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DB Cooper

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A couple questions...

 

If the money ended up in the river and was deposited on the beach by the tides, wouldn't it originally be on the surface, before it was buried a bit by subsequent tides? Well, wasn't that area frequently visited by people/fishermen? Wouldn't somebody likely find the money before it got buried?

 

Also, didn't I read somewhere that the Ingrams tried to wash the money (physically wash, not launder) before calling the authorities? What would that do to the diatoms, how would that affect Kaye's research?

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Yes, they tried to wash the money in the sink. It didn't work. 

Smoke and Fire Report: It is very bad all over Washington state. A couple of air quality monitors down by the Columbia, east of Portland (White Salmon is one) are pegged out at the max of 500. 

Here in Auburn, which is about twenty miles south of Seattle, it is close to 300 which is pretty bad. Beijing for example, is running about 70, so you can imagine how bad it is here. I have two AC's running with filters on the outlet, and these AC's are set to recirculate, NOT to draw air in from outside. Also have two large HEPA air filter machines going that I picked up from Amazon a couple of years ago when this smoke stuff happened the first time. Pretty weird outside. Sky is a sick yellowish color and looks like rain is coming, but it isn't clouds but smoke out there. Inside our home I think the air is okay, but not quite like normal. 

In 2017 and 2018 it was also bad...and the first time these smoke events hit Seattle. Then in 2019 we got a break. Some people thought it was just a freak event, and that 2019 was the year we returned to normal. WRONG. Here we are in 2020 and it's the worst smoke event ever. I don't see it getting any better next year...the year after that...or the year after THAT. Personally, I believe we've reached what Al Gore calls the tipping point, at least on the prevalence of wildfires and their accompanying smoke...which I also think are semi-permanent for summer now. 

Mt Rainier National Park takes up a nice chunk of the map in Washington state. So far, the fires in California have consumed an area about TWELVE times larger than the park and continue to burn. It's hard to imagine. 

Here in Washington, if the numbers started maxing out everywhere, it's tough to say where people could actually GO to escape it. We're talking about all three west coast states with this problem. I would probably try camping out for a while near Carbon Lake, just outside the Mt Rainier park. Numbers at the Mud Mountain Dam have been in the green throughout all this. One thing I DO know about these smoke events is that the higher you get, the less the smoke is. I take a couple of trips to the San Diego/Oceanside area each year. On one of them, we were in the middle of a bad smoke event. I noticed from the plane that once we got above a few thousand feet, the sky was pretty clear but you could not see a single thing on the ground. Just a thick yellow blanket of crap. And meanwhile...the air gets worse because this heavy blanket of smoke also holds in other contaminants like car exhaust, emissions from manufacturing, etc. 

I went to the Fred Meyer's this morning and purposely goofed off in there for two hours...because their filtration system worked so well it was like breathing normal air. I moved all our cleaning jobs off to late next week, too. The heck with going out. 

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1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

A couple questions...

 

If the money ended up in the river and was deposited on the beach by the tides, wouldn't it originally be on the surface, before it was buried a bit by subsequent tides? Well, wasn't that area frequently visited by people/fishermen? Wouldn't somebody likely find the money before it got buried?

 

Also, didn't I read somewhere that the Ingrams tried to wash the money (physically wash, not launder) before calling the authorities? What would that do to the diatoms, how would that affect Kaye's research?

The money may not have been recognizable, looked like wood or garbage..

A local resident said his kids drove a 4wd over the spot...

The Ingram's added Clorox to the sink water but were mostly unsuccessful in separating individual bills. They got a few but the 3 packets ended up in 12 clumps.

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(edited)

I recently posted an article to Quora when I was sent the question:

'Which Murder Disturbs You The Most?'

I didn't even have to think twice about it. It still affects me on a personal level, even today. 

Trust me. It's worth a look.

