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(edited)

Saw Eric Ulis' recent post about 'knowing where the briefcase' might be and I had to laugh. He wants to do a search with a media guy. 

Jet was going three miles a minute. Even if you could narrow down the jump time (and that's not necessarily when the briefcase and dummy chute went out the back) to a mere two minutes, that's still a search area of six miles by one half mile in either direction. That's SIX square miles. And it's much more likely that Cooper disposed of these items sometime between when he got the door to drop, and when he finally jumped. Let's be generous and narrow that down to a five minute window. That leaves you a search area of FIFTEEN SQUARE MILES. Get real. 

Good luck with that. It's nothing more by Eric than a cheap media stunt. I doubt he even has the gear for a proper search. 

People want to do a REAL search, look me up. I have the proper gear galore, the radios, the metal detector(s), the base camp stuff. And prepare to be out there for a couple of weeks with at least a dozen people or more. 

See...that's a search. Not a stunt for bragging rights at a convention. Some of you over at the Cooper Forum I like and respect. A few of you are just gullible beyond belief. But then I always say people get the events they deserve. And for some of you, your gullibility demands it. B) Nobody over there questions the idea that one of your biggest speakers claims he's been kidnapped by aliens? Yeah, you should listen to him alright. That's what you call 'establishing credibility for a serious event,' right? Or, maybe not. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Georger, you still don't understand the packet/bundle issue. 

It does not rely on Himm's statement, it does not even rely on the packets being in paper straps. Paper vs rubber bands is irrelevant. I have told you that before.

You are just creating a strawman..  because you have no argument.

You still ignore Carr's error, he thought that each of the 3 packets was made to a random count... they weren't, he was wrong. It was the bundles of packets. Get it, packets = 100 bills, bundles = a number of packets. Carr confused packets vs bundles.

This is so easy to understand even a University Professor can get it.

 

The conclusion is that the money most likely arrived on TBAR as one single rubber banded bundle of a number of packets of 100 bills.

 

I have several theories for how a single bundle got into the River upstream of TBAR during Spring.

But, once in the River in Spring the bundle of packets would fan out obtain the diatoms as it sunk.. the suspended bundle gets pushed along the bottom to the spot it was found.. at the time in Spring the water was well above the find spot. The bundle did not wash up onto the water surface or onto the shore, it was deposited to a spot that was effectively the River bottom at the time and became buried there. The normal River level was below the TBAR spot and as the rubber bands holding the bundle of packets together deteriorated the packets separated appearing to be independent.

 

It has been assumed and treated as fact that the money arrived on TBAR as 3 separate packets,,, that is not a fact. The money went to Cooper as a single rubber banded bundle of a random number of packets of 100 bills. The evidence indicates that it is far more likely that the money arrived as one single rubber banded bundle of packets..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Georger,, how do you lie continuously like that..

Are you completely incapable of forming your own argument?

Nothing you ever say is accurate. You twist, contort, misrepresent and even manufacture evidence to win an argument..  it is pathetic.

You never add anything productive to the case, I only reference you when I have to correct your BS.

 

I never said that paper bands deteriorate in 8 years.

It would be about 3 months.

Paper bands are not made from the same material as currency..

 

and the paper bands has nothing to do with fact that the money was in packets of 100 bills..

 

Carr was wrong, you have been wrong for a decade,, suck it up, take the L and stop lying.

The term packet and bundle aren't even the issue,, the issue is that there are two different things, a single group of 100 bills and a group of groups of 100 bills..

Call them lemons and limes if you want,, the point is they are different and you guys mixed them up.. 

The group of 100 bills (packet) was not in random counts and they were rubber banded into bundles.

In Georger's argument a bundle is a group of 100 bills and is also a group of several bundles of 100 bills..  you need to distinguish between these different things to avoid confusion and the bankers do that,, they use the term packet for a group of 100 bills.

Funny, Georger can't seem to find a banker who uses the term packet.. even though it is right in multiple Cooper FBI docs..

bankbandpackets.jpeg.3f576d762ec32f310d8d88c5e157517a.jpeg

cooperbillsernumdel1a.jpg.58c7c637977f9b86dcc75165112af8bd.jpg

 

cooppacket2.jpeg.eab00def7c21d2e9e69bd9664cacceee.jpeg

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

I think it will help if I explain a few things about both SeaFirst Bank, and how the money was handled. How it was originally stored, and why it was stored. This may give some insight into things. 

  • SeaFirst was a people-friendly bank in the Seattle-Puget Sound area, and branches were numerous. They were everywhere here back in the day. Their security was frankly a bit lax, and that's because they didn't want to scare customers away. They were easily the most-frequently robbed bank (during certain years) in Seattle. I mean...they just handed out the available cash to anyone with a threatening note without a question, and many of these one-off SeaFirst robbers got away with it. 
     
  • But...they also decided that they needed a separate, easily-available fund just in case one of their bank managers or executives were kidnapped or the like. The fund they established was not for hijackers. It just went to Cooper anyway. 
     
  • Flyjack is RIGHT when he differentiates between 'packets' and 'bundles'. The term packet is an official bank name. The term bundles is simply how the bills were delivered to Cooper. 
     
