DB Cooper

[Robert99 47]

3 hours ago, Cola said:

That's not the extent of the utter nonsense. 

let these things go

I agree with you that this whole exchange is nonsense.

I have been there and Chaucer refuses to reveal any aeronautical knowledge or experience that he supposedly possesses.

[Chaucer 110]

18 hours ago, c99acer said:

Do you know how many hours it took these people at the SAGE blockhouse to produce the accurate flight path?

Spangler told me that he received the flight path data and map from the SAGE blockhouse either the day after the hijacking or the following day. In speaking with Len Camp, a senior director at NORAD, he said the radar data would have been printed out, and the coordinates and time stamps plotted on the map. It would not have required a great deal of time - especially as the SAGE unit trained in this type of thing all the time. 

[Chaucer 110]

15 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, your last statement above is just more nonsense.

In all probability, the Seattle Air Traffic Control people had access to the very same radar information that the USAF used.

In instances such as this, the various Federal Government agencies would be operating under a Memorandum of Understanding between the agencies.

It would be unnecessary and a waste of resources for each agency to have its own radar facility and personnel.

For all your "aviation knowledge", you sure get a lot of things wrong. 

SAGE was FAR more accurate than civilian radar, and civilian radar did not have any access to the SAGE infrastructure. Civilian radar didn't even use GEOREF in their radar data.

Keep saying inaccurate, off the wall stuff though.  It's fun!

[Chaucer 110]

10 hours ago, Robert99 said:

I agree with you that this whole exchange is nonsense.

I have been there and Chaucer refuses to reveal any aeronautical knowledge or experience that he supposedly possesses.

Never once have I ever claimed I possessed any specialized "aeronautical knowledge". Rather, you're the one nailing your resume on every church door you can find. 

 

[Cola 49]

10 hours ago, Robert99 said:

I agree with you that this whole exchange is nonsense.

I have been there and Chaucer refuses to reveal any aeronautical knowledge or experience that he supposedly possesses.

 

4 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Never once have I ever claimed I possessed any specialized "aeronautical knowledge". Rather, you're the one nailing your resume on every church door you can find. 

 

 

Settling the matter will not move the needle of the case in the tinniest bit.

Widdle your wood in areas of the case that may come to Points which matter.

 

Let's let these things go

 

R.I.P

Sage - Radar

DZ

Flight Path

Jump Time

 

[Chaucer 110]

1 minute ago, Cola said:

 

 

Settling the matter will not move the needle of the case in the tinniest bit.

Widdle your wood in areas of the case that may come to Points which matter.

 

Let's let these things go

 

R.I.P

Sage - Radar

DZ

Flight Path

Jump Time

 

 

 

 

So, if this was a standard bank robbery, you don't think it's important to investigate what route the robber took when he fled the bank in the getaway car or where he ditched the car and fled on foot?

Also, what moves the needle? What gets us closer to identifying Cooper? There's little to know physical evidence. There's little to no DNA. There's virtually no chance anyone "solves" this case without either of those things. Am I wasting my time discussing the flight path and drop zone more than any of the other discussions on here?

[c99acer 7]

49 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Spangler told me that he received the flight path data and map from the SAGE blockhouse either the day after the hijacking or the following day. In speaking with Len Camp, a senior director at NORAD, he said the radar data would have been printed out, and the coordinates and time stamps plotted on the map. It would not have required a great deal of time - especially as the SAGE unit trained in this type of thing all the time. 

Appreciate the information and discussion on flight path. It still seems strange that it took so long to produce the flight path map when everyone with radar was tracking the flight as it happened. Why would the folks back at NWA headquarters be involved in picking the path? Did they have an additional tracking system?

[Chaucer 110]

13 minutes ago, c99acer said:

Appreciate the information and discussion on flight path. It still seems strange that it took so long to produce the flight path map when everyone with radar was tracking the flight as it happened. Why would the folks back at NWA headquarters be involved in picking the path? Did they have an additional tracking system?

NWA was not involved in tracking the aircraft or plotting the flight path. Flight 305 was being tracked on civilian radar AND the USAF's Semi-Automatic Ground Radar (SAGE) which was the most sophisticated radar of that time. Flight 305 was also being followed by two Delta Dart interceptor jets that can be guided by SAGE to their target. 

