DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, georger said:

and for the same reasons he planned to bail there which probably means he had an escape plan involving the same area ...

Nope,

No evidence for that. Evidence is against.

He changed his plan.. then he was delayed and never gave any location instructions..

He landed in an unplanned area and would not have had an escape plan for it.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Cooper sat on the right to have the bomb on his right controlled by his dominant hand.

He carried the case flat with his right hand,, You carry a case with your dominant hand.

It isn't 100% that he was right handed but all evidence supports it, ZERO evidence supports left handed.

[FLYJACK 654]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:26 PM, FLYJACK said:

I can't explain the extra space between the marks before 20:05 or the ones too short about Portland south.. 

but there are two things...

If you take the point 14 DME SEA (19:40) and 23 DME PDX,, 

The distance measured along the path is 137 NM

At 20:22 it is 42 min.  137/42 = 3.262 * 60 = 195.72 NMH average ground speed

At 20:18 it is 38 min. 137/38 = 3.61 * 60 = 216.6 NMH average ground speed

Air speed after takeoff was about 170 and ground was about 205.. a 35 headwind,, that is another story.

We know plane slowed for Cooper's jump..

From 20:05 to 20:15 the timing marks based on distance are very accurate to the minute, perhaps that section was requested.

2005 - 2015 = 31.42 NM

31.42 NM / 10 = 3.142

3.142 * 60 = 188.52 ground speed

Cooper's jump speed was noted and tested as about 150 air speed.. 

188.52 ground was about 153 air speed. less 35 wind

This is consistent.

 

Going back to the 20:18 vs 20:22 time at DME 23 PDX..

For 20:18 the average ground speed of 216.6 is too high especially considering they slowed the plane down.. that means they would have to travel faster than 216.6 initially.

However,, an average ground speed of 195.72 is right in the sweet spot. It is an combination of the initial 205 speed and the 188.52. They slowed the plane to 188.52 ground or about 153 air speed, matching Cooper's exit speed.

The 20:18 time requires the plane to be going far too fast (20 k faster) to cover that distance. 

20:22 fits. Any slight variation in wind along the path or slight key in delay of times does not compensate for the 20 k excess speed at 20:18, it is the outlier.

R99 has not responded so I guess he realized he was wrong.

I checked with a friend who is a current commercial pilot and he said it is correct, the only additional comment was the curvature of the earth but that is insignificant over short distances.

What does it indicate,,

For the 10 minutes between 20:05 and 20:15, 

The ground speed was 188.52 nm, the plane slowed down to about 150 k airspeed.

If we assume the average speed in this section was slightly higher at 155 that means Cooper jumped into a 33 knot South wind...  

Cooper's wind drift would have been about 33 knots toward North at exit,, the variables are time under canopy and wind at lower altitudes.

Spangler calculated a drift zone using wind estimates and without transcripts..

IMO, this data indicates Cooper's drift was more Northerly up to 5 nm..

Edited December 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[JAGdb 71]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper sat on the right to have the bomb on his right controlled by his dominant hand.

He carried the case flat with his right hand,, You carry a case with your dominant hand.

It isn't 100% that he was right handed but all evidence supports it, ZERO evidence supports left handed.

I agree with this in terms of using it as an educated guess.

In the same sort of tea leaf reading, IF Cooper truly didn't know that flying with flaps and gear down would prevent the plane from reaching Mexico, then he almost certainly was NOT a pilot i.e. take pilot off the list.

It's not 100% definitive, but it is a reasonable conclusion. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

I agree with this in terms of using it as an educated guess.

In the same sort of tea leaf reading, IF Cooper truly didn't know that flying with flaps and gear down would prevent the plane from reaching Mexico, then he almost certainly was NOT a pilot i.e. take pilot off the list.

It's not 100% definitive, but it is a reasonable conclusion. 

Yes, it isn't 100% proof but the totality of evidence suggests right handed.

Also. cig stains on right hand,, 85% are right handed..

Point is there is no evidence to indicate left handed.

 

and Cooper must have believed the plane could reach Mexico otherwise he would not have made a demand he knew was impossible and would have been rejected.. 

therefore, it is likely a comms error via Tina relaying the message to the crew.

