DB Cooper

[olemisscub 466]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Flo wrote his demands on a plain envelope,, I assume it was his..  though they don't make that clear I can't imagine another plain envelope appearing then.

Yes, my assumption has always been that it was the envelope that she wrote on. So why would he care about that being returned to him? What's interesting is that in Flo's 302 she says that she wrote his demands on a note pad that she pulled from her purse. Yet Tina and Rat both say it was written on the envelope. 

I just noticed something. Your post above is of Tina's Reno 302 and it says "She also at that time..." Yet my scan from Himmy's files (and Geoff Gray's) say "SCHAFFNER at that time."

Ok, so it looks like they spotted that error at some point and the later versions of the Reno 302 have it corrected. 

[olemisscub 466]

6 hours ago, georger said:

Isn't the envelope the same envelope he delivered his note to Flo in? She still had it and used it to write down his demands ... ?   

This is correct, according to Tina and Rat's 302's. Yet Flo says she wrote it on a note pad from her purse. 

[FLYJACK 654]

34 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This is correct, according to Tina and Rat's 302's. Yet Flo says she wrote it on a note pad from her purse. 

Flo's note pad was used for the notes she made in the cockpit. Maybe somebody conflated them..

If Rat confirmed writing on the envelope that is solid.

Point is, Cooper wanted all communications back...  so, it makes sense if the matchbook had writing in it. Retaining the matchbook was not about fingerprints. 

AND that supports the contention that Cooper didn't care about prints.. because he had obfuscated them.

The long time dominant narrative was that he took the matchbook back because of prints. FALSE

Edited January 18 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

49 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Flo's note pad was used for the notes she made in the cockpit. Maybe somebody conflated them..

If Rat confirmed writing on the envelope that is solid.

Point is, Cooper wanted all communications back...  so, it makes sense if the matchbook had writing in it. Retaining the matchbook was not about fingerprints. 

AND that supports the contention that Cooper didn't care about prints.. because he had obfuscated them.

The long time dominant narrative was that he took the matchbook back because of prints. FALSE

Yes, I'm going with Rat's statement as well. The more specific a statement is then the more reliable it is. Rat's statement is quite specific. Much like Tina's statement about putting the matchbook in the seat pocket (which she apparently reconfirmed in Tosaw...except she changed it to the ashtray and not seat pocket)

As for the matchbook, it may have had writing in it from an earlier time, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he wrote anything while on the plane nor any evidence that Tina ferried any notes to the cockpit, so I think it's safe to assume that Farrell was incorrectly interpreting Rat's statement by writing that the match was used to convey notes. Also recall Rat's speech. He never saw the matchbook. He said he learned about what was on it when Tina spoke at the debriefing. 

And I agree that Cooper didn't care about prints. Not even in the least. 

Edited January 18 by olemisscub

[CooperNWO305 146]

I remember debating Shutter on this one. I would not have thought much of the notes in a matchbook until I saw it in North by Northwest. It would be interesting if he did write notes like in the movie. Some pics about 2/3 down in the post. 
 

https://dbcooperhijack.com/2019/01/04/d-b-cooper-cary-grant-and-the-1959-film-north-by-northwest/

Has anyone actually tried to put glue on their fingers? Airplane glue? And seen how it works? I have not tried it, although I do remember as a kid making models that the stuff was pretty hard to get off my fingers  

 

[olemisscub 466]

19 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I remember debating Shutter on this one. I would not have thought much of the notes in a matchbook until I saw it in North by Northwest. It would be interesting if he did write notes like in the movie. 

 

Cooper writing notes in the matchbook, or writing anything at all during the hijacking, gets the George C. Scott treatment from me... 

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, I'm going with Rat's statement as well. The more specific a statement is then the more reliable it is. Rat's statement is quite specific. Much like Tina's statement about putting the matchbook in the seat pocket (which she apparently reconfirmed in Tosaw...except she changed it to the ashtray and not seat pocket)

As for the matchbook, it may have had writing in it from an earlier time, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he wrote anything while on the plane nor any evidence that Tina ferried any notes to the cockpit, so I think it's safe to assume that Farrell was incorrectly interpreting Rat's statement by writing that the match was used to convey notes. Also recall Rat's speech. He never saw the matchbook. He said he learned about what was on it when Tina spoke at the debriefing. 