Just goes to show that not EVERYTHING I do or think about is Cooper-related. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

The Hans Egger family owned the N property adjacent to the Fazio's from well before the hijacking to 2004.. Anderson bought it in 2004. I assume he was the "resident/user" prior to 2004, but not the legal owner.

 

The problem is the Fazio's commercial sand and gravel operation is an entirely different process from beach nourishment which had nothing to do with the property owner. There is a water level on the beach where the property actually ends and it is public.. The money spot was very close to the border of the properties and public beach line and it seems unlikely the Fazio's would place their commercial material right up to that border..

 

We need to find any and all "beach nourishment" records for the Egger property and Fazio's. 

My preliminary guess is there was "continuous" beach nourishment operations there. The Fazio Commercial dredging operations/permits are probably a red herring and took place South of the money find..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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20 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

A local resident said his kids drove a 4wd over the spot...

Might that account for 'fragments'?

 

21 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Yes, they tried to wash the money in the sink. It didn't work. 

 

20 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The Ingram's added Clorox to the sink water but were mostly unsuccessful in separating individual bills. They got a few but the 3 packets ended up in 12 clumps.

Still curious how that might have affected Kaye's analysis. Did he find Clorox? Are there diatoms in tap water?

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(edited)

Wrong Dave, Eric is full of it.

The funky "P" was already known to have been introduced in 1963. I have since pinned down the exact date in 1963.

The Remington manufacturer is easily found based on a 2 second google search of the RN number. That is a gimme.

What I am referring to is dating the tie by deciphering the patent numbers from the Cooper tie, the label was actually misaligned so the last number on the patent was missing from view.

Way back, I did a massive search for similar Pennys Towncraft Snapper ties.. I noticed they had different patent numbers for the Snapper..

Looking up the patents you can get a date range.. 

Later ties had different numbers and ties 1963 and before did not have the funky "P". So, we could narrow down the date.

I posted this ongoing process with pics and long before Eric claimed to have figured it out. I also mentioned it in posts many times.. I also emailed it to a bunch of Cooper people.

About a year and half after I posted this stuff Eric brags about deciphering the tie patents. 

I asked him where he got that from.. He said he did it himself.. RIGHT

Eric also bragged that he had been studying the case thoroughly for a long time so there is no way he didn't see my posts on it.. there are many posts referring to the tie patents and dating the tie to around 1965. Anybody reading Shutters forum back then would have seen my many posts on it.

To deflect, Eric has been calling me a troll and a liar trying to discredit me ever since. I point out facts that refute his nonsense theories and he either calls me names or ignores it..

So, he is a fraud. There is no way he didn't see my many posts about the tie patents over about a year and half and miraculously come up with it himself.

 

No serious Cooper sleuth believes his Sheridan nonsense, it is wall to wall conjecture layered upon speculation wrapped in guesses and sandwiched in ignorance.

If he wasn't running the CooperCon he'd be trashed. CooperCon bought him a level of immunity from criticism, probably the reason he does it.

Not debating Eric is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of integrity. I don't publicly debate people I don't respect and debating nonsense theories is akin to debating the existence of Bigfoot. You can't prove Bigfoot doesn't exist.

I actually prefer that Eric keeps pursuing his increasingly ridiculous metamorphosing theory... now that I have shown the money spot was reached by the river outside of the 72/74 floods Eric needs to conjure up another version to fit his narrative.

Lastly,, Eric has it wrong. It was not in 1963. He wants the tie to be 1963 to put Sheridan in possession. So, he made it up.

Eric will get mad again and call me names but he has been doing that ever since I caught him lying.

and I really don't care that Eric used it, I posted it for everyone. It is the lies and smears he started...

Enough of that nonsense, back to Cooper.

 

 

The tie dating isn't precise as we can only get a range. A patent application/grant doesn't tell you exactly when that part was made or actually used in manufacture. We also don't know how long the tie may have been in store inventory before being sold.

The earliest manufacture is early 1964 thru around the end of 1964.. but the tie could have been sold in 1965.. or a little later if inventory slow.. I use an estimate of 1965 +/- 6 months.