Perhaps he initially wanted flaps down gear down later when stairs were lowered inflight. That changed when Reno was in play...

 

This is the best info for Cooper's initial demand.. The crew's comm's..

First, Cooper wanted airstairs lowered inflight. Initial demand.

and the the gear down flaps down is vague... did he want to fly all the way dirty or later when stairs are lowered..

The crew/Tina assumed fly dirty from take off... but he may not have meant that.

That assumption, if wrong would mean Cooper's demand to fly to Mexico was achievable and it makes sense.

Remember, the demands went through Tina to the crew.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

R99 has not responded so I guess he realized he was wrong.

I checked with a friend who is a current commercial pilot and he said it is correct, the only additional comment was the curvature of the earth but that is insignificant over short distances.

What does it indicate,,

For the 10 minutes between 20:05 and 20:15, 

The ground speed was 188.52 nm, the plane slowed down to about 150 k airspeed.

If we assume the average speed in this section was slightly higher at 155 that means Cooper jumped into a 33 knot South wind...  

Cooper's wind drift would have been about 33 knots toward North at exit,, the variables are time under canopy and wind at lower altitudes.

Spangler calculated a drift zone using wind estimates and without transcripts..

IMO, this data indicates Cooper's drift was more Northerly up to 5 nm..

FlyJack,

Your calculations are nonsense.  Even the numbers you quote from Rataczak are wrong and your commercial pilot apparently never figured out how to use a flight computer.

Since 2009 I have explained this any number of times but will do it again, AND FOR THE LAST TIME, just as soon as I have a few hours free.  I will also have an upcoming post on the overall flight path.

So in the meantime, I suggest that you read the December 3rd post on Dr. Robert Edwards blog and get a copy of the FAA's free publication on aircraft navigation and related subjects.

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, it isn't 100% proof but the totality of evidence suggests right handed.

Also. cig stains on right hand,, 85% are right handed..

Point is there is no evidence to indicate left handed.

 

and Cooper must have believed the plane could reach Mexico otherwise he would not have made a demand he knew was impossible and would have been rejected.. 

therefore, it is likely a comms error via Tina relaying the message to the crew.

Perhaps he initially wanted flaps down gear down later when stairs were lowered inflight. That changed when Reno was in play...

 

This is the best info for Cooper's initial demand.. The crew's comm's..

First, Cooper wanted airstairs lowered inflight. Initial demand.

and the the gear down flaps down is vague... did he want to fly all the way dirty or later when stairs are lowered..

The crew/Tina assumed fly dirty from take off... but he may not have meant that.

That assumption, if wrong would mean Cooper's demand to fly to Mexico was achievable and it makes sense.

Remember, the demands went through Tina to the crew.

 

FlyJack, 

Cooper wanted the aft stairs down during the takeoff.  This and his argument with Rataczak are covered in numerous places.

[FLYJACK 654]

24 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack,

Your calculations are nonsense.  Even the numbers you quote from Rataczak are wrong and your commercial pilot apparently never figured out how to use a flight computer.

Since 2009 I have explained this any number of times but will do it again, AND FOR THE LAST TIME, just as soon as I have a few hours free.  I will also have an upcoming post on the overall flight path.

So in the meantime, I suggest that you read the December 3rd post on Dr. Robert Edwards blog and get a copy of the FAA's free publication on aircraft navigation and related subjects.

You already said it was all wrong but can't point to a single error.

Why, because it contradicts your WFP theory..

We can calculate the NM travelled along the path.

We can calculate ground speed based on times.

We can compare ground speed to known reported airspeed.

We can derive the average wind speed.

 

and we can determine that the plane can't be at 23 DME PDX at/before 20:18, it would have to have travelled too fast.

Edited December 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

11 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, 

Cooper wanted the aft stairs down during the takeoff.  This and his argument with Rataczak are covered in numerous places.

This is a myth that has gone on forever.. and created false theories.

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight.. later, when Reno was in play during negotiations airstairs lowered on takeoff came up.

I have gone over this many times, it is 100% proven in documents that his initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight.

