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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Robert,

You are throwing out bogus claims.

I am not interested in straightening out and unwinding your nonsense.

 

Look...I don't see where I made any claims to anything. I tossed some common sense propositions out there is all. It's logical to assume that the moment the FBI heard ANOTHER guy was hijacking a jet and asking for money and parachutes...and they still had an unsolved Cooper case on the books from a mere six months ago...while that investigation was still going full blast...that the first thing they would have wondered if it was Cooper doing a summer rerun on them. 

I guess it's a simple proposition. You want to link a known hijacker, one who spent a dozen years getting three meals and a bed from the Feds for doing what he did...as being Cooper to boot. If the FBI didn't seem to think he was Cooper, and had methods to investigate this possibility, and came up zero...what makes you think YOU know better than they do? They investigated Hahneman thoroughly for sure. He was going to jail, also for sure. They had witnesses aplenty to the Cooper hijacking from just a few months prior. 

That thing you posted about the FBI meeting where they agreed no Cooper conviction could happen without a confession...that meeting was years AFTER both Hahneman and Cooper pulled off hijackings. The FBI would have had easy methods to prove Hahneman and Cooper were the same guy. 

Line-ups with the witnesses, pictures, (not sketches) and interviews with everyone Hahneman ever knew. Finding out where he was on 11/24/71. Even questioning him personally. There's a big difference between doing an investigation on someone when you don't know who they are...and doing one on someone you already have behind bars. 

If you ever get a yes to an FOIA request asking for the full investigatory files on Hahneman, you will undoubtedly find your answer in there on why he was never made a suspect in the Cooper hijacking.  

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Article from when Hahneman was sentenced. Sounds like he did speak to FBI agents, and didn't necessarily hide behind his lawyer. Wonder what he told them. 

HahnemanArticle.jpg.c256920c9df57a9685dbaa8df6ab8aac.jpg

Unless they had obvious evidence dismissing him as Cooper, you have to believe they questioned him about the Cooper hijacking. Even if he goes into denial, they had a number of ways to prove his guilt. This was only a few short months after the Cooper caper. 

You know, if you wanted to we could do a debate about all this at the Cooper Party next year. Despite an obvious lack of support for the event from your so-called 'experts' in Cooperland, we're not having any problems filling the available slots. Folks keep sending messages asking to at least be put on the email list. Truth is, you don't need 'Cooper Experts' for an event like this. When they held the parties in Ariel, 98% of the people who showed up were simply Cooper FANS. If I went on stage to give some serious talk on Cooper, people would be bored out of their minds. B) 

That's the target group anyway. Cooper FANS. People at Cooper parties aren't there to solve the case. They come to socialize and have fun related TO Cooper. The conventions are for the experts. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Article from when Hahneman was sentenced. Sounds like he did speak to FBI agents, and didn't necessarily hide behind his lawyer. Wonder what he told them. 

HahnemanArticle.jpg.c256920c9df57a9685dbaa8df6ab8aac.jpg

Unless they had obvious evidence dismissing him as Cooper, you have to believe they questioned him about the Cooper hijacking. Even if he goes into denial, they had a number of ways to prove his guilt. This was only a few short months after the Cooper caper. 

You know, if you wanted to we could do a debate about all this at the Cooper Party next year. Despite an obvious lack of support for the event from your so-called 'experts' in Cooperland, we're not having any problems filling the available slots. Folks keep sending messages asking to at least be put on the email list. Truth is, you don't need 'Cooper Experts' for an event like this. When they held the parties in Ariel, 98% of the people who showed up were simply Cooper FANS. If I went on stage to give some serious talk on Cooper, people would be bored out of their minds. B) 

That's the target group anyway. Cooper FANS. People at Cooper parties aren't there to solve the case. They come to socialize and have fun related TO Cooper. The conventions are for the experts. 

When Hahneman was captured he talked a bit about his hijacking, but when he got back to the US and lawyered up he even told his lawyer not to talk in court. Why, Hahneman had a very high level connection that intervened in his case.. if they interviewed him about anything, he wasn't co-operating.

 

You're not really going to get context from newspaper articles.

The newspapers described him as aggressive and mean, that isn't reflected in the FBI files.. He engaged in small chatter, joked and let a stew go who was suffering from stress.

Hotel workers described him as polite..

The noose incident newpapers refer to has no context, what actually happened was the FBI feigned a mechanical problem with the plane. Cooper was given everything except the knapsack, he had it easy compared to Hahneman.

The FBI faked a mechanical problem and had snipers lined up,, Hahneman knew what they were up to and demanded a backup 727. He knew they had snipers ready to take him out so as they transferred planes he surrounded himself with the crew and held a gun in the back of the Captain.. the noose part was not confirmed by the FBI. I don't know if that was true or an exaggeration. 

I have reports from two FBI snipers, neither mentioned a noose.

Cooper never faced that type of situation. Hahneman's "aggressive" actions were caused by the FBI trying to take him out with snipers and faking a mechanical issue forcing him to walk across the tarmac to another plane.

Would Cooper have remained polite in the same situation?? don't think so.

