DB Cooper

[olemisscub 487]

Show I did with Tom last night. 

 

[georger 230]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Show I did with Tom last night. 

 

No time left for it ........... time has expired. Good luck to future generations with the DB Cooper media case. May the best media people win.

Edited June 19 by georger

[Cola 49]

Cooper's $20:

Cooper likley paid for the drink with a $20 with the intent of bringing Flo back to him with the change. He wanted to create a reason for Flo to have another encounter with him.

Bill Mitchell recalled Coops spilling his drink. If that is true, this may have occurred after the change was provided and as a further ploy to bring Flo over and tend to him so that he could then pass the note and initiate the job.

What are we dealing with here? Is this someone with the capacity to on the fly obscure his actions and manipulate his environment to elicit a desired response?

I think so.

[Cola 49]

On 6/19/2024 at 7:55 PM, georger said:

No time left for it ........... time has expired. Good luck to future generations with the DB Cooper media case. May the best media people win.

 

The case has not expired and this is not a media competition. Ryan's work should not be seen exclusively as Coopertainment.

Going through the 302’s and the case evidence is labor intensive. I would trade the labor of 8 weeks or more of scrolling through 45,000 pages and picking them apart, but not the experience and insight of that effort.

Ryan’s done this hard work also, but he took that experience and added to it the additional step of producing content. He's done a great thing in the last year of synthesized a number of areas within the 302's.

On the whole his productions have made the reported facts of the case and some base assertions of the 302's vastly more consumable and accessible to a general audience.

 No one in the history of the vortex has ever drilled in on the 302's like this and then taken the time to create the content to bring an awareness of these reported facts to the Vortex.

He’s myth busting here also, helping us with historical discovery and context, and keeping us on the known facts. I think because he is putting himself out publicly that he is conservative in his assessments and applies a high standard to what he produces. After all he’s got to stick to the facts to avoid being criticized for creating myth.

And I have not seen a single post dinging him for misrepresenting or misreporting the known facts or holding his thoughts or beliefs out as fact.

Media has always been part of the investigative process here. Carr used the media to reinvigorate the public interest in the case and hopefully shake something loose.

Maybe Ryan's media will shake something loose one day.

"You never know"

Edited June 21 by Cola

[olemisscub 487]

On 6/19/2024 at 5:36 PM, Cola said:

Cooper's $20:

Cooper likley paid for the drink with a $20 with the intent of bringing Flo back to him with the change. He wanted to create a reason for Flo to have another encounter with him.

Bill Mitchell recalled Coops spilling his drink. If that is true, this may have occurred after the change was provided and as a further ploy to bring Flo over and tend to him so that he could then pass the note and initiate the job.

What are we dealing with here? Is this someone with the capacity to on the fly obscure his actions and manipulate his environment to elicit a desired response?

I think so.

I'd argue that you're overthinking it. I try not to ascribe Cooper with the ability to play 4D Chess. What if Flo had change for him right then and there? I don't see the need to create extra scenarios with Flo. It's likely he knew the stews would be sitting in their jump seats directly behind him once the plane began to taxi to the runway. Recall that she was already sitting down in her jump seat when Cooper passed her the note. She said she had been buckled for about 30 seconds when it occurred. So he really never needed to have any superfluous interactions with her. 

Also, I don't believe Flo was ever aware that he spilled his drink. Seems like something she'd have mentioned in her 302. I believe that Cooper had already downed his drink by the time he spilled it. I speculate that all he spilled was the ice that remained, which of course is pretty easy to clean up yourself. No need to get a stewardess involved. 

[olemisscub 487]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

 

 No one in the history of the vortex has ever drilled in on the 302's like this and then taken the time to create the content to bring an awareness of these reported facts to the Vortex.

Jeez, what a glowing review. Who do I make the check out to? lol

Edited June 21 by olemisscub

[Cola 49]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

ability to play 4D Chess.

touche, you sunk my supposition.

I guess I do think on Mark's story a little too often

"When I was working at the Public Defender's office in Oakland CA, I had a seasoned old cop tell me, over donuts no less, that I didnt know criminals at all. He said: "Kid... you just know the dumb ones because you only deal with the ones who get caught."

- or maybe not.

 

[olemisscub 487]

9 hours ago, Cola said:

touche, you sunk my supposition.

I guess I do think on Mark's story a little too often

"When I was working at the Public Defender's office in Oakland CA, I had a seasoned old cop tell me, over donuts no less, that I didnt know criminals at all. He said: "Kid... you just know the dumb ones because you only deal with the ones who get caught."

- or maybe not.