These are images I posted around Feb 2017.. I also mentioned it many many times in posts before Eric claimed it was his.

 

 

So, it would be a huge plus for a Cooper suspect environment to match the tie particles from around 1965 +/- and Hahneman matches it better than any suspect. 

 

The FBI went to a Pennys store and asked a manager about the tie and they said a few years old... So, the FBI went with that and assumed the tie was only a couple years old. It was actually about six years old.

Cooper tie on right.. examples of the different patents on other ties on the left.

clues-documents-and-evidence-about-the-case.jpeg.6770c6556584dfa825ac9341ea849d33.jpeg

 

The last "0" is cutoff the Cooper tie patent number label.

clues-documents-and-evidence-about-the-case.jpeg.4fc56552cd3d3ff230386029cd8d5449.jpeg

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Point of order...neither Dave or Eric post here...both of them lack the courage to do so. 

That's been known for a while. 

I'm going to give you some unwanted advice, Flyjack. Either start quoting them by link (allowed), or stop addressing them third-party at a site where not everyone knows what in the holy hell you are talking about, or whom you are referring to. We don't all hang out at the unnamed website where you keep arguing with the members there. It's kind of weird, you know. 

Either that, or come to the Everything D.B. Cooper Space at Quora, and reach a real audience with your stuff by signing up as a contributor. Those guys over there are a waste of time. Until they decide to check in at the Reality Hotel, it's no use doing second-party with them. B) No one is listening to them much anymore anyway, because they also associate themselves with negative junk...some of it from their biggest members. This has a habit of dragging the whole place down. 

And trust me on this: More people than you think are figuring it out. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Short version.. Eric is dishonest, frequently wrong and I don't publicly debate people I don't respect about their nonsense theories.

 

The IMPORTANT Cooper take away is the tie was made and likely sold after early 1964 into 1965.

Since the tie had 6-7 years worth of "environments" to collect all those particles and not the couple years the FBI claimed, then matching a suspect to an environment in that timeframe is a big deal.

EVERYONE is missing this..

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Short version.. Eric is dishonest, frequently wrong and I don't publicly debate people I don't respect about their nonsense theories.

 

The IMPORTANT Cooper take away is the tie was made and likely sold after early 1964 into 1965.

Since the tie had 6-7 years worth of "environments" to collect all those particles and not the couple years the FBI claimed, then matching a suspect to an environment in that timeframe is a big deal.

EVERYONE is missing this..

I will buy all that and swallow it with a big wooden spoon, except for two caveats:

1) Cooper was very careful to leave little, if any, evidence behind. Yet for some reason he casually discards the tie over a seat as if he wasn't worried about it. Why?

2) There is no chain of evidence on the tie. He could have borrowed it. He could have picked it up for a dime at a Goodwill store. No one knows the personal history of it. (Manufacturing history you seem to have established.) 

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31 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I will buy all that and swallow it with a big wooden spoon, except for two caveats:

1) Cooper was very careful to leave little, if any, evidence behind. Yet for some reason he casually discards the tie over a seat as if he wasn't worried about it. Why?

2) There is no chain of evidence on the tie. He could have borrowed it. He could have picked it up for a dime at a Goodwill store. No one knows the personal history of it. (Manufacturing history you seem to have established.) 

It is possible the tie wasn't his... anything is possible.

The Goodwill thing is a stretch for such a dirty cheapo tie. Can't see that, it was filthy.

I think he probably used the tie to wipe prints in the plane, based on the particle distribution clusters, but he left cigarettes possibly cups and magazines.. and the parachutes he handled. So, leaving the tie isn't really out of character.

Hahneman left a tie behind for his hijacking..

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

1) Cooper was very careful to leave little, if any, evidence behind. Yet for some reason he casually discards the tie over a seat as if he wasn't worried about it. Why?