The Hahneman hijacking details were very similar to the Cooper hijacking except for the use of the gun.. Hahneman also threatened to blow up the plane with a briefcase bomb. The big difference for Cooper was the crew didn't tell the passengers they were being hijacked. Cooper had it easier. For Hahneman the crew announced right away that the plane was hijacked and that elevated the tension and aggressiveness of some passengers on the plane.

So, the environments were quite different but many many details were consistent.

 

Cooper was described by witnesses as swarthy, Latin/Mexican in appearance, descent and features..  

That is undisputed and clear throughout the FBI files.. and that eliminates almost all the high profile Cooper suspects.

Edited by FLYJACK

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Well, okay. 

I have read all these things. When you get ready to publish your results, I'm sure you will let us know. Even with all the evidence we have gathered against Christiansen, both physical and testimonial, there is no way I can tell people that KC is definitely 'the guy' and no one else can possibly BE Cooper. Many years ago, even prior to Troy Bentz coming forward on his own accord, and Geestman's niece sitting there telling people in a calm voice how she saw Kenny constructing a phony bomb just two weeks prior to the hijacking...there was a time I thought I was sure KC was the guy. 

But these days I am 'no problem' with giving others a chance to prove their own cases, unless their premise is completely ridiculous...as was in the case of Walter Reca, which I believe is a complete lie from start to end. I have the same opinion regarding LD Cooper, mainly because when I interviewed Marla Cooper, she couldn't answer the relevant questions and some of her answers went directly against the known evidence. 

As far as pinning everything on the idea that Cooper was either Latin or Mexican, that's a stretch. Maybe he just had a good tan and people thought he was from south of the border. Witness descriptions and sketches are a tricky thing to go on. Quite a number of people got a look at Gary Ridgway, aka the Green River Killer, and in his nearly 20 year killing spree, his sketch was plastered all over Puget Sound. Even in the 7-11 stores, yet no one recognized him from that, not even the very detectives who interviewed him during the investigation. And his sketch and wanted poster were on the wall in the same office where they interviewed him. So it is hard to base a lot on that. To top it off, it turns out that he lived in the same neighborhood where the main part of the investigation was going on for all those years. It was only DNA that finally caught him. 

The biggest problem I see in convicting Hahneman for BOTH hijackings is the idea that the FBI undoubtedly wondered if he might be Cooper from the start...and if so...why Hahneman is not even mentioned in any of the FBI files on Cooper. At least so far. Maybe there will be more releases. But when you have a guy in custody only a few months after the Cooper crime, and the witnesses are still fresh, the Cooper investigation still red-hot, you have to wonder why he wasn't officially linked to Cooper, if in fact he WAS Cooper. Maybe the FBI knows something about Hahneman neither you or I (or anyone else) knows. He could have had a solid alibi for 11/24/71 for example. Or the Cooper witnesses were consulted and said, "no way". It's hard to tell without seeing the FBI files on Hahneman, and what the FBI did with investigating him after his arrest.

You understand of course there is a basic truth here. IF it turned out that Hahneman was Cooper, and the FBI missed that and continued their investigation into Cooper for another thirty-plus years, spending millions of bucks and man-hours galore chasing Cooper....that this would be the stupidest thing and the biggest mistake the FBI ever made. And because Hahneman was caught, convicted, and jailed for a dozen years by the Feds makes this the hardest part of the Hahneman saga to believe. It's hard to imagine they would be THAT dumb, especially when Hahneman pulled off a similar crime only six months or so AFTER Cooper. It is almost beyond belief. Almost.  

In Other Cooper News:  

Two things. I keep wondering what happened to Eric Ulis since the TV show aired. Haven't seen him around since. His website on Cooper Con has been abandoned to someone who sells beauty tips on the internet. (First name Vanessa, last name begins with 'L,' and she's 43 years old.) I don't attend these conventions, but I know many Cooper folk DO, and enjoy them...so I suggest you inquire to Eric what's going on with him. It's possible he will still host another convention, and just decided to change his website on that and do another website closer to the convention. The website homepage gives an address and phone number in Tucson, AZ (Vanessa's)...so maybe Eric gave the site to someone he knows in Arizona, since he is FROM Arizona, as we all know. I have no idea what's going on with all that. You would have to ask him. I notice the email address on the website is the one he formally used for inquiries on his previous convention. But it's also the address you get automatically by OWNING the website. On a side note, I figured Eric got hammered enough due to the non-results of the TV show, so I removed both videos I had on him from YouTube, as well as a couple of articles I wrote at WordPress Cooper about his Sheridan Peterson claims. 