  • For a long time, one Cooper Myth was that the bills were run through a Recordak machine AT THE TIME of the hijacking. What we know now is that this was done PRIOR to the hijacking, so that SeaFirst would have a record of all the bills in that special fund, in case they had to pay it out on a ransom. This is why there were more numbers on the microfilm than the actual number of bills that were given to Cooper. I think the fund was $250,000, but Cooper only asked for $200,000, so it took some time for SeaFirst to eliminate the non-given bills from the ones that were actually delivered to Cooper. When they got that straightened out...then the printed list of ransom bills was created.
     
  • This is how the bills were packed up for Cooper:  Someone, probably more than one person, opened the vault in Seattle where the bills were stored. They were in packets of 100 bills each. These packets were basically 'grabbed' off the vault shelves and rubber-banded together in BUNDLES, and then placed into a bank bag with leather handles. (Reference to description of the bank bag was given by co-pilot Bill Rataczak, who described the bag he saw coming on board the jet.)
     
  • What SeaFirst, or the FBI, or SOMEONE involved decided....was that it would be better to grab these packets and just stick them together in random amounts before putting rubber bands on them. In other words...maybe just a single packet with a rubber band, maybe two...probably no more than three together. But the total of 100-20-dollar bill packets given out to Cooper was exactly 100 of these packets, although the bundles that ended up in the bank bag probably totaled 40-60 bundles. 
     
  • The reason for this was to convince Cooper that the bills were randomly and hastily put together, and that they had NOT been recorded, although in reality they already had been recorded by SeaFirst long ago. The paper bands around each packet may have been removed as the money was being assembled (using rubber bands) into bundles. 
     
  • Another reason for 'bundling' the 100 packets was probably because the bank, as well as Northwest Airlines, figured that Cooper might get caught, and just giving him the money WITHOUT it being rubber-banded...well...the money could get lost easily. If Cooper jumps and there are just paper bands around these bills, they could easily break apart and scatter all over the sky....and no one would ever get their money back. So the rubber-banding process was not only to fool Cooper, but to help preserve the money in case he was caught, or the money was eventually found. It was a practical matter, as well as being a 'Let's Fool Cooper' move. 
     
  • Of course, when the money didn't come back, and Cooper was not initially found...then the bank and the FBI worked together to issue the list of bills, (80% of the fund SeaFirst held in that vault) that was sent out to all Northwest banks, the casinos in Reno and Vegas, and all the Federal banks. There were no casinos in either Washington state or Oregon back in 1971.
     
  • The problem came when they asked all these tellers to start comparing all their incoming twenties to the 32-34 page whatever list of ransom numbers. And for at least three months, these tellers (at least a great number of them) were very conscientious about doing just that. But it soon turned into one big-ass headache that no one wanted to do for long. 
     
  • Three months after the bill list was issued...most banks gave up the chase. After six months, all of them did. The casinos probably didn't bother with the search request. The three-to-six month reference comes from Larry Carr himself, via his radio interview with Steven Rinehart. It's listed at Wikipedia/DB Cooper. 
     
  • It's my personal opinion that the Tina Bar money, if it went into the water shortly after the hijacking, could not have lasted in water, or washed up on some sand bar for nine full years. I'm not going to elaborate or theorize on that further. I base this on some of Tom Kaye's tests. He has stated he doesn't think the money would have lasted in the condition it was found in for nine years, and I agree with this concept. 
Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Update on the June Cooper Party near Greenwater, WA

  • There are currently 62 people to date who have shown a strong interest in attending. This does not mean they will actually show up, of course. And we are not banking on the idea that everyone on the list WILL show up. 
     
  • It is hard for us to estimate how many would actually show out of the people who contact us and say they are interested. We have no way to estimate this, but Greg and I decided that maybe 1/3 to no more than 1/2 of these people would actually drive out there and show up. So we are going on that fraction, but it's strictly a guess. 
     
  • I have done some talking-up about this event, and even promoted the idea that a Cooper Party near Greenwater would bring in more folks than the event scheduled for November in Vancouver by Eric Ulis. But the truth is we can't say that for sure any more than Eric could say he's going to pack the Kiggins Theater to the very last seat and make it Standing Room Only. The truth is neither of knows for sure what will happen, or how many will show to either event. 
     
  • Greg and I are not in favor of the current program planned at the Kiggins, but we also (grudgingly) agree that ANY Cooper event is good for keeping Cooper in the public eye. We just wish EU was a little less obvious in his self-marketing. 
     
  • Unlike Eric, we are not working on a budget created by entrance fees or donations/contributions from local businesses. We have to pay for the June party ourselves. And because of that, we also have to judge whether it is worth it to finalize the event and blow the budget, even without knowing for sure how many people on our 'confirmed' list will actually pack up and come to Greenwater. This is the trickiest part.
     
  • For example, let's say 150 people eventually sign to go, but only 40 actually pack it up, drive up, and SHOW up. Our money would be wasted completely. It wouldn't be worth it. At some point, we have to 'pull the trigger' at Amazon and Costco to the tune of at least a couple of thousand bucks. This is one of the hardest decisions I've ever made. When do you say, "Okay, we have enough people. Let's DO this." And start spending a majority of a budget that is into a few thousand bucks?
     
  • What we have decided is THIS:  We will wait until April 30, 2021 and see how many additional people show an interest by contacting us and saying they want to attend. If we don't reach a minimum of at least TWICE the number of people on our target number...we will have to cancel the event. Of course, everyone who contacts us might just show up, but the chances of that are very low, and we understand this. 
     