It says so right in the crew transcript of his initial demands you just read above and claimed the contrary.

"AFT STAIRS TO BE LWD AFTER TKOFF"

[Robert99 37]

16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This is a myth that has gone on forever.. and created false theories.

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight.. later, when Reno was in play during negotiations airstairs lowered on takeoff came up.

I have gone over this many times, it is 100% proven in documents that his initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight.

It says so right in the crew transcript of his initial demands you just read above and claimed the contrary.

"AFT STAIRS TO BE LWD AFTER TKOFF"

FlyJack,

Your post above was sent over the ARINC teletype system about 75 minutes before the airliner took off.  After giving in to Rataczak, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the airliner could take off with the aft stairs down despite Rataczak's claims otherwise.

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack,

Your post above was sent over the ARINC teletype system about 75 minutes before the airliner took off.  After giving in to Rataczak, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the airliner could take off with the aft stairs down despite Rataczak's claims otherwise.

No it wasn't, it was the very first transmission of the demands.. later they discuss airstairs lowered for takeoff. Look for yourself. 

The Harrison notes confirm it, the FBI files confirm that Cooper initially demanded lowered in flight.. then changed to lowered on takeoff when Reno was negotiated. 

It is indisputable and a big deal that most people continue to get wrong.

 

[CooperNWO305 146]

15 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No it wasn't, it was the very first transmission of the demands.. later they discuss airstairs lowered for takeoff. Look for yourself. 

The Harrison notes confirm it, the FBI files confirm that Cooper initially demanded lowered in flight.. then changed to lowered on takeoff when Reno was negotiated. 

It is indisputable and a big deal that most people continue to get wrong.

 

If you’re going off what is in the record, then I 100% agree this is what was in there. Three times.

[FLYJACK 654]

I find it a bit disturbing that long time researchers still can't acknowledge basic evidence..

If you check the comm sequence, it is clear.

Cooper initially demanded airstairs lowered inflight.

then when Reno was in play lowered on takeoff.

then he finally accepted lowered inflight.

This FBI document confirms it. There is no wiggle room.

 

 

[CooperNWO305 146]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I find it a bit disturbing that long time researchers still can't acknowledge basic evidence..

If you check the comm sequence, it is clear.

Cooper initially demanded airstairs lowered inflight.

then when Reno was in play lowered on takeoff.

then he finally accepted lowered inflight.

This FBI document confirms it. There is no wiggle room.

 

 

We have open and extended, two different things. I guess locked too. I’d want them open but not necessarily locked. Flying at 10,000 feet would still make it possible to extend and lock in flight. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

We have open and extended, two different things. I guess locked too. I’d want them open but not necessarily locked. Flying at 10,000 feet would still make it possible to extend and lock in flight. 

Aft entry door.. "open" is the rear bulkhead door..

I think that is part of the confusion over the years,, the rear door vs airstairs.

[Chaucer 103]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:48 PM, Robert99 said:

FlyJack,

Your post above was sent over the ARINC teletype system about 75 minutes before the airliner took off.  After giving in to Rataczak, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the airliner could take off with the aft stairs down despite Rataczak's claims otherwise.

Wrong. This transmission was not done over any ARINC frequency. It was done over an NWA company frequency and sent over an NWA company teletype. I have confirmed this through conversations with both ARINC personnel and NWA radio operators from that time period.

While ARINC did become involved in the communications of NWA 305 and ground personnel, that did not occur until after 8:19 PST.

Please stop propagating inaccurate information. It's almost as bad as Cub's sketches. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Timeline..

FIRST Transmission of demands.

6:21 PST (before)

Pass loading door open and airstairs lowered after takeoff

 

 

6:15 PST  (18:15 CST )

Aft door open and aft stairs lowered inflight. CONFIRMS ABOVE TRANSMISSION

 

 

6:38 PST (before)

Wants girl to manipulate stairs after airborne

Have tried to tell him (how) to operate stairs to lowered after takeoff

Trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff

(The crew may have initiated stairs lowered on takeoff as they were trying to get Tina off the plane, it isn't clear)

 

6:35 PST  

Wants one girl to lower stairs. (Cooper still wants lowered in flight)

Soderlind wants stairs locked at takeoff.. responding to above crew suggestion to partially lower/lock,

 

6:59 PST (before)

Cooper still wants Tina to stay.