And yes, there is a Cooper event going for 2021, but it's not another convention. I'm sure you've all been to the page, which was (again) heavily updated just yesterday. It's very early, but it's also a fluid thing. I've been meeting with the planning committee folks (just two people so far) as well as Greg the Techie guy personally. They keep coming up with tweaks and suggestions on what we need, or to make adjustments on the logistics of the whole thing. Frankly, it ain't easy to organize something like this and make it work. But we will. Recently, I invited the folks over at a certain website for Nissan owners to attend, and a couple of them have said they will if they are available in June. We're getting a lot of requests to be put on the email list, although only about a third of these people are actually committed to attend. It's hard to commit to something still six months out, of course. I don't think we will get heavy input until after Christmas, or until a vaccine for Covid-19 starts getting distributed to the general public. Being vaccinated is a requirement to attend, no ifs ands or buts. Since there is no vaccine YET...we're still very early on in the process here. But there will be no cancellation of the Cooper Party. We're still aiming for the first weekend in June, and only the availability of a Covid vaccine, or really bad weather could change that. We've already spent over $2,000 total on items for the party, and we haven't even purchased the Amazon gift card prizes yet for the Lookalike Contest, or any of the perishables, or the second shower tent and flush toilet. (Need both men's and women's separate facilities, as Greg reminded us.) We should be okay though. Our total budget allowed is $5,000, with $775 dedicated to the gift cards. Only if you are reading this now at Dropzone do you know this. We haven't made the prize amounts public at the website, but they go like this in a nutshell:  $250 for overall winner of the contest in the three possible categories. (stew, crew member, or Cooper) $100 for winner in each separate category. $50 for second place in each category, $25 for third. Total: $775. Anyone attending is eligible (except Greg or myself), and I will not be doing the judging. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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3 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Fly, have you ever considered that at the time the FBI was possibly more interested in McCoy as Cooper and didn't give as much consideration to Hahneman? They were less than a month apart, right? McCoy first, then Hahneman a few weeks later.

Yes, they may have focussed more on McCoy but they did at least some investigation into Hanheman. They showed the sketch from his hijacking before he was id'd to a NORJAK witness and they said "not identical".. but like the Cooper sketch witnesses thought it wasn't perfect, the sketch was not identical to Hahneman.. I believe later they showed his pic to witnesses but redacted his name, so results are unknown. The problem with Hahneman is he has an unmemorable look, I have a dozen images of him and he looks like 3 different people as he gained/lost weight and changed his hair.. The sketch resembles him but isn't perfect.

Why would Hahneman be redacted? They only redact living people.. Hahneman died 30 years ago.

They also took prints from Hahneman's hijacked plane before he was id'd and compared to NORJAK prints with negative results. But like Cooper they weren't even sure they were Hahneman's prints.

I have no plans to publish anything, I loathe writing. Perhaps I can find somebody to pull together my material in a concise form.

 

here is what I can say..

Hahneman had connections in very very high places. There were interventions in his case.

The FBI claimed Hahneman returned from Vietnam in Jan 72,, that is 100% false and easily disproved. I don't know why they would say that, maybe they were given false info.. Witnesses have him returning  earlier. Hahneman fled to Honduras in Jan 72 to set up residency using an altered name and false birthdate claiming Honduran citizenship which he hadn't used for 30 years. He returned to the US to commit the May hijacking.

Also, I am chipping away at Hahneman's activities in Vietnam, he seemed to be both military and a contractor.. WW2, Korea and Vietnam. I can't figure out how that works in Vietnam.. He had security clearances and may have worked for the CIA but I can't crack that.. It is hard to get info for Vietnam.. his military records were destroyed in the fire. He moved all over the world working in sketchy places but spent the years before NORJAK in SE Asia.. He was a loner and rarely visited his family in even when he was back in the US.

Hahneman was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 1971 in Vietnam.. and his mother said that his time in Vietnam changed him..

E. Howard hunt was asked directly about Hahneman and the CIA coup in Guatemala during the Senate Hearing into the CIA activities... 

Reading between the lines.. (speculating) Hahneman did contract work for the CIA and maybe they covered up him being Cooper because the CIA was under the microscope in '72 and Hahneman's connections and knowledge would have made them look bad. Hahneman's high level contact cut a deal with the State Department. The FBI may not have been aware... the tell, there is nearly zero info on Hahneman's hijacking after the incident which is an amazing story itself and ZERO consideration that he may have been Cooper. It is as if he was completely ghosted.. by design. Labelling him a copycat was genius, nobody looked at him. However, he wasn't a copycat, according to US officials he had planned his hijacking for almost year, right after his '71 cancer diagnosis in Vietnam.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

As far as pinning everything on the idea that Cooper was either Latin or Mexican, that's a stretch. Maybe he just had a good tan and people thought he was from south of the border. Witness descriptions and sketches are a tricky thing to go on.

 

The tan thing doesn't fly, no witness said a tan.. it was November.

They said Latin/Mexican/Indian appearance, features, descent and blood.. that isn't just a swarthy complexion. It is all through the FBI files, not some one off reference.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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44 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The tan thing doesn't fly, no witness said a tan.. it was November.

They said Latin/Mexican/Indian appearance, features, descent and blood.. that isn't just a swarthy complexion. It is all through the FBI files, not some one off reference.

I'm not completely buying this, but only because the FBI persistently names Cooper's race as Caucasian. I don't have to tell you that's what they said on the wanted posters since Day One until today. Wonder if any of the local TV news back east got some sound bites of Hahneman, along with video, when he was either going TO or leaving...court. They usually do this, and it would be interesting to see/hear. Also, I have heard nothing regarding a possible alibi (or the lack of one) for Hahneman 11/24/71. If he were from the Great Northwest, this might not be so important. But if you are going to have him traveling to Portland, Oregon all the way from the east coast around the date of the hijacking, you have to try and establish whether he had an alibi for the date in question. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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You need to understand the use of words at the time, not today.