  • Greg has suggested a second option as well. He has proposed that maybe we should hold this event later in the summer. He got this idea yesterday after watching the Joe Biden address to the nation. Greg says that since President Biden is saying that public stuff could be opened more completely by July 4...that we should schedule the event over a weekend in July instead. The weather would be better, and our chances of filling all the slots would improve. Plus there would be less Covid-related stuff to deal with. 
     
  • For the moment, we will go into a 'holding pattern' and see how many people show interest by the end of April. If there is not much improvement, we could try extending the event date to July. And then...if by early June there is still not enough interest...THEN we could cancel. I may make some changes to the website and some articles fairly soon. For the moment, though I have removed the video at YouTube. We will see how it goes over the next six weeks. 
Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Georger, you are a serial liar, nothing you claim has any credibility... you should go back to your Unabomber theory.

Did you explain Carr's error to Tom...  of course you didn't. That's the whole point.

You have no idea what the issue really is.. Carr was wrong, that is a fact, you can't even admit that fact. 

Why should anyone take anything you claim seriously.

You don't even have an argument,, what is it?

Carr was right? Cooper didn't get the money in 100's which were rubber banded into bundles? The TBAR money only could have landed as three separate "groups of bills"? 

None of those things are true..

Do you dispute my conclusion that the TBAR money most likely landed as one single bundle?

 

 

Here is your lying in action, your modus operandi.. "distort, fabricate and misdirection (strawman)"

First you selectively misstate Tina's 302... the 302 statement "small packages with bank-type bands around each package." You claimed "she said bands",, that is the distortion.

then you claim she meant rubber bands. She was contacted and asked..   that is the fabrication.

then you selectively edit the 302 passage to fit your argument.  that is the misdirection.

 

You pull this crap all the time. It might fool the Cooper newbies but people who have been around a while know what you are, they avoid you to avoid the hassle. I use you as a foil...

 

Bank-type bands are not rubber bands.. 

of course your next claim will be that the FBI agents just made it up in the 302's and they made up packets too.... the FBI made it all up but Carr didn't get it wrong when he claimed that the 3 TBAR packets were all different bill counts. Of course he was wrong. Why, he conflated packets and bundles. When he learned that the bundles were made random and rubber banded, he assumed that was the packets. He was wrong and you have been wrong for a decade.

 

Georger's comment.

georgertinalie1.jpg.3606b43b17845f0fa2ba3cbc5bc61b0c.jpg

 

Tina's 302..

cooptinbankbakbands.jpeg.2b157b2c298bd2dcf8a260c782174fb1.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Look...I know this isn't exactly news...but Georger hasn't posted here in years. No one knows what the heck you are referring to half the time. Georger won't be standing on the stage either this summer at the Cooper Party, or at the convention in Vancouver. 

So who cares? Even Georger's supporters and friends at the Cooper Forum don't listen to him half the time. 

They *sometimes* tell lies about me as well...and still...the supportive emails come to me occasionally from some of Shutter's own members, who figured out that no one...even ME...can be wrong ALL of the time regarding Cooper issues. And some from the public, people who lurk both this forum and Shutter's...also figured out a few things along the way. 

Like when you go overboard on someone, they realize you have an agenda going that doesn't always include the truth. 

Look at the people you are dealing with over there, and the people who lead them. You want to talk about bizarre?

Let me show you BIZARRE. 

  • It's a site that unapologetically supported the ripping off of Sheridan Peterson's 800-page anti-war book, The Idiot's Frightful Laughter, and since Sheridan is now deceased...ripped off his family for the royalties as well. This was done simply to obtain bragging copies of the book for (you guessed it) a Cooper convention supported by that website. Anybody who doubts this is actually what happened, just contact me privately and I will be happy to show you more than 50 screenshots with the truth. The book now sits at Amazon at a ridiculous twenty-five bucks a copy in paperback. What a cruel waste to a life's work. The same people who supported this also put up roadblocks when we tried to publish his book for free with worldwide distribution at traditional trade rates...with all the royalties going to either Sheridan directly, or to a family member. The book itself has a registered copyright with the Library of Congress. 
     
  • Their Fearless Leader, the same guy who wants to do another Cooper convention for 2021, is allegedly running for Congress in his home state of Arizona. Problem is, some people might have objections. And they have. When? The last time he ran for any kind of public position, of course. 
     
  • To make things worse, our email box at Adventure Books of Seattle received a series of emails about Fearless Leader's behavior at his 2019 Cooper convention. The sender, a married woman separated from her husband, claimed that Fearless hit on her at the convention, and continued chasing her online for several months afterward, even sending her pictures of himself and invites to meet. Fearless claimed this all came from his ex-wife, who lives (lived) in Scottsdale, AZ. But when we traced the emails, we discovered they were coming from a server in Portland, OR...just across the Columbia River from the convention. It only stopped when the lady *allegedly* told Fearless that she had gotten back together with her husband and they had gone into counseling. I could have done without all the drama, but her emails had the ring of sincerity to them. Although we cannot absolutely prove this woman's allegations, it is disturbing anyway. We were forced to keep the emails just to protect ourselves legally. 
     
  • This same Fearless Leader has pushed unabashed lies about Sheridan, using those lies to claim Sheridan was actually D.B. Cooper. And trust me on something. Sheridan isn't Cooper. 
     
