19 hours ago, georger said: This is what mine looks like. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 311 #63659 July 9 1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said: Yesterday I became one of only 33 non licensed skydivers in the world to have jumped a passenger jet. Congratulations! Looks like you did a great job and had fun. Good on ya, dude! That guy right behind you in the exit lineup is Scott Smith, a longtime jumper. He's done some Hollywood stuff, and and was involved in training David Blaine for that balloon thing he did a while back. Again, congrats!! 1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said: Blue skies! Black Death! ----------------- (Apologies to georger) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63660 July 9 2 hours ago, dudeman17 said: Congratulations! Looks like you did a great job and had fun. Good on ya, dude! That guy right behind you in the exit lineup is Scott Smith, a longtime jumper. He's done some Hollywood stuff, and and was involved in training David Blaine for that balloon thing he did a while back. Again, congrats!! Black Death! ----------------- (Apologies to georger) Congrats! Wow! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63661 July 9 (edited) 4 hours ago, olemisscub said: This is what mine looks like. Thanks for the confirmation. OMG. we now have one confirmed fact in the DB Cooper case. Everyone agrees on! A milestone and omen. Tom called today but I missed his call. Will connect later. But he said he is back in Wyoming hard at it. He sounded good... Edited July 9 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cola 49 #63662 July 9 23 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said: From TK: Stub UPDATE! I am happy to report that stub 675 which is from the tie knot will be delivered to McCrone this week. 675 should have lots of particles that came from his finger tips and holds the most unusual particles like the titanium antimony. I decided that we should go full bore on the best possible stub and told McCrone we want longer dwell times on each particle and go to the max on the number of particles to analyze. McCrone has assured us that the techniques they are using today are far more advanced than what we used back in 2017. We are expecting to get better analysis of particles we know to be on the stub as well as many never before seen particles. McCone said they have a "window" right now and should be able to get it scanned sooner than later. Myself and the rest of the particle team are anxiously awaiting the results and we will keep you posted as new things emerge. Unfortunately we will not be able to confirm the new particles until I get back to my lab beginning of October so lets keep our heads until final confirmation happens. New data! Exciting times! Tom Kaye I have no working knowledge of stubs and I would bet against this thought but I'd like to know. Tom mentioned Nickle contamination in the original stubs I'm guessing stubs embed the particles in some type semisolid gel. Is there a possibility of doing a stub transfer form the old stubs to new stubs leaving the contamination of nickle behind? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63663 July 9 59 minutes ago, Cola said: I have no working knowledge of stubs and I would bet against this thought but I'd like to know. Tom mentioned Nickle contamination in the original stubs I'm guessing stubs embed the particles in some type semisolid gel. Is there a possibility of doing a stub transfer form the old stubs to new stubs leaving the contamination of nickle behind? No. Violates protocols and risks further contamination. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63664 July 9 (edited) Offer - free Tena Bar area sand samples collected by Meyer Louie during several surveying missions, many years ago ... The box consists of 4 bagged sand samples collected at Tena Bar and at the area of the long wing dam north of Tena Bar near the Lewis river outlet on 10-01-2018 If anyone wants these sand samples. Will ship to any interested party cost free - shipping paid. Just PM me with your name and an address. I can also provide all of the emails between Myer and myself that explain these samples and where Meyer collected them. anyone interested? Edited July 9 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 311 #63665 July 10 23 hours ago, georger said: Congrats! Wow! I'm guessing that you just mistakenly clicked 'quote' on the wrong post, but congratulate Nick, not me, haha! (And my apology to you was for the 'social media' type post.) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63666 July 10 5 hours ago, dudeman17 said: I'm guessing that you just mistakenly clicked 'quote' on the wrong post, but congratulate Nick, not me, haha! (And my apology to you was for the 'social media' type post.) sorry ............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63667 July 10 13 hours ago, georger said: Offer - free Tena Bar area sand samples collected by Meyer Louie during several surveying missions, many years ago ... The box consists of 4 bagged sand samples collected at Tena Bar and at the area of the long wing dam north of Tena Bar near the Lewis river outlet on 10-01-2018 If anyone wants these sand samples. Will ship to any interested party cost free - shipping paid. Just PM me with your name and an address. I can also provide all of the emails between Myer and myself that explain these samples and where Meyer collected them. anyone interested? The Tena Bar sediment is taken. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Cooper Vortex 92 #63668 July 10 New episode out now! DB Cooper was not Han Solo with my good friend Tim Wallace! https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-not-han-solo-tim-wallace/ Enjoy! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