 

Well, I'm not saying Cooper was completely without the ability to think about things in a clever way. He very obviously had divergent thinking to be able to come up with the heist. Spilling his drink on purpose seems a bit too much for me to believe in. However, I do think the timing of when he passed the note was something he did no purpose. Rataczak said that he received Tina's call literally while Scott was still pulling back on the yoke. They were essentially rolling down the runway as Cooper began the hijacking. I've considered that this was done on purpose because the noise and distraction of takeoff would have covered what he was saying to Flo. Consider that Bill remembers seeing Flo sitting next to Cooper writing something down but couldn't hear what was being said, despite the fact that Flo and Cooper were less than five feet away from him. So perhaps the engine noise during takeoff and climbing were to cover the conversation. 

Tina did say that Cooper was whispering to her for much of the time they were talking, but Flo didn't indicate that Cooper was whispering when speaking to her. 

[Cola 49]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Well, I'm not saying Cooper was completely without the ability to think about things in a clever way. He very obviously had divergent thinking to be able to come up with the heist. Spilling his drink on purpose seems a bit too much for me to believe in. However, I do think the timing of when he passed the note was something he did no purpose. Rataczak said that he received Tina's call literally while Scott was still pulling back on the yoke. They were essentially rolling down the runway as Cooper began the hijacking. I've considered that this was done on purpose because the noise and distraction of takeoff would have covered what he was saying to Flo. Consider that Bill remembers seeing Flo sitting next to Cooper writing something down but couldn't hear what was being said, despite the fact that Flo and Cooper were less than five feet away from him. So perhaps the engine noise during takeoff and climbing were to cover the conversation. 

Tina did say that Cooper was whispering to her for much of the time they were talking, but Flo didn't indicate that Cooper was whispering when speaking to her. 

 

"That is both excellent and good enough"

[georger 230]

Just rambling:   Cooper said he had a grudge, but gave no further details. Tina did not press him for details and the FBI did not pursue it after the fact. Carr says Cooper was a 'dumb ass'. Carr means that literally.  Carr may think that all bank robbers and hijackers are 'dumb asses' ?  But that does not get us very far toward solving who Cooper was.

The next clue is Cooper's money demand. Cooper needed or wanted spendable money. So we have 'grudge + needs money' which could fit many people and scenarios. Needs money. Needs quite a  lot of money in 1971 life. Tina should have asked Cooper: 'are you going to spend the money immediately or put it in a savings account?' 

One possible reason for needing $200k and having a grudge in 1971 is to solve an IRS problem ? All 'dumb asses' in 1971 had IRS problems, sooner or later?

Cooper's identity and name may be on the IRS docket of people the IRS was dealing with in 1971? Did anyone bother to check the list of 'dumb asses' who had parachuting skills, who the IRS was dealing with in 1971? Is Barb Dayton on that list?  

We also have 'needs money' + 'a tie with very rare metallic particles on it'. So, search IRS files of people who work in top secret industries + plus have a grudge + who have made threats to do something to get back at the government' + have an IRS problem ....   in 1971 there is a long list of those people ...  

Some combination of simple facts leads to Cooper. That is 100% guaranteed. In today's world an AI search of the facts and people on Earth in 1971 could lead or get close to who Cooper was, and a name? The tools must fit the demands of the search. The FBI did not have that option in 1971.  Ask *Perplexity who Cooper was based on ...... facts. And stop all the *%ucking around" with this case!

         

Edited June 21 by georger

[dudeman17 311]

2 hours ago, georger said:

an AI search of the facts and people on Earth in 1971 could lead or get close to who Cooper was, and a name?

I'm not all that tech savvy, I don't know if this is even possible, but if it is, I've wondered if someone fed an AI program all of the sketches and descriptions and told it to scour the internet for matching photos taken between '60 and '80, if it might come up with viable suspects to investigate?

[Oli Vers 6]

16 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I'm not all that tech savvy, I don't know if this is even possible, but if it is, I've wondered if someone fed an AI program all of the sketches and descriptions and told it to scour the internet for matching photos taken between '60 and '80, if it might come up with viable suspects to investigate?

In order to do that, someone has to upload a ton of photos from the 60' and 80' to the internet and put some references up along with them.
Don't forget the internet as you know it, did not exist until the late 90'

[dudeman17 311]

2 hours ago, Oli Vers said:

In order to do that, someone has to upload a ton of photos from the 60' and 80' to the internet and put some references up along with them.
Don't forget the internet as you know it, did not exist until the late 90'

I get that, but I'm guessing that there are a lot of old photos on the internet on various historical archive type sites?

Edited June 22 by dudeman17

[georger 230]

5 hours ago, Oli Vers said:

In order to do that, someone has to upload a ton of photos from the 60' and 80' to the internet and put some references up along with them.
Don't forget the internet as you know it, did not exist until the late 90'

The details of the AI search paradigm will determine the results returned. The paradigm can be very specific or general or something in-between. If parachuting is a heavily weighted sorting parameter, then results favoring parachuting will result whether "parachuting" had much to do  with the real Cooper or not. 