And I agree that Cooper didn't care about prints. Not even in the least. 

You have created a red herring,, 

A note or something written on the matchbook doesn't have to be sent to the cockpit to be true. It doesn't claim it was.. 

You have rejected writing on the matchbook based on a false assumption.

There was communications with the stews and to the cockpit mostly via interphone with Tina.

 

Again, if not for fingerprints why would Cooper take back an empty matchbook... I can't think of any reason... other than notes written in it as stated in the FBI file.

[olemisscub 466]

20 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

 

Has anyone actually tried to put glue on their fingers? Airplane glue? And seen how it works? I have not tried it, although I do remember as a kid making models that the stuff was pretty hard to get off my fingers  

I actually asked John Detlor about this. I asked him if it was just a Hollywood trope that criminals would put glue on their fingers to hide their prints and he said that it was not a trope; that criminals really did that back then. 

[FLYJACK 654]

20 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I remember debating Shutter on this one. I would not have thought much of the notes in a matchbook until I saw it in North by Northwest. It would be interesting if he did write notes like in the movie. Some pics about 2/3 down in the post. 
 

https://dbcooperhijack.com/2019/01/04/d-b-cooper-cary-grant-and-the-1959-film-north-by-northwest/

Has anyone actually tried to put glue on their fingers? Airplane glue? And seen how it works? I have not tried it, although I do remember as a kid making models that the stuff was pretty hard to get off my fingers  

 

There are many ways to obfuscate fingerprints..

Super glue.. or coatings

chemicals.. burn..

abrasion.. sandpaper

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

You have created a red herring,, 

A note or something written on the matchbook doesn't have to be sent to the cockpit to be true. It doesn't claim it was.. 

You have rejected writing on the matchbook based on a false assumption.

There was communications with the stews and to the cockpit mostly via interphone with Tina.

 

A red herring? I'm going with the primary sources. Your entire belief that there was something written on the matchbook is based on an assumption that he must have had something written in it if he wanted it back. 

These aren't assumptions:

- Tina never indicates that the matches played any role except to light his cigarettes.

- Tina never indicates that Cooper wrote anything. If he had, I'm sure she'd have noted which hand he used, right? 

 

[olemisscub 466]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Again, if not for fingerprints why would Cooper take back an empty matchbook... I can't think of any reason... other than notes written in it as stated in the FBI file.

And I again point out the envelope. Why would he have wanted an envelope back that didn't contain his writing?

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

And I again point out the envelope. Why would he have wanted an envelope back that didn't contain his writing?

The envelope did have writing on it.. 

[olemisscub 466]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The envelope did have writing on it.. 

Flo's writing. So why would he care? 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

A red herring? I'm going with the primary sources. Your entire belief that there was something written on the matchbook is based on an assumption that he must have had something written in it if he wanted it back. 

These aren't assumptions:

- Tina never indicates that the matches played any role except to light his cigarettes.

- Tina never indicates that Cooper wrote anything. If he had, I'm sure she'd have noted which hand he used, right? 

 

No, you are confused..

The FBI file states that he wanted the matchbook back that had writing in it.. you forgot that.

You, claim that is an error.. possible but your argument is bogus. So, I ask for a reasonable argument for why he took the matchbook back.. You claimed the envelope was taken back but it had writing on it. 

You claim it was an error because it wasn't sent to the cockpit.. it didn't have to be to have writing in it. Red herring.

Though it is always possible the FBI claim is an error there is no evidence or reasonable argument to refute it,, nothing.

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Flo's writing. So why would he care? 

He asked for all notes back with all writing..  that is clear in the files.

That included the demands he dictated to Tina..

Edited January 18 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

[Cola 26]

29 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

As for the matchbook, it may have had writing in it from an earlier time, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he wrote anything while on the plane nor any evidence that Tina ferried any notes to the cockpit, so I think it's safe to assume that Farrell was incorrectly interpreting Rat's statement by writing that the match was used to convey notes. Also recall Rat's speech. He never saw the matchbook. He said he learned about what was on it when Tina spoke at the debriefing. 

And I agree that Cooper didn't care about prints. Not even in the least. 