I would suspect that the request for the radar data was made sometime on the 25th to the USAF, and it was supplied to Major Spangler the next day. 

Of course, the flight path of the aircraft was never really questioned at the time. Everyone - including the crew - knew that it was flying Victor 23. Rather, the urgent concern of the day was Cooper's drop zone which was calculated by both Major Spanger and Paul Soderlind. 

 

[Cola 49]

4 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Also, what moves the needle? What gets us closer to identifying Cooper? There's little to know physical evidence. There's little to no DNA. There's virtually no chance anyone "solves" this case without either of those things. Am I wasting my time discussing the flight path and drop zone more than any of the other discussions on here?

Chaucer, for posterity your take is valued, the Vortex needs members who have your level of commitment to become experts on the various puzzle pieces. This knowledge has contributed to our understanding and the expertise will come in use.

Now, whether dead or alive 50 years on is the statement,

Cooper landed somewhere within Clark County,

All that we need to understand?

Dose zooming in more than that help us. Are we ever going to zoom in close enough on the  Sage,DZ, Flight Path or jump time data to see him hit the ground.

(sure Orchards seems better but that was out 37 years on)

If you agree Clark County is good enough and close enough, then let's let these other things go:

 

Sage - Radar

DZ

Flight Path

Jump Time

 

Edited June 10 by Cola

[Chaucer 110]

9 hours ago, Cola said:

Chaucer, for posterity your take is valued, the Vortex needs members who have your level of commitment to become experts on the various puzzle pieces. This knowledge has contributed to our understanding and the expertise will come in use.

Now, whether dead or alive 50 years on is the statement,

Cooper landed somewhere within Clark County,

All that we need to understand?

Dose zooming in more than that help us. Are we ever going to zoom in close enough on the  Sage,DZ, Flight Path or jump time data to see him hit the ground.

(sure Orchards seems better but that was out 37 years on)

If you agree Clark County is good enough and close enough, then let's let these other things go:

 

Sage - Radar

DZ

Flight Path

Jump Time

 

Then what topics are worthy of discussion and research? His tie? His briefcase? His drink? His parachute choice? The varied and differing sketches? The Tena Bar money find? Does zooming in on any of those things bring us closer to identifying Cooper? Do those things have any more or less value than the flight path and when and where Cooper jumped? How is is even possible to quantify that? 

I appreciate you trying to bury topics you have no interest in. That's fair. You don't have to care. But you're suggesting that researching and discussing them have no value, but does researching and discussing ANYTHING Cooper related have any value at this point?

[Cola 49]

10 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Then what topics are worthy of discussion and research? His tie? His briefcase? His drink? His parachute choice? The varied and differing sketches? The Tena Bar money find? Does zooming in on any of those things bring us closer to identifying Cooper? Do those things have any more or less value than the flight path and when and where Cooper jumped? How is is even possible to quantify that? 

I appreciate you trying to bury topics you have no interest in. That's fair. You don't have to care. But you're suggesting that researching and discussing them have no value, but does researching and discussing ANYTHING Cooper related have any value at this point?

 

Caucher - we are all good, you and I are kindred spirits in this misadventure.

I do enjoy a little banter now and then and if you and Robbert want to peck at each other over these things that's your prerogative. I'll sit back and watch the show.

I apologies for pushing "my belief" that these things should be buried. I try to be selective in what I spend time on which are the other areas you highlighted.

The - Sage, DZ, Flight Path, and jump time are not dead yet, if you are willing to do the unpleasant job of getting out the paddles, shock these issues and cracking a rib cage, then there may be life here. (I'm not that guy)

There is a potential of yielding results, but these areas need an investigative course, they need action, not discussion.

 

A call to action to bring life back into these areas:

If the presumption is true that he tossed out the case then that item would have fallen within V-23.

Where within V-23?

Between the oscillations, which may have been him tossing out the briefcase, and  concluding with the pressure bump when he jumped. 

You, someone or a team that has the will and knowledge should estimate a refined briefcase LZ.

Apply that  LZ to a topo and put it out here for consideration. 