2) There is no chain of evidence on the tie. He could have borrowed it. He could have picked it up for a dime at a Goodwill store. No one knows the personal history of it.

 

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The Goodwill thing is a stretch for such a dirty cheapo tie. Can't see that, it was filthy.

It's possible he did that on purpose, as a red herring.

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(edited)
7 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

 

It's possible he did that on purpose, as a red herring.

Why?  for what purpose.. 

 

How would it benefit him,,   pre DNA.. it took 40+ yrs to analyze the particles.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

In other Cooper news: 

Some of you know I was in negotiations throughout the month of August about renewal of my option with a couple of film production companies in the LA/Hollywood area. Unlike the other extensions to this option, concerning a movie based on the life of Ken Christiansen and the Cooper story, this time I told them I had some hesitations on signing a fourth renewal. I've come to a decision. 

I've decided NOT to sign another extension. I'm taking what I have already received and letting the rights to the KC story revert back to me. Some of you will be happy with that decision, others might be disappointed, but my decision is FINAL. There will be no Cooper movie for 2021 unless someone else does it. However, since it IS the 50th anniversary of the hijacking, I wouldn't be surprised if some other movie comes out of Hollywood next year on the subject. Have hope. 

There are a number of reasons I came to this decision, some of them private, but I will tell you a few that I don't mind sharing. 

  • I just spent the last three years writing my autobiography, Cooperland, and because some of the content is(was) covered under the confidentiality agreement I signed with the studios, especially in the later chapters, I could not release the book without violating the agreement. The later content concerns what I actually know about Kenny Christiansen as of, well..NOW...and the rights to that material was owned by the studios. Now all of that reverts back to me, and I am free to release the book as soon as it is ready. And I WANT to release it. I am doing a final edit on it, adding some additional material, and inserting more than 30 images into the book, many from my personal family collection. It will be released at wholesale trade rates in paperback, hardcover with dust jacket, and for the Amazon Kindle. 
     
  • The studios kept stalling me on a press release, which would free me from the confidentiality agreement, and frankly...I got tired of keeping all the secrets for the last three and a half years, without anyone else involved coming forward publicly. Sure, the checks were nice. But I got tired of not a whisper *officially* about the movie being in pre-production except by me. When some people told me they thought there WAS no movie in the works, (because I wasn't allowed to say much about it) I actually sympathized with these people. They had a point, and I never became really angry about it when they said that. I would have said the same things. I did finally release a two-minute promo video at YouTube about the movie, after removing the names of the studios and the people involved from the end of the video. I have since taken down that video from YouTube, along with another one I did on my own on the same subject. (The two-minute promo video was created not by me, but by the studios, who reluctantly allowed me to post it as long as I edited out their names from the ending.) 
     
  • I was not happy with the script. This was one of the biggest reasons I declined to extend the option. The studio paid thousands of dollars to get it written based on both the files we provided to them, as well as the book by Skipp Porteous and myself. This included material not publicly released, which THEY owned as long as I kept signing the option contract and accepting their checks. The script wasn't a total loser, but it was all over the place with the historical record, the KNOWN facts. The studios claimed poetic license, and I had told them at the start they could do that to an extent...yes...but they had to be accurate on what is actually known. I mean the really basic facts. And they were NOT. For example...the script had Himmelsbach working the case on Cooper Day out of SeaTac Airport, which I thought was ridiculous. They also had Mucklow doing things during the hijacking that were actually done by Flo Schaffner, and vice-versa. Some scenes were simply not true at all. And although I had some control over script content, the studios were unwilling to change certain scenes that any decent Cooper fan would know right away were bullshit. It may sound arrogant, but I could have done a better job with that script, and I HAVE done better jobs with scripts. I have two out there right now. One is based on my book, The 13th Day of Christmas. The other is based on the Marjorie Phleger book, Pilot Down, Presumed Dead. I now have an AAR agent, so I may shop these scripts around after we move to SoCal next year. I am also working on a script of my own based on the KC/Cooper story, but that won't be ready for a few months. 
     