  • Their most well-known speaker at this upcoming Cooper event in Vancouver, Bruce Smith... recently posted an article claiming he was kidnapped by aliens
     
  • Georger, the guy you keep referencing without any direct quotes as to what is being said...was banned from Dropzone years ago for personal attacks on other DZ users.

I could go on. There is much more. But why bother? You get the basic picture here.

And you actually CARE what these people say? They are a closed group who spend much time circling the wagons, patting each other on the back, and assuring each other than none of them can do any wrong, even when they DO. 

They are a bunch of phonies, and little more. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Georger dodges and weaves, spews misinformation...  TAKE THE L... Sourpuss..

 

You are making false claims.. it is your perception that is shifting not my argument or the evidence.

I have been saying the same thing the entire time.. and I have always said this does not rely on paper bands vs straps... that is not even relevant but the evidence supports paper bands for packets and rubber bands for bundles. It doesn't even rely on packets vs bundles,, that just explains the error. You can call them lemons and limes if you prefer the conclusion is the same but they are different and need to be defined as such.

 

The conclusion is that the TBAR money most likely arrived as one single bundle... Georger has NOT challenged that conclusion. It does NOT rely on paper/rubber bands or packets/bundles.

Georger, as far as I can see, is incapable of processing the issue. He is emotionally invested in being right. I don't recall Georger ever admitting he was wrong.

 

Carr stated...

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it. I have been searching for the evidence report from the lab but have not found it yet, lots of files to go through. When I get it you'll be the second to know."

This is FALSE. Carr was wrong. 

Georger refuses to acknowledge Carr's obvious error. 

Georger claims the multiple references of packets (in 100's) in the FBI docs are wrong.

Georger claims Himm's money statement is wrong.

Georger doesn't seem to accept Pringles statement about the money from a single bundle found on TBAR.

Georger claimed Tina's "bank-type bands" actually means rubber bands. She was asked he claimed.. (LIAR)

Georger rejects logic. If the bank guy randomized the packets/limes right before going to Cooper (as Carr and Georger claimed) how did the TBAR money get back into the same order in 100's...   IT CAN'T.

 

Sounds like Eric's Western Flight Path Placard argument...  reject all the evidence and everyone is wrong except Carr who actually made a 100% false claim. Eric claimed as fact that the Placard was from inside NORJAK and the FBI confirmed it, it wasn't and they didn't.

 

What is Georger's argument? I am not sure but he seems to be rejecting all the evidence but putting up no conclusion or argument.

Is Georger claiming the packets/lemons were random counts?  

Is Georger claiming the TBAR money could not have been in paper bands?  

Is Georger claiming the TBAR money could not have arrived as one bundle/lime?  

 

I pointed this out long ago and got trashed by ignorant people.

I asked you guys over there to explain it... if the money was given to Cooper in packets/lemons of 100 bills then how did it get into random counts of packets/lemons on TBAR.  NOBODY could explain it and several people attacked me for asking that question. 

The answer was simple. The TBAR packets/lemons were not in random counts, Carr was wrong. Carr had conflated the packets/lemons with bundles/limes... 

It was NOT the packets/lemons that were made random as Carr believed, It was the bundles/limes that were made random.. 

The TBAR money was described as found with rubber band frags attached, there is no evidence to indicate if those band frags were from each packet/lemon or from the entire bundle/lime.

 

According to Georger, there is no difference between a group/packet/lemon of 100 bills bank banded or rubber banded.. and a bundle/lime of packets/lemons...

 

The evidence is that the money went to Cooper in packets/lemons of 100 bills each. Those packets/lemons were rubber banded into bundles/limes of a random count.

 

This example, 1 rubber banded bundle of 5 banded packets of 100 bills each. Cooper received packets of 100 bills each rubber banded into bundles of random packet counts.

1570083776_500000-prop-movie-money-bundles-in-duffel-bag-4copy.thumb.jpg.242a10aabb4fdd6a492714df5cdc20e2.jpg

 

Why is this important......

Georger has really become irrelevant in the Cooper case.. his case knowledge is stale and stuck in 2011.

His arguments display poor analysis. Cooper newbies confuse his arrogance with competence. 

I am using Georger as a foil to advance my argument and the Cooper case.

 

The conventional thinking has been that the TBAR money arrived as 3 separate "packets" which constrains how they could have arrived on TBAR.. In fact, that is an assumption, not a fact. 

The TBAR analysis has been constrained by an assumption which I argue is very unlikely.

It is more likely that the money arrived as one single rubber banded bundle of a number of packets of 100 bills each and theories and analysis should be pursued with that in mind.

Georger may not realize it but his ego is restricting the Cooper investigation within a false paradigm. That explains why Georger and a few others have not advanced this case in a decade. Assumptions and errors elevated to fact and used to reject evidence is just poor analysis. Eric Ulis.. Robert99.. Georger..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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The last paragraph goes a long way in explaining my issues with what Eric continues to post over and over. It's nothing personal, it has nothing to do with capitalism, it has nothing to do with CooperCon. It has everything to do with impeding progress in the investigation.

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On 8/24/2020 at 6:41 AM, FLYJACK said:

article in FBI files..

The pop cans and most of the money were found six to eight inches below the surface, but fragments of the money reportedly were as far down as three feet.

Palmer could not explain how the money might have been buried that deep. He said there was "no conclusive evidence" that money was in fact found three feet down, and surmised that it may have been deposited there in digging actions.

 

It indicates Palmer did not believe the money fragments were three feet deep.