-then-

Do an topo overlay of the property addresses that fall within that briefcase LZ.

Next

Consider doing a Gofundme maybe with possibly Nickky's help to finance a Flyer- mailer describing the briefcase and its anticipated state now.

If you a team or someone else brings that together, I have no issues contributing the first $250 to a Gofundme that puts a line in the water. (that is a standing offer)

Maybe there is not a briefcase to be found but maybe there is something  else that  we can make use of or need.

These areas need action to give them life, not discussion.

However, your discussion and your shared knowledge is not wasted as it may be this sharing which is the   provocation for that person in the future to execute the needed action.

 

 

Edited June 11 by Cola

[Chaucer 110]

34 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

Caucher - we are all good, you and I are kindred spirits in this misadventure.

I do enjoy a little banter now and then and if you and Robbert want to peck at each other over these things that's your prerogative. I'll sit back and watch the show.

I apologies for pushing "my belief" that these things should be buried. I try to be selective in what I spend time on which are the other areas you highlighted.

The - Sage, DZ, Flight Path, and jump time are not dead yet, if you are willing to do the unpleasant job of getting out the paddles, shock these issues and cracking a rib cage, then there may be life here. (I'm not that guy)

There is a potential of yielding results, but these areas need an investigative course, they need action, not discussion.

 

A call to action to bring life back into these areas:

If the presumption is true that he tossed out the case then that item would have fallen within V-23.

Where within V-23?

Between the oscillations, which may have been him tossing out the briefcase, and  concluding with the pressure bump when he jumped. 

You, someone or a team that has the will and knowledge should estimate a refined briefcase LZ.

Apply that  LZ to a topo and put it out here for consideration. 

-then-

Do an topo overlay of the property addresses that fall within that briefcase LZ.

Next

Consider doing a Gofundme maybe with possibly Nickky's help to finance a Flyer- mailer describing the briefcase and its anticipated state now.

If you a team or someone else brings that together, I have no issues contributing the first $250 to a Gofundme that puts a line in the water. (that is a standing offer)

Maybe there is not a briefcase to be found but maybe there is something  else that  we can make use of or need.

These areas need action to give them life, not discussion.

However, your discussion and your shared knowledge is not wasted as it may be this sharing which is the   provocation for that person in the future to execute the needed action.

 

 

This is all well and good, but you avoided the question.

You said you felt that the flight path and drop zone were dead issues that aren't worthy of discussion or research because, to use your phrase, "zooming in" on them won't solve the case. 

But my question was, what topics ARE worthy of discussion and research, in your opinion? What aspects of the case will solve it by "zooming in" on them?

 

[Robert99 47]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:45 PM, FLYJACK said:

Lidar was done..

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/inport/item/49920

 

On 8/5/2023 at 7:34 AM, olemisscub said:

It’s hard to argue this point when it had been repacked TWICE after Hayden got it back. Those riggers would have realized it wasn’t a 26 in there at that time 

edit: looks like Fly beat me to it 

 

On 8/24/2023 at 2:18 PM, FLYJACK said:

I don't think the F-102s were part of the SAGE system which could direct control and fire from jets..

That doesn't mean they weren't tracked by radar..

SAGE tracked everything.

The F-102s didn't intercept 305 until after the Columbia River. The F-106s turned back and the F-102s followed to Reno.

You had SAGE, AF and ATC tracking the planes.

Obviously, we don't have the SAGE primary data, it is military stuff that needs to be deciphered. 

There is nothing mysterious here.

The Reca narrative uses doubt to create a grand conspiracy, you can do that with anything.. If everything is a lie, they can make up anything, there is nothing to check.

They want people to believe everyone involved in the Cooper hijacking is lying and in real time comms...  vs Carl/Reca's account..

It is beyond tin foil hat stuff. This Reca nonsense is just making a mockery of the Cooper case.

 

Here, Reca was with Joan in August 1970.. in Michigan, in Lexington where Joan's brother lived using "Peca". They just made up the Reca timeline. They made it all up.