Insists stairs in 1 deg.. (That may mean airstairs unlocked OR they mixed up AFT DOOR open with AFT STAIRS open)

Still wants girl to initiate lowering of stairs. This doesn't make sense if Cooper wanted the stairs down on takeoff.

 

 

7:05 (before)

Advised Cooper.. can't takeoff with door down

 

7:22 (before)

Has agreed to takeoff with stairs in full upright position.

 

100% fact.. Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight.. 

The crew first suggested stairs partially open to get Tina off the plane.

It isn't clear what Cooper actually wanted, either Cooper agreed to have the stairs partially open for takeoff then the crew had to convince him have them closed OR the communication between Cooper and the crew via Tina conflated the "open aft door" and the "open aft stairs".. 

The crew may have misunderstood Cooper's demands passing through TIna.. perhaps Cooper was insisting the aft (bulkhead) door open and the message going through Tina was received as aft stair open.  it isn't clear as we only have what the crew believed. But, this is supported by the fact that he still wanted Tina to lower the stairs and that doesn't make sense if Cooper wanted the stairs down on takeoff.

[Cola 26]

On 12/16/2023 at 6:49 PM, FLYJACK said:

100% fact.. Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight.. 

The crew first suggested stairs partially open to get Tina off the plane.

It isn't clear what Cooper actually wanted, either Cooper agreed to have the stairs partially open for takeoff then the crew had to convince him have them closed OR the communication between Cooper and the crew via Tina conflated the "open aft door" and the "open aft stairs".. 

The crew may have misunderstood Cooper's demands passing through TIna.. perhaps Cooper was insisting the aft (bulkhead) door open and the message going through Tina was received as aft stair open.  it isn't clear as we only have what the crew believed. But, this is supported by the fact that he still wanted Tina to lower the stairs and that doesn't make sense if Cooper wanted the stairs down on takeoff.

 

First post in the Vortex. I have been holding out for years, waiting for enough exposure to the case to hopefully be additive here.  

FlyJack - I have always admired how you reference your assertions. I'm a big fan and grateful that you have always tried to keep the facts in focus… You and a number of others have really pushed my thinking on this case over the years. I very much appreciate everyone's contributions, the good and the bad.

On this one, I think Cooper's initial intent was to have the airstairs lowered after takeoff.

As you have referenced:

1)    This was the initial instruction relayed by the crew.

2)   G.H confirmed this in specifically writing down “aft stairs lowered in inflight”.

I think further support of Cooper’s intent for having airstairs lowered after take off could be implied by the following:

Cooper had presumed the airstairs were lowered by the flight crew. Having that presumption, I think Cooper had  given Florence, Alice and Tina the impression that Tina would be leaving the plane before take-off. Cooper would have no further need for Tina after takeoff if he was relying on the Cabin to operate the stairs for him.

Florence is noted as asking Cooper the plural of can the “stewardesses” exit the plane.

Florence told Tina “he said we can go” This leads me to believe Tina was included in Flo's request for the stewardesses to exit.

Tina anticipated exiting and assured Flo that she would be with them in a second.

After Flo and Alice reached the car, Al Lee further radioed the cockpit and said Cooper didn’t really care if Tina got off or not. This is what Flo and Alice were telling Al Lee at that time.  Flo and Alice expected Tina to join them for the ride out of there.

Summation - I think Cooper initially intended to have airstairs lowered inflight. On the ground he may have decided to have them lowered then out of precaution or he may have been responding to the Crews offer to have them partially open.

 

Ref- Tina Interview 2 Pg. DB-26977

Ref- Tina Interview 2 Pg. DB-26977

Ref- 5:59-6:59 Reel -305 – Flight transcripts Pg.178

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Cola

[FLYJACK 654]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:28 AM, FLYJACK said:

I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

I posted about those ALMG5 particles a year ago,,,

It is Aluminum alloy 5019.. or Magnalium which is commonly Ti 95% Mg 5% but the ratio can vary.