 

moneydeeppalmer.jpeg

Palmer,,

No evidence that the money was three feet down, it may have been deposited there in digging actions.

 

The evidence suggests that the money most likely arrived as one single rubber banded bundle of packets of 100 bills each... eliminating theories based on the assumption that the money only arrived as 3 separate packets is poor logic.

 

From there, I have several theories and none point to any particular suspect whatsoever.

Everyone is open to figure out their own theories.

 

but, theories must fit the evidence.

Eric's claim that the money spot was only underwater June 72 and 74 during a high flood is completely false. He just made it up. In June '72 the money spot was about 10-15 feet underwater. The idea that Cooper buries the money next to a River in a remote area when there are far safer areas to bury money then rushes back during a flood to dig it up from far underwater but loses some packets is ridiculous, even for conjecture.

Tom's diatom analysis indicates the money was initially exposed to the River in Spring. 

The money had to be outside the River until a Spring entry into the River.

The money was in the same order and form as it was given to Cooper.

The money sinks. I would like to know what a bundle actually does on the bottom, some debris remains suspended just off the bottom after sinking.

Spring is the seasonal high water flow for the Columbia R.

The "FBI" flightpath should be considered accurate within a small error.

The 8:11 to 8:15 jump time should be considered accurate.

 

Two unproven variables..

The Heisson store break in. 

The railroad tracks..

 

 

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Flyjack,

You mentioned that you had some theories as to how the money got in the river and arrived on Tena Bar. I have some thoughts on that too, but I'd like to get yours.

Also, has their been any analysis done on a drop zone if Cooper jumped near the Columbia? 

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9 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Flyjack,

You mentioned that you had some theories as to how the money got in the river and arrived on Tena Bar. I have some thoughts on that too, but I'd like to get yours.

Also, has their been any analysis done on a drop zone if Cooper jumped near the Columbia? 

I'm not Flyjack, but in the interest of having different theories available, I will give you mine. 

There are two basic reasons why I came up with this theory and you deserve to hear them.

First, I believe Tom Kaye when he says it is extremely unlikely (as a result of his team's tests) that the Tina Bar money could have survived for nine years in the condition it was found.

Not that this is relevant, but I have gone into the high country in WA in early spring and been the first person since the previous fall to use a wilderness campsite. One you can drive to, but not in winter. People bury trash. You find it all the time. Paper, cardboard, even clothing, just rots to hell in a handbasket in a few short months out there in the cold, wet ground of WA state. If the money had actually gone into the river in 1971, it would have turned to mush long before 1980, whether it stayed wet in the river, or somehow on the ground and then back INTO the river. No way would it have survived for almost ten years. That's a personal opinion. Tom Kaye won't go so far as to say the money was planted at Tina Bar (I don't think it was either) but he HAS said he thought 'human hands were involved' somehow. 

My personal belief is that the money was tossed into the Columbia River by Cooper himself. And that this was done sometime AFTER November 24, 1976...when it was all over the newspapers and television that the FBI had managed to get a John Doe warrant against Cooper...on the very last day the Statute of Limitations was due to expire. Although the law was changed later, there was a five-year Statute of Limitations on Cooper in 1971. And as November 1976 drew closer, this fact was harped on quite a bit on the TV news and in the papers. Some people even wondered whether Cooper would come forward after the Statute expired. 

Imagine for a moment you are Cooper, and you know that day is closing in. Five long years and every time someone knocks at your door, you are wondering whether it is some guys in suits with FBI ID. It had to be stressful. Then imagine on the very day you think you will be free and clear (more or less) the FBI pulls a dirty trick by going in front of a friendly Federal judge in Portland who agrees to bypass the Constitution for the FBI. (The judge restricted the warrant to just Cooper though. He wouldn't agree to include any possible unnamed accomplices.)

Cooper must have been furious. And then he probably got depressed. And then (I think) he got desperate. How do you throw the FBI off your trail? Do you dump some of the money in the woods? NO. If it is found, the FBI would search the area, and finding nothing else, no body, no briefcase, no other money...and the money on the ground...they would know Cooper was not only still alive...but probably made it to the ground safely and got away with most of the money. They would redouble their efforts to find him. He would be worse off than before. Into a lake and it gets found? Wouldn't work either. They drag the lake, they send divers. Nothing there. Same result. 

But what about just tossing some of the cash into a big river? There would be no way for anyone to tell anything about it except that the money was there. It could have washed down from anywhere. And if Cooper was trying to convince the FBI he died in the jump, it worked pretty well. The FBI started telling people after the Tina Bar money find that they thought Cooper was dead. So at least SOME of the heat is off. They started scaling back their budget allotted for the search for him. 

My thought is that Cooper paid a visit to the Columbia River after November 1976 and just tossed some of the money into the river. And probably not a whole long way from Tina Bar. This time frame more accurately matches the condition of the money, and there's no way to tell when he did it. He could have waited a year or two or more after the warrant.

But how did it get to Tina Bar from there?

It was probably dredged to the spot it was found, and any shards deeper, or scattered, could be a result of the heavy equipment that was used to move the sand (dredge spoils) around the beach. Another possibility is that it washed up onto the beach and was covered up by tidal action or...again...the heavy equipment. 

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1 minute ago, Andrade1812 said:

The dredging timeline doesn't fit the diatom analysis, unfortunately. Which means the money has to be out of the bank bag and fanned out, in the Columbia, in June.