 

 

On 8/28/2023 at 12:12 PM, georger said:

You never stop!  The basics of the flight path are known. Its the time of separation and the Drop zone that are still being debated. But, nowhere in any official record is there anything about Tena Bar being the drop zone! That is a new novel idea brought forth by Ulis, subscribed by you since Ulis started appearing on TV   ....  based on absolutely NOTHING but a script for a television program ?

Moreover R99, your original posts going back 14 years did not even claim that Tena Bar was thee Drop Zone!  I wonder if Walker would have even allowed you on his website if your original claim was 'Cooper's DZ was Tena Bar' ! I think Walker might have drawn the line at that. That would have been a claim deserving instant ridicule.  That claim is just one example of how you and Ulis have changed the whole dynamic of the Cooper discussion,  but your original posts did not reflect that 'aberration'.  

Your original posts were as much concerned with you explaining the hydrodynamics and geography of Tena Bar and the surrounding water system, vs your western flight path and DZ alone. Dont you recall your own posts? SafecrackingPLF got on board with your posts and posted maps of the Columbian Basin tributary system  (see attached).  Safecracking followed with his "9 Reasons" and his Logic system with Youtube videos! Agent Carr got on board with this and applauded Safecracking's work. You and your west path faded into the background!

Then when Ulis joined the discussion your west path doctrine had a reincarnation and morphed into:  the new Dtropzone is at Tena Bar. You explained that that is why money was found at Tena Bar -  because "water flows down hill" !  Yada yada yada yada.

Maybe you will change your mind tomorrow with some new novelty ?

 

On 8/28/2023 at 10:52 PM, georger said:

When you figure it out be sure and let me and the world know.

Why dont you go back to what you were doing in 2008 ie. commenting on streams, hydrology, etc which might have an influence on Tena Bar .  You were better at that than on your redacted west path baloney. 

And, you might actually read Carr's recent comments posted by OleMiss rather than preaching to others to "read" it?  What you are posting makes no sense in the here and now!

You lost your way about 2008. Its your choice!  Frankly R99 I am not interested in anything further from you.   

 

Georger & FlyJack (?),

The above posts are just more of your nonsense.  I'll try to answer some of them here but it is obvious that you have not even read the posts you claim you are responding to.

First, the only aircraft to trail the airliner to Reno was a C-130 which had joined up with the airliner somewhere in Oregon or Northern California.  The C-130 was mentioned in the handoff from the Seattle Center to the Oakland Center and then elsewhere.  You would know this if you had bothered to read the Oakland Center radio transcripts which I have repeatedly encouraged everyone to do.

Georger claims that I made a lot of posts in 2008.  If Georger had bothered to read my first posts he would know that all of them were after March 2009 which is the date I joined this Cooper forum at the suggestion of Sluggo.

If I remember correctly, my very first post on this forum pointed out that there were big time problems with the so-called FBI flight path.  Over a period of time, I made additional posts that the money bag would have to land in a very restricted area (less than one-half square mile) in order for the money to end up by natural means at the Tena Bar location where it was found.

There is now additional information to support the Western Flight Path and that the so-called FBI flight path always had problems.  I will post on that in a few days.

[Cola 49]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

 at the suggestion of Sluggo.

I'm now applying the thought hierarchy to what Robert is telling me - 

Thinking, Believing, Knowing, Proving - Acceptance - Denial

 

Georger - I'm thinking of ordering “Occlusal Paradox" shirts you want one? 

Edited June 14 by Cola

[Robert99 47]

7 minutes ago, Cola said:

I'm now applying the thought hierarchy to what this person is telling me - 

Thinking, Believing, Knowing, Proving - Acceptance - Denial

 

Georger I'm thinking of ordering “Occlusal Paradox" shirts you want one? 

Cola, could you please write in English.  What are you saying above and what are you talking about?

I don't know what you mean in your reference to Sluggo.  But he is the one who told me how to find the Cooper forum on DropZone.  Sluggo and I had other interactions, some of which are included in his site which is now available for your review on Shutter's site unless Chaucer has deleted it.

If you are interested in what I have posted here over the last 15 years all you have to do is look them up.  

[Cola 49]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Cola, could you please write in English. 

Its just a but its humor for anyone on the board that has followed the prior reference.