Latinos back then were called white..

Witnesses for Hahneman's hijacking also described him as white, olive, spanish, latin American, swarthy. 

His military records say race > White, there was no option for "latin" only "other"

Widespread use of "Latino" only and dropping the white caught on a few years after NORJAK.

Edited by FLYJACK

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50 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm not completely buying this, but only because the FBI persistently names Cooper's race as Caucasian. I don't have to tell you that's what they said on the wanted posters since Day One until today. Wonder if any of the local TV news back east got some sound bites of Hahneman, along with video, when he was either going TO or leaving...court. They usually do this, and it would be interesting to see/hear. Also, I have heard nothing regarding a possible alibi (or the lack of one) for Hahneman 11/24/71. If he were from the Great Northwest, this might not be so important. But if you are going to have him traveling to Portland, Oregon all the way from the east coast around the date of the hijacking, you have to try and establish whether he had an alibi for the date in question. 

There are few still images of him leaving court, black and white.

I found a short video clip with voice of a guy in Vietnam that I believe is Hahneman.. I have matched images and several unique physical features including ears to get about 99% certainty.. I have tried everything but can't get to 100% confirmation.

Here is the kicker, the guy is a radio operator for Airlift Command which controlled all airdrops in South Vietnam from 1966..

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Establishment of an alibi, or the lack of one, is the FIRST thing cops try to do in a major investigation when they have a suspect in custody. (Besides gathering physical evidence, if it happens to be a murder or the like)

For example, let's say a liquor store is robbed. And a couple of hours later the cops spot someone who fits the description and they haul him in. He's wearing similar clothing, and they put him in a lineup. The witnesses say he's the guy.

But then the cops find out that at the time of the robbery, the poor slob was giving a talk on how to do tune-ups at the local high school's Auto Shop class, something he does once a month. Or he was at his regular job and at the time of the robbery he was seen working as he normally did. 

No matter what the local cops, or what witnesses may say at the lineup, they have to let the guy go. He might be a dead ringer for their suspect, but he isn't the guy they're looking for. This is why sketches and witness descriptions are more unreliable than they are correct. Alibis are a very basic piece of evidence. If you couldn't have been at the scene of the crime, and this can be absolutely confirmed...then you aren't the guy they're looking for. 

In the case of Hahneman, he might look like the suspect, (Cooper) and all that. But in order to move this much further, you have to somehow narrow down his whereabouts around 11/24/71. There is no Samantha Stephens twitching her nose and magically moving him from Pennsylvania to Portland. I think it is actually harder to pin it on Hahneman only because he lived so far from the Northwest USA. 

Have you tried submitting his pictures to any of the witnesses who might still speak? Like Bill Mitchell maybe? Some folks at Shutter's place know his address. They always want me to send pics of KC to him...but they refuse to give me the address. It's fear all the way, but I've never gotten any coop from them anyway. B) I found out there a bunch of Bill Mitchells in the phone records. And I'm not going to start calling them all. If they want me to do this...they will have to volunteer his address. But they won't. They're worried on what Bill might say. 

Lastpicvideo.jpg.bd5acda8d011c68f580a836e3bb54131.jpg

EDIT: I don't drop by Andrade's WordPress much, but I did today. I saw he is using tie criteria to dismiss suspects. Hmm...I'm generally okay with this approach, but with a caveat:

Despite Kaye's fine research on the tie, even TK cannot tell you whether Cooper was the original owner of the tie. Unfortunately, there is no chain of evidence on the tie. 

In other words, no one can say WHERE Cooper obtained the tie. Maybe he borrowed it, or picked it up from a Goodwill, a Salvation Army store...who knows? There is no way to link it over a length of time to Cooper, although we can all be pretty sure it WAS used by Cooper. In the lack of an evidence chain, it becomes shaky criteria although we should not discount it completely as evidence. 

I've always wondered why Cooper disposed of the tie so casually, (as if he knew it couldn't be linked to him) when he seemed reasonably cautious about disposing of other evidence. I dunno. However, if I were Cooper, I would have snatched off the tie clip. It was allegedly identified as belonging to one of the suspects. *Allegedly* being the key word here, since there are only two witnesses to this identification. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Said today by Shutter elsewhere:

Quote

'Eric Ulis holds a convention every year (CooperCon) and will probably have a lot of key people speaking at the event. this year was cancelled due to Covid...'

This is a deliberate untruth. Shutter is well aware that Eric Ulis dumped his CooperCon website, and hasn't posted to Shutter's site much ever since the airing of the TV show. 

You know folks...I don't mind if people put out baloney about me, but I have to object when they start doing it to perfectly nice Cooper fans. 

As far as is known Cooper fans....THIS is the only Cooper event going next year. It could change, but for now it's the only one announced or scheduled. 