c99acer 7 #63669 July 11 On 7/7/2024 at 10:34 PM, georger said: A real 1970s Seafirst bank sack, not canvas but cloth, perhaps what Agent Carr posted ?. Available on eBay. It may be easier to see how a cloth bag would tear open vs a canvas bag ? Ckret posted his thought - that the money got to Tena Bar via a snag with debris moving down the Columbia. In that scenario the integrity of the container becomes import: cloth vs canvas. And, it might have been easier to Cooper to since up a cloth bag vs a canvas bag ? I am making these because I think the money discussion is not over, Flyjack, Kaye, Carr, and Ulis notwithstanding. Imho the money issue is an ongoing problem unsolved. Otherewise I might be a madman just spinning off posts for the hell of it. Sometimes I feel this is a fruitless madness with no end in sight. When anyone can tell us how an when the money got to TBar where the Ingrams found it then that will be time to stop! Thanks for your patience! On 7/7/2024 at 10:34 PM, georger said: When anyone can tell us how an when the money got to TBar where the Ingrams found it then that will be time to stop! Look to the family that discovered the money. Ingram (senior) told us how he became involved when the Colbert Team interviewed him. See the clue at the 60 minute mark of episode one on the 2016 History Channel "Case Closed" documentary. Diatoms, rubber band frags, and money tell some parts of story - now listen to those closest to the find for missing details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63670 July 12 (edited) 22 hours ago, c99acer said: Look to the family that discovered the money. Ingram (senior) told us how he became involved when the Colbert Team interviewed him. See the clue at the 60 minute mark of episode one on the 2016 History Channel "Case Closed" documentary. Diatoms, rubber band frags, and money tell some parts of story - now listen to those closest to the find for missing details. well ..... we've been through all of this before. There is no evidence for your point of view/contentions. It is all conjecture. Clue ? Maybe the dinosaurs went extinct because of eating hemp and mushrooms? I doubt it but what the hell ............! Anything for a tv program and a book. Edited July 12 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63671 July 13 (edited) Could Tom's work have been done by the FBI in 1971 - basically No! The FBI did not have an electron microscope in 1971 when investigating the D.B. Cooper case . This suggests that the adoption of electron microscopy by the FBI came sometime after this date. In more recent times, the FBI has used electron microscopy for forensic analysis of evidence. For example: In the anthrax investigation of 2001 (known as Amerithrax), the FBI utilized both Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM) and Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM) to analyze the anthrax spores used in the attacks . This helped them determine the physical characteristics of the spores, including size, shape, and quality. The FBI collaborated with various laboratories, including Sandia National Laboratories, to examine evidence using electron microscopy. In the anthrax case, they examined over 200 samples using TEM . Electron microscopy has been particularly valuable for the FBI in: Analyzing trace evidence, such as particles found on clothing or other items . Characterizing the composition and structure of suspicious materials . Supporting investigations into potential bioterrorism incidents . The use of electron microscopy by the FBI has evolved over time. Initially, it was likely used for basic imaging and analysis of evidence. However, as the technology advanced, the FBI incorporated more sophisticated techniques such as: Energy-Dispersive X-Ray Microanalysis (EDX) for elemental analysis . High-resolution imaging for detailed structural analysis . The FBI has also recognized the value of citizen scientists using electron microscopy. In the D.B. Cooper case, they allowed citizen sleuths to examine evidence using an electron microscope, which led to new insights about the case . While the exact date of the FBI's first use of an electron microscope is not provided in the search results, it's clear that the technology has become an important tool in their forensic investigations, particularly for analyzing trace evidence and in cases involving potential biological agents. ref: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/when-did-the-fbi-first-use-an-aw9.VQPMQAGQIwbtgndsPA Edited July 13 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63672 July 13 (edited) Was the DB Cooper hijacking a Political crime ? Based on the search results provided, there is no