I am assuming Cooper's grudge was specific in nature if he was being truthful.. A personal issue. There is little doubt he knew what he was doing could have serious consequences if people did not cooperate. It remains to be seen if parachuting is a major element of Cooper's life. I doubt Cooper hijacking a 727 in order to prove someone could parachute from a commercial jet and get paid $200k for doing it! I think that can be eliminated from any AI search. 

[georger 230]

11 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I'm not all that tech savvy, I don't know if this is even possible, but if it is, I've wondered if someone fed an AI program all of the sketches and descriptions and told it to scour the internet for matching photos taken between '60 and '80, if it might come up with viable suspects to investigate?

Something very specific makes the search easier-faster. In the case of the Unabomber it came down to syntax in writings and articles (in the Chicago area) with a former secretary in Chicago recognizing a similarity to writings she had proof-read years earlier, written by Ted K. That suspicion communicated to the FBI lead directly to the identification and arrest of Ted Kaczynsk.

Similar identifying connections exist for every human who has ever existed on Earth. The numbers are no issue with AI. Much larger sorting and identification problems are being processed every day. What is missing is the people to do it and the selection of search parameters.

Tom's whole particle list could be one tiny facet of a larger more penetrating search - or if nothing else then a clarification of the problem at hand as it relates to what is needed that would identify DB Cooper. Very few people in the Cooper Vortex have even asked: what would be required to conduct an AI search on DB Cooper. ? What does an AI Search require ?  Facts vs supposition and speculation. Someone's psychological profile of Cooper would be meaningless/useless to AI. Statistical estimates must be as accurate as possible. Facts entered determine the outcome with AI. But, AI will even suggest a few methods or avenues to try. AI is not witless but a cooperative venture. That is one of its virtues. You might be surprised at what AI can contribute to the Cooper dilemma ...   why not try it. And the sooner the better. 

There are many AI platforms available. One designed for public use is PerplexityAI Give it a try: .  https://www.perplexity.ai/search/Who-was-DB-fSQWY9iNTCayh671XsjBxA

Maybe we could get Snowmman to come back and give an opinion?

 

 

Edited June 22 by georger

[Oli Vers 6]

I think you keep forgetting that the internet wasn't around at that time and there won't be much metadata floating around for AI to parse through. Records from the decades before the internet only exist on paper and that only, if someone thought it's worthy writing down. AI these days lives of metadata we leave behind by everything and anything we do online, especially social media and wikis. it doesn't matter how great your AI model is, if there is nothing to feed it with, it can't perform.

[georger 230]

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/did-the-government-PCyZgz3WRAyMLANTrJMXsQ

AI is more than a a records search. https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-best-to-ufciCk..QLOrlydLZ_SJhg

[georger 230]

what did DB Cooper reveal about himself during the hijacking ? and related issues -

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-did-DB-uEDyJ_5BTKanpYvWKBwKVw

Cooper added other information about himself during the flight - this data should be added to any search ... 

For example: Cooper told Tina Minnesota was "nice country". What was the basis for his comment? The number of options are small but a fact of Cooper's personal history.

 

[georger 230]

where were titanium and other rare earth metals being used most in the 1970s ... https://www.perplexity.ai/search/where-were-titanium-hrML1A_oQ3aUq6bTCn4sRg

OK I will stop. Good hunting ...

[georger 230]

Well one more: helping people THINK! 

D.B. Cooper's comment about Minnesota being "nice country" was made during a conversation with flight attendant Tina Mucklow while the hijacked airplane circled Seattle. When Mucklow mentioned she was living in Minneapolis, Cooper responded with this remark. This interaction is documented in FBI records and interviews with those involved in the hijacking.  https://www.perplexity.ai/search/DB-Cooper-told-YvbaP.pSTXq0ToeK72hCOw

OK. I am done. I promise! Maybe a brainless AI computer program knows more about the DB Cooper case, than anyone in the Vortex does or ever will know !?  Until something tangible emerges, if it ever will, this case will flounder.  

Edited June 22 by georger

[Oli Vers 6]

My answer was in regards to this post here

 

[georger 230]

well said!  Hilarius.

 

Edited June 22 by georger

[dudeman17 311]

My first post was simply about photos, looking for potential new suspects. Georger has added the idea of much more information, which is fine. But...

9 hours ago, Oli Vers said:

I think you keep forgetting that the internet wasn't around at that time and there won't be much metadata floating around for AI to parse through.

Again, I understand your point. My supposition (guess?) is that there are a lot of old photos (and information) that have been uploaded to the internet.

Edited June 23 by dudeman17

[WalterRaleigh 9]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:47 PM, dudeman17 said:

I'm not all that tech savvy, I don't know if this is even possible, but if it is, I've wondered if someone fed an AI program all of the sketches and descriptions and told it to scour the internet for matching photos taken between '60 and '80, if it might come up with viable suspects to investigate?