Shutter: If you keep selling shares of Oscar Meyer to your own users, they will no longer trust you. B)

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4 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I do believe it's recently been stated that there are new owners of the Ariel store and they plan on putting on another party next year.

The Ariel Store, Cooper Parties and Conventions for 2021: 

You are not far off, Parrot. The statement was that they planned to turn it into a museum. Returning it into a store and tavern, and holding parties there like before...well, heck...if that were possible I wouldn't have organized what we're going to do next year. Trust me on this, Parrot. I would head to Ariel in a flash with everyone else. (I wasn't much for hobnobbing at the conventions, but the parties were a lot of fun.)

Back in 2016, while Bryan and I were working on the last party there, he and I made a complete inspection of the building for almost two hours. Attic, main tavern/store area, basement, and outside property. Frankly, it was not a pretty thing. 

Don't misunderstand me here. I LIKED Bryan, even though he went a little nuts on us after the last party. Shutter's thread is not that accurate. I was there. Shutter was not. I worked closely with Bryan for four months. I still don't understand how he went in ONE DAY from he and his then-girlfriend giving me hugs and thanking me over and over at the end of the party...and then the next day he trashes me at Facebook. Let's just say Bryan was 'mercurial' about the store. He had severe ups and downs. And there were personal issues going with him, none of which I will discuss because it's not polite to speak ill of the dead. But they existed. 

He was also allowing his dogs to live in the personal space (apartment) area behind the kitchen, and the carpets and wood floors back there were urine-soaked very badly, and rotted. The building itself was sagging badly, mainly because the poor thing was built on a severe slope and the foundation was showing its age. (Originally built in 1920's) The main floor in the store area was heavily sagged, almost a foot, in the area of where the pool table stood. When I say 'severe slope', the crawlspace went from two feet high (front of building) to about sixteen feet high at the very back. It was built basically on the side of a steep hill. 

The state and county refused to issue new licenses to do business either as a store or a tavern, and required somewhere around $100,000-$150,000 in repairs. They wanted new bathroom facilities with provision for the handicapped. An all new kitchen, new floors, new roof, foundation repairs...it was a big-ass list and Bryan showed it to me. But the tax value on the property was barely $100,000 according to the records. Bryan wanted to get a loan, but told me his credit was bad. (I didn't ask why) I tell you these things not to bad-mouth the store, or even Bryan, but to show you the current situation down there. 

But even with all THAT...a museum was still possible. You can open a museum in your own house if you want just using a business license and some basic insurance. That's why Bryan wanted to go that route. You could put side rails in a couple of remodeled bathrooms and there you go. You're not serving food, selling groceries, or serving liquor. So the requirements are far less. This is probably why the new owners would go that route. The museum, I mean. Then they could just fix up the living areas a bit at a time as they chose. Or not live there at all. Who knows?

When Bryan and I did the last party, we kind of went around the county rules. People were mostly outside at tables where the stage now sits. They were allowed to use the bathrooms and look around inside the place. It was cheating, but it was better than making people pee out in the woods. B)

You could probably do that again, but the reason you couldn't do it November is because of the wet weather that time of year. That's why we held it in August, when the weather was dry and hot. 

The new owners, as far as I know, have said nothing about a party. Museum yes. Party NO. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me. 

Now....IF....(and I mean IF)...both the owners of the store and the general Cooperland community would be in support of AB of Seattle hosting another OUTDOOR party down in Ariel, I already know how to pull that off. But I'm not changing our current plan unless BOTH the owners of the property AND Cooperland show full support for such a thing. No more backbiting, no more nasty posts about our efforts at Shutter's place...NONE of that again. I won't have it. 

As it is, our current plan is working well, considering it is still six months out and people have other things on their minds besides some party next summer. Like Christmas, or where they will get the Covid vaccine for they and their families when it becomes available. And as time goes by and more people sign up at the Adventure Books page for the June event....the LESS likely it is I will suddenly change things just to invest all that money in an Ariel party. As of today, we have 28 absolutely confirmed people chomping at the bit to go, and it isn't even the first of the year yet. (About another 50 are signed up for the email updates, but aren't sure they will go yet.) I fully expect we will fill all the 'legal' (75 maximum people) slots, and then we will have a lot of 'spillovers' camping a short distance from the main party site. We could get a few hundred people, and now I have to go out come spring and scout up in the Olympics again to see if I can lock down a suitable spot. I have a few in mind, but I NEVER in my wildest Cooper dreams expected we would get so many people on the list so LONG before the event, and before Christmas. If it keeps going like this after January, it will be too late for me to suddenly change the venue to Ariel. 

If you guys WANT a party in Ariel with the things we're doing, the press stuff, the generous prizes, and the food....you will have to get organized and quickly to coordinate with us...otherwise we do our own thing. Greg the Techie Guy is against going to Ariel because he doesn't trust Cooperland, you know. He will do it if I ask him to, but he's not exactly thrilled about the idea. He also says we could do it only for a single day, since we obviously can't camp two hundred people on the Ariel property. You see the problem we have here, Parrot....we already committed to something bigger than a single day at Ariel. I am open to suggestions....but so far not a single one of you in Cooperland that I know personally, or from the internet...(with two exceptions)...has even bothered signing up at the Party Page for the email updates, or to request anything from us regarding the party. Almost everything has come from the public. 