 

https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/5019-AlMg5-3.3555-A95019-Aluminum

 

https://procure-net.com/product/aluminum-alloy-5019-wire-8/

 

Industries and Applications:

Beyond its raw strength and durability, the Aluminum Alloy 5019 Wire is also versatile, finding its application across several industries:

• Aerospace: Frequently used in aircraft structures, including frames, panels, connectors offering lightweight and durable solutions.
• Automotive: Ideally suited for automotive parts like body panels, chassis components, engine components, delivering high strength and corrosion resistance.
• Construction: Trusted in building projects such as building frames, scaffolding, roofing due to its ability to resist harsh conditions and maintain structural strength.
• Electrical: Utilized in electrical wiring in buildings, power transmission lines, electrical connectors thanks to its high conductivity and oxidation resistance.
• Marine: The wire's saltwater corrosion resistance makes it ideal for marine applications, including boat manufacturing and offshore construction.

 

 

 

also called..

 

Magnalium

 

https://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Magnalium

 

 

https://www.nanochemazone.com/product/magnalium-powder/

 

Description:

Magnalium Powder is widely used in aircrafts and automobile parts and is highly appreciated for its perfect results. It allows greater strength when added in small quantity along with greater corrosion resistance. Used in Fireworks applications for making flickering effects in aerial shots / crackling sound & shining sparks in sparklers / fountains//twinklers, Ferro alloys, Foundry flux, Ordnance, Refractory bricks, Welding electrodes applications etc.

Application:

Magnalium is an aluminium alloy with 5% magnesium and 95% aluminum.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

For decades the dominant narrative was that Cooper demanded airstairs down on takeoff,, that led to the reasonable conclusion that he wanted to jump ASAP.

But since Cooper's initial demand was actually airstairs lowered in flight..

 

That changes things.. and we can explore other theories.

Cooper never gave flight path instructions.. he may have intended to do that in the air.

Cooper didn't jump where he initially planned.. he likely intended to jump more South.

Cooper believed the plane could make Mexico.. he may have wanted the plane to fly gear down flaps down when the stairs were lowered inflight.

 

 

[Chaucer 103]

Aluminum alloy 5019 was not invented until 1972. 

Rather, the alloy found on the tie was likely 5082.

 

Also, for magnalium to be in powder form (for use in pyrotechnics for example)  it must have a magnesium content of 50% not 5%. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Aluminum alloy 5019 was not invented until 1972. 

Rather, the alloy found on the tie was likely 5082.

 

Also, for magnalium to be in powder form (for use in pyrotechnics for example)  it must have a magnesium content of 50% not 5%. 

That is jurisdictional registration not invention...  it can exist prior.

It says 5056A was redesignated 5019 (in 1972)

But the tie particles had Ni as the third element. The only one shown with Ni is 5283.. registered after Norjak. 

 

and that is not correct.. powdered magnalium can be in 5% Mg.. though it can range.

It is in the post.. Powdered magnalium Al 95 Mg 5

https://www.nanochemazone.com/product/magnalium-powder/

 

Magnalium is a general term for aluminum with magnesium..  the ratio can range but the most common is mg 5%..

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Try to find Al Mg 4.5-5% with trace Ni...  

It doesn't have to be a registered alloy..

Edited December 19, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 103]

5019 has too much manganese. The bottom limit is .10 Tom's was .03

The only alloy that matches Tom's is 5082. 

Also, Tom said to discount the nickel because there are nickel wires near the fragment and with this length of integration, it could be what Tom calls "reflections.

[FLYJACK 654]

28 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

5019 has too much manganese. The bottom limit is .10 Tom's was .03

The only alloy that matches Tom's is 5082. 

Also, Tom said to discount the nickel because there are nickel wires near the fragment and with this length of integration, it could be what Tom calls "reflections.

It doesn't fit any registered alloy perfectly...  at least the vast majority of particles I identified previously. The Mg was about 4.5% and trace elements varied but most contained Ni. 

My hunch is the source wasn't a registered alloy but I need to go back and check all the AlMg particles...