Not necessarily June, could be June but was in Spring. TBAR spot was underwater probably every or most Springs from 72-79..

 

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1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Flyjack,

You mentioned that you had some theories as to how the money got in the river and arrived on Tena Bar. I have some thoughts on that too, but I'd like to get yours.

Also, has their been any analysis done on a drop zone if Cooper jumped near the Columbia? 

I am still looking at some aspects of a new theory.. it has a two best options, both are proving impossible to prove.

I don't believe Cooper jumped into the Columbia.. based on diatoms and evidence indicates he probably did not jump South of about Brush Prairie, the 8:15 time, based on pilots statements and the oscillations.. Brush Prairie happens to be right on the railroad tracks and within walking distance/time of the Heisson store approx. 11:30 break in.. also next to the same tracks.. that isn't proven to be Cooper but is a bonus..  

But, the money was on land for some time before entering the River. Cooper could have lost some money and very rare natural event occurred in Spring that could have introduced a money bundle or maybe more into the Columbia River upstream of TBAR... that event occurred when the TBAR money spot was under water in Spring.

The money "in theory" could have come from where Cooper lost it on land or more likely from a place right on the Columbia that I have identified. I have been trying to track down the people associated with that place but after 50 years it is really tough. 

One of those people could have been Cooper, known Cooper, helped Cooper or found money Cooper lost.

 

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2 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

The dredging timeline doesn't fit the diatom analysis, unfortunately. Which means the money has to be out of the bank bag and fanned out, in the Columbia, in June.

And nine years later it turns up intact enough so that the Ingram family had thoughts they could actually spend it? Even paper money turns to mush, just like every other biodegradable thing tossed outside in the Northwest. And it doesn't take nine years to accomplish this. Heavy cardboard turns to slop. Newspaper disintegrates. T-shirts fall to pieces. One good winter season of heavy rains can do this. I have seen it happen many times and I've been traveling, hiking, and camping the PNW since about 1968. 

Once, I came upon a couple of one dollar bills someone had dropped at a remote site. I was probably the first to make it up there that spring, so they were most likely dropped by the last camper the previous late fall. They weren't even spendable, even after I tried drying them out. Nine years is a long time for paper, a biodegradable substance, to survive out in the open here. Maybe in New Mexico, maybe in Nevada. But not in Washington. They don't call it the Evergreen state for nothing. That's because it rains here all the time. I think Tom Kaye's research concluded that the Tina Bar money was definitely not exposed to the elements for nine years. I would have to look it up, but I believe he gave an 18-24 months top estimate. 

EDIT: Looks like Tom Kaye has revised some results. He now says that after his 33-month sand/water test there was almost no degradation of his test one-dollar bills. Well...hmm. Perhaps bundled paper money lasts longer I suppose. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Thanks to people like Georger and Ulis I have publicly posted only about 20% of my research...

and I have so much stuff I forget what I have already done..

I went back in my files..

 

Palmer believed the fragments found at depth were deposited by digging actions..

I agree, that is most likely, the digging was sloppy and few frags were found.

 

I found a high resolution image of the fragment found by the FBI and with 5 digits from the serial number plus the letter G matched a Cooper bill.

G21056376B was the serial number for the larger bill fragment found by the FBI.

It is not in my TBAR bill number list but I have accumulated only 85 out of the roughly 285-300 bills in the three packets. If this bill number was not from the three packets the FBI would know as the FBI had the micro of bills in order.

This is not the hi res image.

tbarfragfound.jpeg.c5f8d4aaa06f85e52a719909c8623e39.jpeg

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12 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

The dredging timeline doesn't fit the diatom analysis, unfortunately. Which means the money has to be out of the bank bag and fanned out, in the Columbia, in June.

So, I'm asking this simply because I don't know the answer. I'll leave all of these diatom scenarios up to those who know more about them than I do. But if the money was in the bank bag, would that prevent the money from having the diatoms? I guess what I'm asking is this: Is it possible that the bank bag went into the water in November, and at some point the TB money came out of the bag in the spring time, thus accounting for the diatoms? 

 

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9 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So, I'm asking this simply because I don't know the answer. I'll leave all of these diatom scenarios up to those who know more about them than I do. But if the money was in the bank bag, would that prevent the money from having the diatoms? I guess what I'm asking is this: Is it possible that the bank bag went into the water in November, and at some point the TB money came out of the bag in the spring time, thus accounting for the diatoms? 

 

I would leave the final answer up to Tom, but based on the conclusions in his paper, that scenario doesn't work. There is a distinct disconnect between the timing of the hijacking and when the TB money is exposed to the Columbia river. They are different events.

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7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Thanks to people like Georger and Ulis I have publicly posted only about 20% of my research...

and I have so much stuff I forget what I have already done..

I went back in my files..

 

Palmer believed the fragments found at depth were deposited by digging actions..

I agree, that is most likely, the digging was sloppy and few frags were found.

 

I found a high resolution image of the fragment found by the FBI and with 5 digits from the serial number plus the letter G matched a Cooper bill.

G21056376B was the serial number for the larger bill fragment found by the FBI.

It is not in my TBAR bill number list but I have accumulated only 85 out of the roughly 285-300 bills in the three packets. If this bill number was not from the three packets the FBI would know as the FBI had the micro of bills in order.

This is not the hi res image.

tbarfragfound.jpeg.c5f8d4aaa06f85e52a719909c8623e39.jpeg

Brilliant Georger where did you steal that from..