 

[georger 231]

6 hours ago, Cola said:

I'm now applying the thought hierarchy to what Robert is telling me - 

Thinking, Believing, Knowing, Proving - Acceptance - Denial

 

Georger - I'm thinking of ordering “Occlusal Paradox" shirts you want one? 

Have one but thanks.

Edited June 15 by georger

[Cola 49]

18 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Cola, could you please write in English.  What are you saying above and what are you talking about?

I don't know what you mean in your reference to Sluggo.  But he is the one who told me how to find the Cooper forum on DropZone.  Sluggo and I had other interactions, some of which are included in his site which is now available for your review on Shutter's site unless Chaucer has deleted it.

If you are interested in what I have posted here over the last 15 years all you have to do is look them up.  

Robert-

Congratulations on hitting 15 years. I hope to retire within the next 5, but all of my proxies suggest otherwise.

I could never read Tom Sawyer past a certain point, but I have received the gist of it over my life.

All your post, your thoughts, and your interactions over those 15 years have entered the zeitgeist of the Vortex and I believe the gist of what you have put down in that time I will receive in the aggregate. 

You have helped the Vortex in ways I am aware and unaware of and I am both thankful for and appreciative of your contribution.

Now, wouldn't it be a good a time to finally bury that ax Robert and not have your legacy in the Vortex be of us remembering you - for that ax.

Best,

COLA

[georger 231]

3 hours ago, Cola said:

Robert-

 

Congratulations on hitting 15 years. I hope to retire within the next 5, but all of my proxies suggest otherwise.

 

I could never read Tom Sawyer past a certain point, but I have received the gist of it over my life.

 

All your post, your thoughts, and your interactions over those 15 years have entered the zeitgeist of the Vortex and I believe the gist of what you have put down in that time I will receive in the aggregate. 

 

You have helped the Vortex in ways I am aware and unaware of and I am both thankful for and appreciative of your contribution.

 

Now, wouldn't it be a good a time to finally bury that ax Robert and not have your legacy in the Vortex be of us remembering you - for that ax.

 

Best,

 

COLA

 

well said.  For some the Vortex becomes personal. Too personal but that's another story. If the FBI had done a better job with hard evidence and was willing to share openly, this case might not exist. Agents I have talked to even agree but nothing can be done about that today - it appears. Likewise agents themselves still have their own lists of unanswered questions. The system has not been perfect for anyone. We all share a common question: who was DB Cooper and that question will continue ... regardless of the personalities involved.    

[Robert99 47]

On 6/15/2024 at 8:17 AM, Cola said:

Robert-

 

Congratulations on hitting 15 years. I hope to retire within the next 5, but all of my proxies suggest otherwise.

 

I could never read Tom Sawyer past a certain point, but I have received the gist of it over my life.

 

All your post, your thoughts, and your interactions over those 15 years have entered the zeitgeist of the Vortex and I believe the gist of what you have put down in that time I will receive in the aggregate. 

 

You have helped the Vortex in ways I am aware and unaware of and I am both thankful for and appreciative of your contribution.

 

Now, wouldn't it be a good a time to finally bury that ax Robert and not have your legacy in the Vortex be of us remembering you - for that ax.

 

Best,

 

COLA

 

Cola and Georger,

Flattery will get you nowhere.  As far as I am concerned there is no ax to be buried.  Let's just stick to facts.

Hopefully, within the next week or so, I will have time to post on some new information related to the flight path.  And a post by FlyJack played a part in getting me to check into it.

[Cola 49]

8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Cola and Georger,

Flattery will get you nowhere.  As far as I am concerned there is no ax to be buried.  Let's just stick to facts.

Hopefully, within the next week or so, I will have time to post on some new information related to the flight path.  And a post by FlyJack played a part in getting me to check into it.

Robert -

Our minds construct our own versions of reality. Reality is unique and tailored by the  perceptions within each of us.

This is a basic concept - take an Adult and a Child and place them in the same circumstance and their reality and perceptions will be worlds apart.

Place a Republican and a Democrat in the same circumstance and their versions of reality and the perception used to construct their realities will differ. 

There is no universal reality. No universal perception. No reality or perception ever held by a person; is, was, or will be  identical to any others.