indication that the D.B. Cooper hijacking was a political crime. The evidence suggests it was motivated by personal financial gain rather than any political agenda: Cooper demanded $200,000 in ransom money (equivalent to about $1.2 million today), which indicates a financial motive . He did not make any political statements or demands during the hijacking. His interactions were described as polite and businesslike . The FBI investigation, which lasted for decades, did not uncover any political motivations behind the crime . Cooper's actions inspired several copycat crimes in the following years, but these were also financially motivated hijackings rather than political acts . The case is consistently described as a hijacking for personal gain, with Cooper being referred to as a "criminal" rather than a political activist or terrorist . The D.B. Cooper hijacking appears to have been a daring heist motivated by financial gain, which captured public imagination due to its mysterious nature and the fact that Cooper was never identified or caught. The lack of any political demands or statements during or after the incident strongly suggests that this was not a political crime. Q: Did the classification of the crime direct the investigation of the crime and the search for Dan Cooper? Q: Did the investigation ignore Cooper's statement to Tina: "I have a grudge". ? Edited July 13 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63673 July 13 Was Cooper's tie his own personal tie ? Based on the available information, it's unclear whether the tie was D.B. Cooper's personal tie or not. However, there are some key points to consider: The tie in question was a black clip-on JCPenney Towncraft #3 tie that Cooper left behind on the plane before parachuting out . No one else on the plane claimed ownership of the tie, suggesting it likely belonged to Cooper . The tie has become a crucial piece of evidence in the investigation. Forensic analysis of the tie has revealed some interesting details: Particles found on the tie point to the aerospace sector, specifically a company called Crucible Steel . The particles include a titanium/steel alloy that wasn't used in airliners but in high-performance combat aircraft . These findings have led some investigators to believe Cooper may have had connections to the aerospace industry . However, it's important to note that there's no definitive proof that the tie actually belonged to Cooper . Some investigators have suggested that if Cooper was planning a major crime, he might have worn clothes purchased from thrift stores to make it harder to track him down . The FBI has a partial DNA sample from the tie, but it's not sufficient to positively identify a suspect. It can only be used to eliminate potential suspects While the tie is a crucial piece of evidence, its exact provenance remains uncertain. The forensic evidence it has yielded has provided valuable clues about Cooper's possible background, but it hasn't definitively established whether the tie was his personal property or acquired specifically for the hijacking. ref: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/was-cooper-s-tie-his-own-perso-jnD9QMOTRG2.ULQpfZk6ug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 47 #63674 July 14 5 hours ago, georger said: Was Cooper's tie his own personal tie ?. The tie has become a crucial piece of evidence in the investigation. Forensic analysis of the tie has revealed some interesting details: Particles found on the tie point to the aerospace sector, specifically a company called Crucible Steel . The particles include a titanium/steel alloy that wasn't used in airliners but in high-performance combat aircraft . These findings have led some investigators to believe Cooper may have had connections to the aerospace industry. Georger, how about explaining what exactly you mean by "high-performance combat aircraft" in this context. Do you have specific aircraft in mind? Fighters or bombers? And exactly where was this "titanium/steel alloy" used in those aircraft? In the airframe, engine, or where? My main professional interest is/was Flight Dynamics (meaning performance and stability and control) but that required a bit of knowledge about everything else for each aircraft. And remember we are talking about 1971 and earlier aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 230 #63675 July 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, Robert99 said: Georger, how about explaining what exactly you mean by "high-performance combat aircraft" in this context. Do you have specific aircraft in mind? Fighters or bombers? And exactly where was this "titanium/steel alloy" used in those aircraft? In the airframe, engine, or where? My main professional interest is/was Flight Dynamics (meaning performance and stability and control) but that required a bit of knowledge about everything else for each aircraft. And remember we are talking about 1971 and earlier aircraft. Ask https://www.perplexity.ai/search/was-cooper-s-tie-his-own-perso-jnD9QMOTRG2.ULQpfZk6ug or Tom Kaye or Eric Ulis. Ich habe das nicht geschrieben. https://people.com/new-evidence-discovered-db-cooper-skyjacking-case-uncovers-potential-suspect-8425325 Edited July 14 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