The FBI would know from the serial number if the frag came from the packets Brian found or another 4th packet. We'd probably know if that was the case.

 

And the packet vs bundle is still a mystery to Georger.. he just does not understand the significance.

All it does is explain why Carr got it wrong, people used/beleived the term "bundle" to refer to two different things.. Georger is stuck on the words, the issue is the meaning. 

Carr claimed the 3 "bundles" found were of different counts, they were not. He thought "bundle" meant the "packets".. Get it,,  you can call them whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that Carr was 100% wrong. You need to clearly distinguish a group of 100 bills from a group of groups of 100 bills.

 

 

Ulis is wrong the FBI files and crew transcripts note that Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight. I don't know how Ulis phrased the question to Rataczak or if he remembers accurately. I don't trust Ulis to extract the facts. He probably asked the question vaguely. This is a very nuanced issue and Eric refuses to accept the existence of the files..

Rataczak should be shown the FBI docs and crew transcripts that show Cooper INITIALLY asked for airstairs lowered inflight...  but Ulis refuses to acknowledge these docs even exist. 

The question to RAT isn't if Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered on takeoff... that doesn't capture the issue. Rat assumes the question is referring the fact that Cooper was convinced to change to airstairs lowered in flight. You get an answer to the wrong question.. but that is how Ulis rolls.

The better question is,, when Cooper made his initial demands the crew transcripts convey airstairs to be lowered IN FLIGHT, did Cooper later change his demand to lowered  ON TAKE OFF as the FBI files note before being convinced to lowered IN FLIGHT.  

 

The crew transcripts state it before negotiating while conveying Cooper's initial demand.. aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff. 

stiarslwrdafttakeoff.jpeg.920895a059ab42f4490076a8b0431200.jpeg

 

This is easier to read,,, HJ initially demanded aft stairs extended after take off. Later fully extended before take off.. Crew advised take off with air stairs down impossible and HJ advised asked if partial...

stairslwrafttakeoff.jpeg.7d18c99f995a35bcc618ca46fff79fdf.jpeg

 

The FBI made it clear...  Cooper changed the airstair demand from lowered after takeoff to before.

stairinitdemand.jpeg.f635c8a7e60531879eb47a210d102050.jpeg.cb49fd3e415225cf5c5a432b82755cf4.jpeg

Initial demand noted... airstairs lowered inflight.

harrisonpapairstairlowinflight.jpeg.0d52fd9d56b366de265cb183e100da68.jpeg.c9366cd96944bb2c20f8e44c35172c61.jpeg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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8 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So, I'm asking this simply because I don't know the answer. I'll leave all of these diatom scenarios up to those who know more about them than I do. But if the money was in the bank bag, would that prevent the money from having the diatoms? I guess what I'm asking is this: Is it possible that the bank bag went into the water in November, and at some point the TB money came out of the bag in the spring time, thus accounting for the diatoms? 

I don't know anything about diatoms, probably less than you do. But assuming that the money went into the Columbia originally based solely on the idea that Cooper went into the Columbia at the same time is a real stretch of the evidence. Practically all evidence available shows Cooper jumped north of the Columbia River. And that he landed either a bit north near Amboy, or a bit south of there. 

And I know this is flogging a dead horse, but I would like to know three things about the famous Amboy Parachute. 

  • Why did the Seattle FBI tell the media (and everyone else) that they decided the chute wasn't Cooper's without giving a reason beyond their flimsy 'by a preponderance of the evidence'. I already know that they were supposed to take up to their lab on a Wednesday during the main week they were looking at it. But they didn't. Instead, they dumped it in Earl Cossey's driveway and he told them he knew it wasn't Cooper's 'in less than ten seconds.' But the reason he gives is because he says it was made of silk, which we know now is not true. It is at least nylon, and probably ripstop judging from the crosshatch pattern in the blow ups of the pictures. 
     
  • Why did the FBI, after saying they were consulting experts on the chute, only allow Earl Cossey ALONE to examine it? What was the big secret here? It's just an old chute they dug up down in Amboy, not Super Secret Squirrel microfilm. (Later, I was told by two different Seattle FBI agents that such experts were only consulted by phone, and none of them were allowed to see it except Cossey.) 
     
  • Why did the FBI not dispute Cossey's silk claim, when they must have known that was a false statement. Cossey would easily be able to tell the difference between silk and nylon. You can do the Bic lighter test in a few seconds anyway. Yet they allowed his false statement to stand. 
     
  • Why did the FBI, years later, claim that any information about the chute was 'evidence in an ongoing case,' when they had already gone public with pictures, spoken to the media, and made public statements/answered emails and phone calls about it? 

Okay. That's four things.


My conclusion:  The Seattle FBI is hiding something about the Amboy parachute. And remember something here, because it's important. If the FBI actually came to the conclusion that the Amboy parachute WAS Cooper's, they might decide to issue a flimsy 'by a preponderance of the evidence' statement and keep that information under wraps. One reason might be because if they admit it could be Cooper's, they would also be admitting that Cooper got to the ground safely and escaped. It takes a live person to remove a chute from its container, dispose of the container elsewhere, and then bury the canopy. And for decades prior, their official line had been that Cooper probably died in the jump. Another, even GREATER possibility, is that they figured out it was Cooper's and that made it big time evidence. In that case, they would keep that fact secret, like they have a few other things in this case. 