This isn't on point, but I did once ask Chat GPT about dredges and the Tena Bar money:

 

 

What about a sack of waterlogged cash?

ChatGPT

A sack of waterlogged cash entering a hydraulic dredge would likely get shredded or damaged by the machinery. The force and blades within the dredge are designed to break down materials, so the waterlogged cash would likely not survive intact. Additionally, the presence of foreign objects like a sack of cash could potentially disrupt the dredging process and require additional cleanup or maintenance.

 

What if the dredge only uses suction, no blades?

ChatGPT

If the dredge only uses suction and does not have blades or other mechanical components designed to break down materials, then a sack of waterlogged cash might have a higher chance of surviving relatively intact. However, the force of the suction could still cause damage to the sack and its contents, especially if it's subjected to significant pressure or turbulence within the dredge. Additionally, the presence of foreign objects like the sack of cash could still potentially disrupt the dredging process and require additional attention or maintenance.

 

Would damage to the edges of the bills, such as rounded off corners, be consistent with the expected damage?

ChatGPT

Damage to the edges of bills, such as rounded off corners, could indeed be consistent with the expected damage if a sack of waterlogged cash were to pass through a dredge, especially one that uses suction. The turbulent forces within the dredge could cause the bills to rub against each other or against the walls of the dredge, resulting in abrasions and rounding off of corners. However, the extent of the damage would depend on various factors such as the strength of the suction, the material of the bills, and the duration of exposure within the dredge.

[georger 230]

2 hours ago, WalterRaleigh said:

This isn't on point, but I did once ask Chat GPT about dredges and the Tena Bar money:

 

 

What about a sack of waterlogged cash?

ChatGPT

A sack of waterlogged cash entering a hydraulic dredge would likely get shredded or damaged by the machinery. The force and blades within the dredge are designed to break down materials, so the waterlogged cash would likely not survive intact. Additionally, the presence of foreign objects like a sack of cash could potentially disrupt the dredging process and require additional cleanup or maintenance.

 

What if the dredge only uses suction, no blades?

ChatGPT

If the dredge only uses suction and does not have blades or other mechanical components designed to break down materials, then a sack of waterlogged cash might have a higher chance of surviving relatively intact. However, the force of the suction could still cause damage to the sack and its contents, especially if it's subjected to significant pressure or turbulence within the dredge. Additionally, the presence of foreign objects like the sack of cash could still potentially disrupt the dredging process and require additional attention or maintenance.

 

Would damage to the edges of the bills, such as rounded off corners, be consistent with the expected damage?

ChatGPT

Damage to the edges of bills, such as rounded off corners, could indeed be consistent with the expected damage if a sack of waterlogged cash were to pass through a dredge, especially one that uses suction. The turbulent forces within the dredge could cause the bills to rub against each other or against the walls of the dredge, resulting in abrasions and rounding off of corners. However, the extent of the damage would depend on various factors such as the strength of the suction, the material of the bills, and the duration of exposure within the dredge.

General questions seem to return a 'standard' almost scripted responses, including requests for more detailed information which of course nobody has.

The credibility of many named Cooper sleuths and information they have presented over the years is surprisingly low or suspect and unreliable. That includes just about every name who has posted to Cooper forums since 2004, with one glaring exception - AI describes Eric Ulis as an experienced criminologist who has worked on a number of (named) criminal cases, etc. Ulis' credentials are glowing! Tom Kaye's and Bruce Smith's reliability is 'suspect' or not trustworthy. Georger is rated as 'untrustworthy'. All AI returns seem to be heavily weighted in favor of the standard FBI responses heard over the years and/or 'Internet and Facebook advertising'. I want to stress my searches have been limited and general so far ... Bruce Smith interviews are heavily quoted for some reason. 

My suggestion to use AI may have been a mistake. ?  Just one more example of Georger Unreliability!    Some of the AI responses I am getting read like an advertising campaign drawn directly from internet campaigns and newspaper advertising ?  It is not what I expected at all. I was looking for independent analysis and evaluation vs. some Cooper sleuths personal advertising campaign for his book! Im surprised and dismayed ... its like the cows and horses have been in the onion patch and now the stench is everywhere on the farm ?

AI says that Cooper's bomb was not real period! A psychological ploy, no more, no less. AIP says Cooper's primary method throughout the hijacking was 'psychological' relying on a manipulation of everyone and everything he could manipulate from the ticket counter to when he left the plane.  His primary device was a fake bomb. He may not have bailed where experts think he bailed!

To hear AI tell it: Eric Ulis is the best thing going in the Cooper case today Tom Kaye's work is optional and unproven. And the Ulis West Path may be true! And the Cooper money did not result from the dredging in 1974. ?  (Robert99 may be correct ?)

Edited June 23 by georger