I get the idea it will be the same thing as when we went to Ariel in 2016. We would put up all these things as we did last time...and people will STILL talk bad about us. (If we moved our current planned party to Ariel instead.) 

Quote

"Trust is a hard thing to come by these days..."
Kurt Russell, The Thing

In any case, IF the new owners somehow manage to toss a Cooper party in November on their own, sure...I would drop in. OUR event is scheduled for June right now. (Depends on weather and availability of the vaccine) So there is no conflict there. Maybe it will end up where AB does our thing, and the Ariel store owners do theirs...and that's probably the best idea because there would be two Cooper events next year. In fact, if you guys wanted a Cooper party down in Ariel next November, you should be contacting the new owners NOW about such a thing, and how you would support it. Our thing in the Olympics would not be in competition with that, since ours is planned for summer, not in November. 

Did you guys ever hear anything from EU? From the posts at his convention website, it looks like he gave up the website about a year ago. The posts are dated to last December. If EU does NOT plan to host another convention, then my suggestion is that Bruce Smith be appointed to organize one for 2021. He's the only person who makes sense, because he lives in Washington state already, and has the connections to do it. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins
Heavily edited. This is the final version.

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UPDATE: 

Oh, brother....Shutter must hang on every post I make here at Dropzone LOL. Greg emailed me and sent me a screenshot of some comments Shutter made (couldn't have been more than minutes) after I made the last post above. 

Get a life, man. How am I supposed to know EU has a 'main' website? Well...my thought is that EU probably WILL do another convention for 2021 then. I never said that was a bad thing, you know. 

Shutter is right about one thing. Changing the plan for the June party now, and seeing if it's possible to hold it in Ariel isn't realistic. Everyone on our list has already been told the Cooper Party will run from a Friday morning until that Sunday morning, and yes....that would be impossible in Ariel. I tossed that suggestion out there on general principles and nothing else. I kind of knew it wasn't realistic. I didn't think Shutter would jump in minutes later and say he was 'contacting the owners of the Ariel Store' regarding that offer. Since you enjoy addressing me by name over at the website you banned me from, I will address you here personally as well. Have you ever seen the Twilight Zone episode titled, 'Four O'Clock'? You kind of remind me of Oliver Crangle. B) I couldn't believe you sticking your unwelcome nose into my California moving plans. Ever considered that Covid-19 might have delayed things a bit? Of course not. But then we know what you think about all that. It's all a left wing plot, and so and so actually won the election, right? (*yawns*) We have you pegged to a virtual 'T' my friend. 

So I take back any offer I may have made to do that (move party to Ariel if people wanted that) and we stick with the plan we have now. Seems to be working just fine so far. 

I think the thing that REALLY pisses off Shutter is that he can't do anything about it. He will tell you he 'doesn't care,' but he sure jumped on that post quick, didn't he? There is no one to go to with his emails and phone calls regarding the June party, unless he contacts Adventure Books, and we're not interested in whatever he has to say anyway.

We only deal with NICE people these days. 

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Everybody has ignored the olive, swarthy, Latin/Mexican description, that eliminates virtually all the prominent suspects, there is also the lips.. 

Lips were thin and the lower lip sort of protruded.. (matches Hahneman)

Cooper sketch artist,

Stew’s described Cooper as….    

Roy Rose... "middled aged person dressed in a suit, with a dark complexion and sort of a protruding lower lip, the rest of his face was rather nondescript, nothing unusual about it." 

 

initial description,, and thin lips..

just noticed,, sagging cheeks

 

cooperinitialdesc.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

But isn't that pretty much the same as a sun tan?????^.^

I'm not sure how come people put sooo much credence into witness descriptions that were taken from people who mostly saw Cooper sitting down, under stressful conditions, tired from a long flight and now 'this,' (stews) and where the perp was not seen under normal conditions anyway. (In other words, if you stand next to somebody at a bus stop, you will get a much better picture of them then dealing with them inside an aircraft. 

Here's an example:  I was on a flight from Seattle to San Diego some years ago. Up in First Class, former Major League Baseball player for the Seattle Mariners, Bret Boone, was up there with his family. I knew this guy fairly well, since I was a Mariners fan. 

He gets up a few times during the flight, and even comes back into steerage (LOL) to talk to a few people and shake hands, etc. I would have sworn he was at least six feet or more tall easily. I figured him for about six feet two in height no problem. Of course, the ceiling of a passenger jet can be deceptive. It's not ten feet tall like a ceiling in your house, or out in the open either. I compare this effect to when movies try to show someone as a giant, or larger than normal, by shrinking the room they are in. It's a pretty good effect and has been used in many TV shows and movies. It can fool you a bit. 