My money says that the Seattle FBI did not just toss this chute into their dumpster after they issued their flimsy statements. I think they still have it somewhere. Also...although Tom Kaye has requested to examine it, and has an open offer to put his team to work on it...the FBI has refused his request. Funny thing, since they allowed his team to look at practically all the other physical evidence. Something does not smell right about all this. It never has. One thing I've considered is why the Seattle FBI would refuse Tom Kaye on the chute. If they had dismissed it, and disposed of it years prior, why wouldn't they just tell him they trashed it years ago? (Instead of dodging his request)

*I will be covering this subject in detail at the Cooper Party, assuming we still go through with the party.*

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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4 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly, maybe you can assist here. How many parachutes are mentioned in the FOIA files? I know of one north of the Lewis River, the one on the S. Fork Lewis River, and the Amboy chute. I know there were others, did you keep track?

Lots of them, I haven't kept track. Off the top of may head maybe a dozen...

Without Cossey, as sketchy/conflicting as his descriptions were, there is no way to confirm any chutes now. 

Any chutes found now or in the past are unverifiable and have no evidentiary value.

 

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Quote

Lots of them, I haven't kept track. Off the top of may head maybe a dozen...

I don't believe it was a dozen, or even close to that number. Maybe three or four at most. And one was just a small pilot chute.

Quote

Without Cossey, as sketchy/conflicting as his descriptions were, there is no way to confirm any chutes now. 

We know the size of the chute used by Cooper. There are numbers on the Amboy chute, but no one yet has been able to figure out what they mean. 

Quote

Any chutes found now or in the past are unverifiable and have no evidentiary value.

The Amboy chute CAN be verified by measurement, and other factors...if someone like Tom Kaye and his team were allowed access to it. A few days after it was brought to Seattle for first examination, the FBI released a statement. 'It's the right size, the right color, and found in the right place..." Just saying. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Latest update(s) on the Cooper Party:

Apps continue to trickle in occasionally via the Contact Form at AB of Seattle. A couple of them have come straight through email. (Either way is okay) The latest one offered us a beer sponsorship (he's in charge of that at a brewery), and he wants to bring some of his friends along, an Oregon-based motorcycle group. Older guys, mostly. Straight guys he tells me, not a gang. They just take trips together sometimes. I told him okay on all of that. 

March newsletter going out tonight. I took a few people off the VIP email list who I believe are not interested, mainly because they are ignoring us and going with Eric's event. No problem there and no hard feelings. They are two separate events, months apart, and WAY different. If you don't get the March email in your box tomorrow, and you WERE getting it...that is why. If you want back on the update email list, let me know. 

I set a cutoff date of May 5 to decide whether to allow the newspaper articles at that time. If we have enough 'recruits' for the Cooper Party by then to risk it, I will cooperate with the newspapers and their articles at that time. You have to understand that if we authorize these articles...then I am fully committed to the Festival. No going back then. No canceling. 

If we DON'T have enough people on the list by May 5, I will put off the event until the second weekend of July and then wait until June 15 to contact the newspapers....IF we have enough people by June 15.

If it is a crash and burn by June 15, I will cancel the event and any possible articles about it.

Right now our target is about 200-250 people on the list, people who applied and gave email addresses and names and an interest in attending. (We have about 70 right now) We figure if we have this 200-250 target met by no later than June 15, then probably 1/3 to 1/2 will actually show up in July, and we will feel safe releasing the budget and going to Amazon and Costco for whatever else we need. If we meet the target by May 5, then we do it in June as originally planned. Otherwise it's July. Either way, if we authorize the news articles, that's a full commitment and we will probably pick up a few attendees from them. BUT...I don't want to go in short of people and DEPEND on the articles to fill up the rest of the slots. That is irresponsible, a big risk, and I won't do it. 

Our bottom line for actual attendees is to exceed the number of people who formerly attended the Ariel Store parties, and that was about 100-150 people in any given year. If we figure at least that many will actually show up...either for scheduling in June, or later in July...then we can authorize the budget. Otherwise it would be better to cancel. 

All of these things will be covered in the March update group email tonight. 

Hope I didn't confuse everyone with all that. I know it's complicated, but so is trying to organize a Cooper Festival nine miles off the main highway in the middle of a pandemic. As well as being responsible for a fairly decent budget to do it. It would be a waste of time and money to finalize the party unless we are certain that an absolute MINIMUM of 120 people or more will actually show in person. B)

I guess the bottom line is that if Cooper fans in the PNW want this bad enough, they will take the opportunity. If they don't, then Greg and I will take the women on a vacation to the Oregon coast with no regrets. No one will be able to say we didn't make the offer, or that we didn't give it our best. 

Not all is doom and gloom and doubt here. Confidence is still pretty strong. Greg has pointed out that there is a fair amount of traffic on those Forest Service roads in that area. It's one of the most popular areas for campers and off-roaders. He says if we do it in July, we'll probably get a lot of people who drive past and will want to set up with us anyway, once they see what's going down.

The banner will help, he says. We're also hanging a US flag and a WA state flag at the site for the weekend. Banner says: 50th Anniversary DB Cooper Party. 1971-2021 Has pictures of Cooper, parachute jumper with briefcase, the usual stuff. Not too large, but visible hanging up fairly high at the entry. Eight feet wide by two feet, with grommets. Should work okay.  

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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