 

I take it that Tina struck the last match? If there were writing therein I think it would have registered with her looking at an empty cover.

If she saw the matches being used for notes then I'd have to believe she would have interpreted the action of taking the matches as understandable. The way I read her statement about Coops removing the matches form the trash is that it is a little bewildering to her.  

Rat was aware of the matches during the interview saying Coops was -especially careful to see that nothing was left behind taking the matchbook cover

 

Coops did write on the plane there is evidence of this..

pg. DB-32393

 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

I take it that Tina struck the last match? If there were writing therein I think it would have registered with her looking at an empty cover.

If she saw the matches being used for notes then I'd have to believe she would have interpreted the action of taking the matches as understandable. The way I read her statement about Coops removing the matches form the trash is that it is a little bewildering to her.  

Rat was aware of the matches during the interview saying Coops was -especially careful to see that nothing was left behind taking the matchbook cover

 

Coops did write on the plane there is evidence of this..

pg. DB-32393

 

There could have been writing in the matchbook after Cooper had retrieved it..

The second image ended up being a false lead.. 

The last image refers to Tina dictating his demands..

[olemisscub 466]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Though it is always possible the FBI claim is an error there is no evidence or reasonable argument to refute it,, nothing.

I didn't forget about the FBI document. I concluded that we had moved past discussing that because it insinuates that the matchbook was carried to the cockpit, unless you think "convey notes" is some cute way for saying that he wrote a note and handed it to Tina. So I'm not ignoring it, I just thought we had moved past it.

And my dude...this is silly. No evidence or reasonable argument to refute it? Aside from the fact that Tina herself never says ANYTHING at all about the matches being used to "convey notes". It's not mentioned in Tosaw either.

I don't think you can hang your hat on a single statement written years later in an FBI report, especially when it is contradicted by Tina's own statements from that very night. If he had pulled out a pen and wrote something down on a matchbook and passed it to Tina, don't you think she'd have mentioned that? Of course she would have. He had no need to write anything in a matchbook. He just whispered instructions to her. This is not even mentioning how awkward it is to write a note in a matchbook sitting in an airplane seat while you are maintaining a pretext that you're going to detonate a bomb at any moment. I can't see it. There was no reason for Cooper to have done such a thing nor is there any evidence that he did so. 

Cooper whipping out a pen and handwriting something on the matchbook would have come up at some point in the files apart from appearing one time in a review document written years later. 

And just look at the similarity in Rat's 302 and Farrell's paragraph. Do you think Farrell wrote that long report from memory? Of course not. He had the 302's in front of him when he was writing it. Quite easy to see how you could morph Rat's statement into what Farrell ended up writing. And I think perhaps the biggest tell that Farrell is relying on Rat's 302 is that phrase "match cover." As I said, the only two times that phrase is found in the 40,000 pages we have so far is Rat's 302 and Farrell's report. Given that we know Farrell was almost certainly relying on the 302's when constructing his report, the mistake seems obvious. 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

7 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Yes,, 

Olemiss takes the position that it is an error..  that is possible but Olemiss doesn't have a legit argument for his assertion. 

So, without a reasonable argument or evidence to refute it we should accept it as likely true...  like most things in this case the caveat being it may be an error.

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I didn't forget about the FBI document. I concluded that we had moved past discussing that because it insinuates that the matchbook was carried to the cockpit, unless you think "convey notes" is some cute way for saying that he wrote a note and handed it to Tina. So I'm not ignoring it, I just thought we had moved past it.

And my dude...this is silly. No evidence or reasonable argument to refute it? Aside from the fact that Tina herself never says ANYTHING at all about the matches being used to "convey notes". It's not mentioned in Tosaw either.

I don't think you can hang your hat on a single statement written years later in an FBI report, especially when it is contradicted by Tina's own statements from that very night. If he had pulled out a pen and wrote something down on a matchbook and passed it to Tina, don't you think she'd have mentioned that? Of course she would have. He had no need to write anything in a matchbook. He just whispered instructions to her. This is not even mentioning how awkward it is to write a note in a matchbook sitting in an airplane seat while you are maintaining a pretext that you're going to detonate a bomb at any moment. I can't see it. There was no reason for Cooper to have done such a thing nor is there any evidence that he did so. 