So...the plane finally lands in San Diego and everybody goes to the luggage carousel. I accidentally bump into Mr Boone while getting my bag. To my surprise, there in the terminal...I see he is actually SHORTER than I am. I am 5' 11 1/2". He was at least an inch and a half shorter than I was, but a lot beefier of course. I was really surprised. (Boone is actually five/ten) 

All three stews on Flight 305 gave different facial combinations from the FBI's Facial Identification Catalog. This is no surprise to me. Witness Bill Mitchell pegged Cooper's height as 'no more than five nine,' while stew Alice Hancock thought he was over six feet. These witnesses were all over the place. The sketch is not a photograph. It is a morph created from the memories of different individuals. The sketch of the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway, was the same thing...and even the detectives who questioned him in their own offices at the Green River Task Force didn't recognize him from the sketches and wanted poster they had plastered to their own walls. And remember...this office ONLY existed to catch the Green River Killer. It had no other purpose. 

The moral is this:  Don't depend on witness descriptions completely. They are useful, yes. They are a good guide, yes. 

They aren't photographs. 

In Other News: The power went out here from 10AM to 8PM, so this gave me a chance to test out the new dual-fuel (propane or gasoline) generator we bought for next summer's Cooper Party. I rigged it up and got all the essentials going again. Ran like a champ, and fairly quiet for a generator, although I was worried the neighbors would still bitch and whine LOL. I ran it on propane. So in this ten hour period, it went through just under a full propane tank, which I thought was pretty good, plus no annoying gas fumes. (Standard five gallon tank) That's better than running it on gasoline, which would have burned through five gallons easily and a bit more. The only drawback with propane is you get a little less electric output, maybe 250 watts less, but the ease of use and better fuel efficiency is a good tradeoff. (No pouring gas, etc.) And it's easier to store propane than flammable gasoline. I went to the WalMart and picked up two more propane tanks, giving us a total of four tanks, and I will probably do two more before the party. That should provide about 60 hours of power over two days and two nights. Imagine trying to haul so many gas cans to do the same thing. No way...and WAY dangerous. 

Funny Thing:  I worried about the mild noise level from the generator, right? So I switch it off after the power comes back on. And I hear two or three other generators going in the neighborhood..B)

I highly recommend the unit below. Picked up for $515 on sale at Amazon, you can find it HERE. (Little higher now, but still a great deal for what you get.) Will do 120/240 volt, has two AC outlets plus the 240 outlet, a 12-volt outlet, a voltmeter, electric and pull start, and is quieter than any other generator I've owned before. Comes with high-quality propane connector and valve, and some special plugs for different wiring to your house. (In case you have an electrician hook it up as a permanent backup generator.) 

Passed the test. Ready to go for June. The pictures and my comments may not seem Cooper-related, but when folks show up to the party, I want them to feel confident we can power all the lights and devices no problem. I plan to build a sound suppression box for it soon, and we will be setting it up 200 feet from the main campsite. You won't even be able to hear the thing. 

generator.jpg.3d592bf38f6d14e46fa737945e95883b.jpg

ABOVE: The reference to 'this should cost $1,000' is a bit of a stretch. I sent this image to Gayla to convince her we should buy it for the Cooper Party. Actually, the normal retail on these is closer to eight bills, not a thousand. Yeah...I exaggerated it a bit. So what? At $515 and free shipping it was a screaming deal and just what we needed.

GenSpec1.jpg.08282968ce021fdfd6a05903685e04ee.jpg

GenSpec2.jpg.6eef318f8b5dfbc3af3cb5d15c0520fd.jpg

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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31 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm not sure how come people put sooo much credence into witness descriptions that were taken from people who mostly saw Cooper sitting down, under stressful conditions, tired from a long flight and now 'this,' (stews) and where the perp was not seen under normal conditions anyway. (In other words, if you stand next to somebody at a bus stop, you will get a much better picture of them then dealing with them inside an aircraft. 

 

Does a sun tan look different if someone is standing?

The idea that a physical description is less accurate because a person is inside an aircraft is ludicrous. Really.

I hate airplanes, I really do. I'm a nervous wreck the whole time I'm on one. But because my job requires me to travel, sometimes I have to fly. With the onset of Covid, we've been given a little more freedom to decide how we travel. I recently made the drive from Tennessee to Idaho, not once but twice, in a three week period because I didn't want to fly. It sucked, but it beat flying.

That said, my judgement is just as good on a plane as it is anywhere. A few years ago I had to fly to Canada (which is the worst place I ever have to go) and the lady that sat beside me on the plane was....nice.

Let's just say that she was a nice looking lady and she had a very nice tan. I won't lie...many things went through my mind, but not a single time did I think that this lady was Latin, Mexican, Swarthy or Olive. She was tanned. There's a difference and it isn't hard to differentiate. Trust me. 

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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33 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Does a sun tan look different if someone is standing?

The idea that a physical description is less accurate because a person is inside an aircraft is ludicrous. Really.

I hate airplanes, I really do. I'm a nervous wreck the whole time I'm on one. But because my job requires me to travel, sometime I have to fly. With the onset of Covid, we've been given a little more freedom to decide how we travel. I recently made the drive from Tennessee to Idaho, not once but twice, in a three week period because I didn't want to fly. It sucked, but it beat flying.

That said, my judgement is just as good on a plane as it is anywhere. A few years ago I had to fly to Canada (which is the worst place I ever have to go) and the lady that sat beside me on the plane was....nice.