  • When I first decided to 'hold out' unless the studios made some kind of minimal announcement in the trades, one of the production staff threatened me with the idea that they could make the movie anyway, and just change around all the names. Frankly, this REALLY pissed me off. It was an empty threat of course, because the whole script is based on the Blast book, as well as the tons of files we sent to them. And I already knew no one in Hollywood will take on a movie project where outright plagiarism is involved. You can't even get insurance, and the third-party escrow companies who pay the bills on making motion pictures won't touch stuff like that either. But...just the suggestion pissed me off royally. They later retracted that statement and apologized, but at that point, I decided to play hardball with them. Either they do a minimal press release, or I walk. They kept stalling instead. So I made the decision for them. I walked. 
     
  • Frankly, I don't really need the money anyway. Not enough to go along with these studios' plan to alter the known facts in the case. I was recently gifted a house down near Oceanside, CA that is worth approximately three times what would have been my share from this movie. Plus, my parents hold a trust fund for me worth about six times as much as the movie payments would be. Compared to that, I'm not willing to toss my reputation out there on a 'stylized' production just for some easy money. Believe it or not, I do have certain standards, and I'm not that desperate. ^_^
     
  • Because of the reasons above, I refused to sign an extension. If it wasn't going to be a quality production, then they can find someone else. I do get to keep all the money they paid me previously, and I am satisfied with that. It came to a modest five figures in the end. And the Blast book continues to do extremely well worldwide each month via wholesale/Ingram at the trade rate, although somewhat less at Amazon in retail. So the situation isn't a total loss. 
     
  • So...except for the possible (and final) DB Cooper Campout late next spring, I am basically OUT of the Cooper business with the media. I'm still open to the idea of a movie, but I will be negotiating the arrangements a little more closely next time. As those job ads sometimes say:  'Serious only need apply.' 
     
  • Now that I don't have to keep secrets any more, I can tell you that the actor I met in Seattle to discuss this picture back in January 2018 was Nick Robinson, (representing his small production company Hi-Top as an exec producer, he had no plans to appear IN the movie) and the major film production company was Lionsgate. A third studio was involved, but I am not going to name them here because they were the ones who threatened to just change the names around and do the picture anyway. (Both Nick and Lionsgate were very nice, and I never had a problem with them.) As Butch said to Sundance at the end of the famous movie, when he talked about going to Australia:  "Secretly, I figured you wanted to know..."  B)Darren over at the Cooper Vortex has known about Nick for over a year, and even though we've had some differences, I do appreciate that Darren did not reveal that publicly. I want to thank him for that. 

    Some people will be happy with this news. Others will be disappointed. Neither matters much to me. You can comment on all this as you wish. Positive or negative, you won't hurt my feelings. Or you can say nothing. That's fine too. But my decision is final. I did not accept their check, and I let the option expire as of August 31. I have no regrets that I made the right choice. My autobiography should be out right around the time we're hosting (depends on Covid) our final DB Cooper campout next year. I have to do some additions to the final chapters, and add the images. After that, I will be headed to sunny southern California for good. If you would like to read the first couple of chapters of that book, just go HERE
Edited by RobertMBlevins
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The tie as possible red herring...

23 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Why?  for what purpose.. 

 

How would it benefit him,,   pre DNA.. it took 40+ yrs to analyze the particles.

I didn't know it took the FBI 40 years to start looking at the tie. I would've thought they'd do that immediately (to whatever extent they could at the time) as part of very little evidence that they had.

On 9/14/2020 at 10:36 AM, FLYJACK said:

The Goodwill thing is a stretch for such a dirty cheapo tie. Can't see that, it was filthy.

I'm just imagining the possibility of Cooper at the Goodwill, seeing a 'filthy' tie and thinking, 'that'll keep 'em busy for a while...'