If you want to assign your own semantics to my post that support your perception of reality, I cannot stop you.

All I can do to counter your Denial is to express my reality and share my perception, my truth and my Known -which is that my post - was every bit genuine.

I do not know what more I can say to you to get you to Accept this, so I'll not argue the point with you further.

I'm sorry you did not see my post for what it was. I'm sorry you did not feel the genuine warmth that I tried to show you.

All the best to you.

COLA

 

Thinking, Believing, Knowing, Proving - Acceptance - Denial

 

Edited June 17 by Cola

[Robert99 47]

12 hours ago, Cola said:

Robert -

Our minds construct our own versions of reality. Reality is unique and tailored by the  perceptions within each of us.

This is a basic concept - take an Adult and a Child and place them in the same circumstance and their reality and perceptions will be worlds apart.

Place a Republican and a Democrat in the same circumstance and their versions of reality and the perception used to construct their realities will differ. 

There is no universal reality. No universal perception. No reality or perception ever held by a person; is, was, or will be  identical to any others.

If you want to assign your own semantics to my post that support your perception of reality, I cannot stop you.

All I can do to counter your Denial is to express my reality and share my perception, my truth and my Known -which is that my post - was every bit genuine.

I do not know what more I can say to you to get you to Accept this, so I'll not argue the point with you further.

I'm sorry you did not see my post for what it was. I'm sorry you did not feel the genuine warmth that I tried to show you.

All the best to you.

COLA

 

Thinking, Believing, Knowing, Proving - Acceptance - Denial

 

Cola, I deal with facts and "truth" is a universal reality.  What institution are you associated with?

[Cola 49]

6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Cola, I deal with facts and "truth" is a universal reality.  What institution are you associated with?

Robert -

Truth is not universal or absolute. This is why truth has been conveyed in moral law as  "thou shall not bear false witness" and in the written law as Perjury.

If truth were universal and absolute then there would be no need for the moral and written law to remind us to practice it.

I have more to say on reality and facts, but no time to respond at the moment.

Can you clarify your question -  "What institution are you associated with?"

 

Edited June 17 by Cola

[georger 231]

20 hours ago, Cola said:

Robert -

Truth is not universal or absolute. This is why truth has been conveyed in moral law as  "thou shall not bear false witness" and in the written law as Perjury.

If truth were universal and absolute then there would be no need for the moral and written law to remind us to practice it.

I have more to say on reality and facts, but no time to respond at the moment.

Can you clarify your question -  "What institution are you associated with?"

 

Robert99 may be another Jo Weber. So far, his claims have shifted almost monthly, always claiming "New evidence" . But all of his claims have turned out to be "incomplete" lacking concrete proof of a west path over Tina Bar .. Years have gone by since this started - there is literally nothing anyone can do with what R99 has presented, and most people have moved on falling back on what the FBI presented.

If and when R99 presents concrete evidence of a west path over Tina Bar  .......... the world is waiting. Good luck to R99!

R99 will say my post is evidence of my not understanding basic truths of the flight path. That's fine. All I or anyone can do is continue to wait for R99 to present his "new evidence" .... whenever that may be. The world moves on, in any event. 

Edited June 18 by georger

[georger 231]

6 hours ago, georger said:

Robert99 may be another Jo Weber. So far, his claims have shifted almost monthly, always claiming "New evidence" . But all of his claims have turned out to be "incomplete" lacking concrete proof of a west path over Tina Bar .. Years have gone by since this started - there is literally nothing anyone can do with what R99 has presented, and most people have moved on falling back on what the FBI presented.

If and when R99 presents concrete evidence of a west path over Tina Bar  .......... the world is waiting. Good luck to R99!

R99 will say my post is evidence of my not understanding basic truths of the flight path. That's fine. All I or anyone can do is continue to wait for R99 to present his "new evidence" .... whenever that may be. The world moves on, in any event. 

Still waiting for R99 to present his "new evidence" (his words) of a flight path over Tina Bar.

I am beginning to suspect there is no new evidence and  there never was. Farflung and Hominid waited years and got nothing. It is now 2024. Robert, where is this new evidence you have been promising for years?  

No 'special credentials' are required to understand this.

Edited June 19 by georger