Let's just say that she was a nice looking lady and she had a very nice tan. I won't lie...many things went through my mind, but not a single time did I think that this lady was Latin, Mexican, Swarthy or Olive. She was tanned. There's a difference and it isn't hard to differentiate. 

I only gave you my personal experience, and what I saw for myself. And what came from the witnesses. If the FBI truly believed that Cooper was of Hispanic, Latin, Mexican, or whatever you choose to call it...

Then why in the heck did they investigate SO MANY Johnny Whitebread guys? According to you and Flyjack, they should have written off every guy like that. But they didn't. 

Look...no one will ever agree on the accuracy of the witness descriptions. It will never happen. Why should it? Even the witnesses were not in agreement. Calling someone 'the best suspect for Cooper' simply based on the known descriptions is downright foolish. The hard truth is that the only way Cooper will EVER be identified is if Tina Mucklow, or possibly Flo Schaffner finally gets a solid set of pictures of a suspect, or a video where the suspect speaks on the video...and they say...."THAT'S him. THAT'S the guy." It's the only way it will ever happen.

(EDIT: Or...if absolutely irrefutable evidence emerges that lays the hijacking at a suspect's door and this evidence is far beyond any reasonable doubt. Those are the two main ways. DNA would be a very distant third, mainly because there is very little DNA evidence in the Cooper case, and the FBI hasn't released their partial DNA profile data.)

I sympathize with Flyjack on his efforts with Hahneman. But so far he can't establish either an alibi, (or the lack of one) for Hahneman, or produce even a single witness. Until he gets those things, Hahneman is no better a suspect than Kenny Christiansen, McCoy, or anyone else. 

However...Hahneman IS a better suspect than Walter Reca. But then so is my cat... ^_^

CocoChristmasgen2.jpg.13ba129fbc3bffa7b5bd026727f0a2aa.jpg

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I only gave you my personal experience, and what I saw for myself. And what came from the witnesses. If the FBI truly believed that Cooper was of Hispanic, Latin, Mexican, or whatever you choose to call it...

Then why in the heck did they investigate SO MANY Johnny Whitebread guys? According to you and Flyjack, they should have written off every guy like that. But they didn't. 

Look...no one will ever agree on the accuracy of the witness descriptions. It will never happen. Why should it? Even the witnesses were not in agreement. Calling someone 'the best suspect for Cooper' simply based on the known descriptions is downright foolish. The hard truth is that the only way Cooper will EVER be identified is if Tina Mucklow, or possibly Flo Schaffner finally gets a solid set of pictures of a suspect, or a video where the suspect speaks on the video...and they say...."THAT'S him. THAT'S the guy." It's the only way it will ever happen.

(EDIT: Or...if absolutely irrefutable evidence emerges that lays the hijacking at a suspect's door and this evidence is far beyond any reasonable doubt. Those are the two main ways. DNA would be a very distant third, mainly because there is very little DNA evidence in the Cooper case, and the FBI hasn't released their partial DNA profile data.)

I sympathize with Flyjack on his efforts with Hahneman. But so far he can't establish either an alibi, (or the lack of one) for Hahneman, or produce even a single witness. Until he gets those things, Hahneman is no better a suspect than Kenny Christiansen, McCoy, or anyone else. 

However...Hahneman IS a better suspect than Walter Reca. But then so is my cat... ^_^

The FBI is still looking for cigarette butts that they destroyed in Reno.. all those whitebread suspects were eliminated. The second sketch "B" was done in colour to reflect the complexion and other slight adjustment.. Sketch "B" is the closest to Cooper, "A" was poor. That sketch "A" out there for a year was misleading and imprinted a poor image on investigators, witnesses and the public.

Larry Carr said that they would look at the totality of evidence for a suspect, if one element was weak but others strong they didn't eliminate automatically. McCoy became compelling for many because he had some strong elements but he had some very weak ones..

Nearly all the witnesses agreed Cooper was olive, swarthy, Latin/Mexican etc.. in both complexion and APPEARANCE..  none said he had a tan, (in late November).

For Hahenman, no witness said tan.. his UNSUB sketch was a resemblance, not perfect. It doesn't even look like at all like some of his pics. His height was described by witnesses from 5' 8" - 6' like Cooper. 

At this time, almost 50 years later I doubt a witness could ID with anywhere close to 100% certainty. You could probably get a NO to a maybe. The FBI said the witness memories were fading back in the mid 70's. I think back to profs I had in University and I doubt I could ID them in pics, no way near 100%.. and I knew them for an entire semester. For Hahneman, a witness actually ID'd the wrong guy from pics...

IMO, the only way to get to 100% is with DNA.. and that is out of our control.

The best we can get to is a "public" solution.. that may induce an attempt at DNA..

and Hahneman matches Cooper better than any high profile suspect by a long long shot.. He just ticks far more boxes.

I don't recall KC hijacking a 727 for ransom wearing a dark suit, overcoat, white shirt and skinny tie, brown shoes and sunglasses, threatening to blow up the plane with a briefcase bomb then jumping out intentionally at night over a jungle with a military chute..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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