Cooper whipping out a pen and handwriting something on the matchbook would have come up at some point in the files apart from appearing one time in a review document written years later. 

And just look at the similarity in Rat's 302 and Farrell's paragraph. Do you think Farrell wrote that long report from memory? Of course not. He had the 302's in front of him when he was writing it. Quite easy to see how you could morph Rat's statement into what Farrell ended up writing. And I think perhaps the biggest tell that Farrell is relying on Rat's 302 is that phrase "match cover." As I said, the only two times that phrase is found in the 40,000 pages we have so far is Rat's 302 and Farrell's report. Given that we know Farrell was almost certainly relying on the 302's when constructing his report, the mistake seems obvious. 

 

 

This is false, it doesn't claim it went to the cockpit. "Insinuation" is your own bias.

And Tina doesn't refute it...

You have made this same argument before and it is bogus. You claim that if we don't have positive confirmation then it didn't happen,, logic 101.. absence of evidence isn't evidence.

You tried the cockpit argument.. FAIL

You tried the envelope argument.. FAIL

You tried the writing wasn't Cooper's argument.. FAIL

You tried the absence of evidence argument... FAIL

You tried misstating my position.. FAIL

 

All you have is an opinion that the FBI file is an error with NO reasonable argument to back it up...

I think you are just trying to justify your own belief without any rational argument.

As I said, it is possible it is an error but you have no argument to support it.

Edited January 18 by FLYJACK

[Cola 26]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There could have been writing in the matchbook after Cooper had retrieved it..

The second image ended up being a false lead.. 

The last image refers to Tina dictating his demands..

Agreed, Coops could written in the matchbook after retrieving, but it would be smarter at some point if Coops just wrote on an inflight magazine.

Please - Show me within the record how the parts of a magazine were a false lead...

As I  have an understanding of these prints here, it appears to me that the agency seemed to anchor on these palm prints over the next 40 years as a primary source of eliminating candidates. The prints from these materials were of value and may have been the primary elimination prints! Maybe someone has worked out the  full scope of print sources and is willing to share???   

Tina did relay  - but this does not mean he did not write instructions down or that she did not read off instructions form him to the the pilots.

 

The fact still remains that the agency is crediting in pg. DB-32393  that as many as 4+ witnesses saw him write.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

18 minutes ago, Cola said:

Agreed, Coops could written in the matchbook after retrieving, but it would be smarter at some point if Coops just wrote on an inflight magazine.

Please - Show me within the record how the parts of a magazine were a false lead...

As I  have an understanding of these prints here, it appears to me that the agency seemed to anchor on these palm prints over the next 40 years as a primary source of eliminating candidates. The prints from these materials were of value and may have been the primary elimination prints! Maybe someone has worked out the  full scope of print sources and is willing to share???   

Tina did relay  - but this does not mean he did not write instructions down or that she did not read off instructions form him to the the pilots.

 

The fact still remains that the agency is crediting in pg. DB-32393  that as many as 4+ witnesses saw him write.

 

Palm print was from the seating area.. they don't know if it was Cooper.

Cooper's note was written in felt pen they found a part of a magazine that had felt pen writing and wanted to ask witnesses about it. It wasn't.

Witnesses are not claiming to have seen him actively write, they are referring to the initial note.. pre-written by Cooper in felt pen.

Doesn't mean he didn't write.. that file just does not confirm it.

Edited January 18 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

12 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This is false, it doesn't claim it went to the cockpit. "Insinuation" is your own bias.

And Tina doesn't refute it...

You have made this same argument before and it is bogus. You claim that if we don't have positive confirmation then it didn't happen,, logic 101.. absence of evidence isn't evidence.

You tried the cockpit argument.. FAIL

You tried the envelope argument.. FAIL

You tried the writing wasn't Cooper's argument.. FAIL

You tried the absence of evidence argument... FAIL

You tried misstating my position.. FAIL

 

All you have is an opinion that the FBI file is an error with NO reasonable argument to back it up...

I think you are just trying to justify your own belief without any rational argument.

As I said, it is possible it is an error but you have no argument to support it.

Good heavens!

[olemisscub 466]

That same report says Cooper was wearing the dummy chute. Fly, are you prepared to make this Cooper canon?