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14 hours ago, Greene said:

What happened to Jo Weber "Skyjack71"

 

Well, she lives in Florida and to all known reports, she is still alive. There are a few people who know her phone number, since she used to call other Cooper folks all the time. I don't have her number myself. Contact Bruce S at the Mountain News. He knows her number. 

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(edited)
19 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

The tie as possible red herring...

I didn't know it took the FBI 40 years to start looking at the tie. I would've thought they'd do that immediately (to whatever extent they could at the time) as part of very little evidence that they had.

I'm just imagining the possibility of Cooper at the Goodwill, seeing a 'filthy' tie and thinking, 'that'll keep 'em busy for a while...'

I just don't see how leaving the tie benefits Cooper.. he may have left it intentionally or unintentionally.

If he wanted to mess with the FBI there are many better ways to do it..

 

Also,

Cooper handed money to Tina.. she took it and claimed to return it. Now, Cooper's prints would likely be on that money. So, handing money to Tina was not smart and contradicts his perceived thoroughness.

Cooper also handled the drink money, reportedly offered the other stews ransom money and tip/change money from his pocket. That demonstrates that he wasn't as "sharp" as claimed.. I think he was as lucky as he was sharp.

That risk Cooper took of leaving prints on the money negates the argument that Cooper must have planted the tie because he was so meticulous about not leaving prints behind. 

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That risk Cooper took of leaving prints on the money negates the argument that Cooper must have planted the tie because he was so meticulous about not leaving prints behind.

I do not know why a suicidal man would be careful.

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34 minutes ago, Coopy said:

I do not know why a suicidal man would be careful.

He demanded the notes and matchbook back so many infer he was meticulous about prints and argue he would never leave the tie evidence and therefore it was a plant..  

The fact that he handed out money and left cigarette butts refutes that level of meticulousness..  and the main argument for the plant theory.

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(edited)

I know Eric claims the placard came from next to the bulkhead door but that is impossible, there is not enough room between the access panel and the door on the 727-100,, maybe there is more room on the 727-200, I am not sure.. further the emergency release is too far from that location and behind its own panel. So, the claim that it was attached next to the bulkhead door is false for NORJAK's 727-100.

It is not a fact that the placard came from NORJAK.. 

I think it is very unlikely based on many factors but it is possible.. even the FBI walked it back.

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, Coopy said:

I do not know why a suicidal man would be careful.

Suicidal? The odds are greatly in favor of Cooper surviving the jump. If he's got the nerve to do the hijacking, I'm guessing he has the presence of mind to pull the ripcord, whether he's experienced or not. If he pulls, he's all but assured of getting an open canopy. There's a chance of him being injured on landing, but not fatally so, unless he's unable to hike out and succumbs to the elements.

A few days ago I saw the old Cooper TV documentary that showed Cossey making the statement that the ripcord position would make it difficult for Cooper to pull. I think Cossey was BSing the reporters. That rig was made for an emergency bailout by aircrew or aerobatic pilots, most of whom are presumably not experienced jumpers. Is he saying that most of them would likely go in for inability to pull? He packs those rigs and hands them to his clients. Does he expect them all to bounce if they bail? I think not. Even if he did change the ripcord location (as has been reported) it would still be in an easily accessible spot. Cossey was a jumper and a rigger. I don't think he was earnestly saying that and was wrong, I think he was purposefully feeding them a line.

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Shutter responded...

"It was Cooper's money? of course his prints would be found on any of it he touched prior to or after exiting the plane..plus dozens of other prints would be found on the money since it was in circulation prior to being stored at the bank..does't mean any good prints would be found or even able to link to him.."

This is why I lose patience with that forum, Shutter completely missed the point.

The point isn't whether prints could be found or not on money, the point is Cooper took the risk... and because he took that risk with the money it contradicts the argument that he was meticulous about evidence (clearly he wasn't) and could have only left the tie as a plant. It tells us that the tie plant theory based on Cooper's thoroughness with evidence is bogus. That is all.

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