olemisscub 463 #62426 November 11, 2023 Owen McKenna, the Seattle PD homicide detective who drove the money to the airport (and whose unmarked car, a Dodge Dart, was used by Al Lee to drive to the plane) was in a shootout five years later. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62427 November 11, 2023 1 hour ago, The Cooper Vortex said: New episode out now! DB Cooper was the Elsinore Ghost with Patricia Boland. Enjoy! https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-the-elsinore-ghost-patricia-boland/ Elsinore is a red herring. Lyle Cameron embellished his initial story and later walked it back... IMO, to promote his publication... as an FBI informant he injected himself into the case based on seeing somebody he felt resembled the sketch.. Sketch A, the bad one. "IT MAY BE COINCIDENTAL" "HE SAW AN ADVERTISEMENT" "MAY HAVE STIMULATED QUESTIONS" 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62428 November 11, 2023 (edited) 59 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: Elsinore is a red herring. Lyle Cameron embellished his initial story and later walked it back... IMO, to promote his publication... as an FBI informant he injected himself into the case based on seeing somebody he felt resembled the sketch.. Sketch A, the bad one. "IT MAY BE COINCIDENTAL" "HE SAW AN ADVERTISEMENT" "MAY HAVE STIMULATED QUESTIONS" I have a chapter in my book on the Elsinore Ghost, and while I don't believe that Cooper was the ghost, I don't think Cameron was lying. He was a do-gooder. He had been an LAPD officer in the 1950s and spent 15 years as an officer in the military. The FBI had previously vetted him in the mid-60's and he was cleared to be an informant. In Jan 72, he was ousted as the National Director of the USPA by a 17-2 vote of their Board of Directors. He had found himself in hot water after making accusations that the U.S. Parachute Team were involved in illegal narcotics and were all drug users. The Board also voted to strip him of his ranking as an international skydiving judge. Doesn't seem like the type of individual who would go commit a felony by lying to the FBI. I strongly disagree with your assertion that he was trying to promote his publication because he wouldn't have even been allowed to publicize it. The FBI would have directed him not to disseminate it lest it compromise the investigation into the tip. And again, how could him making up the story have benefited him? He was already the National Director of the USPA and the biggest swinging dick in the entire skydiving community. If anything, providing the tip would have hurt his stock. Skydiving in that era was full of outlaws. Doing something that brought a bunch of feds around to your DZ would have been massively frowned upon, especially for someone about to be ousted by the community for snitching. I've tried like hell to find the early 72 issues of Sky Diver magazine to see if he actually promoted this story. There are no scanned versions online and the only ones for sale are part of a huge collection being sold as a lot. So there are no individual copies out there for purchase or viewing. I don't think he was lying about the encounter, but I would not be surprised if he embellished the story a bit. The skeptic in me has alarm bells going off during the the Raleigh cigarettes part. That's just way too on the nose to be totally authentic. Edited November 11, 2023 by olemisscub 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62429 November 11, 2023 (edited) No way. If I recall he was involved in a theft of government property... There is a reference somewhere about his writing a Cooper story in his publication.. perhaps he was going to and it wasn't published. He saw a guy who looked like sketch A, the bad one then embellished the rest of the story, he remembers Raleigh Coupons.... total BS. But, he walked it all back, case closed. He wanted to use Cooper as PR and when it got too hot with the FBI he walked it back,, his initial story ins't even believable. FACT, he walked it back,, that is all you need to know. Liars walk back claims. Edited November 11, 2023 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62430 November 11, 2023 28 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: No way. If I recall he was involved in a theft of government property... There is a reference somewhere about his writing a Cooper story in his publication.. perhaps he was going to and it wasn't published. He saw a guy who looked like sketch A, the bad one then embellished the rest of the story, he remembers Raleigh Coupons.... total BS. But, he walked it all back, case closed. He wanted to use Cooper as PR and when it got too hot with the FBI he walked it back,, his initial story ins't even believable. FACT, he walked it back,, that is all you need to know. Liars walk back claims. Walking back or providing further context? You're reading that differently than I am. I understand how you're reading it. You think he made the whole thing up, so this is him trying to wiggle out of it. However, if you don't think he made it up, an alternate reading would be that he's actually trying to further assist their efforts. At that point, agents Romanoff and Pond had 433 cards in their possession of jumpers who fit their parameters. But this December 9th phone call from Cameron, which you are saying is him "walking back" his statement, could be seen as doubling down. By narrowing down when he thinks the encounter occurred, he told them that they could use that info to go check the flight records of all the jumps made during that time. They did this and it gave them a much more manageable 31 names. Again, I need you to explain to me how this story would actually benefit the guy when #1, he was already at the top of the food chain and didn't need any additional press, and #2 he was already in hot water for being a snitch. The most reasonable explanation is that this event likely occurred, the guy wasn't actually asking the questions for nefarious reasons, Cameron embellished the story a bit, and that it had nothing to do with Cooper. Also, the incident about the theft you are referring to was actually a possible charge of receiving stolen property. A Navy officer offered to trade Cameron some survival gear for some parachute gear. Cameron accepted. It turned out that the survival gear was originally reported stolen by the US Navy. However, upon investigation the Navy reported that the items were actually things that the Navy officer could have obtained for free, he just technically didn't ask for permission this time. So not only were the items not actually stolen, but Cameron had no idea that they were stolen. The whole thing was dropped rather quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62431 November 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, olemisscub said: Walking back or providing further context? You're reading that differently than I am. I understand how you're reading it. You think he made the whole thing up, so this is him trying to wiggle out of it. However, if you don't think he made it up, an alternate reading would be that he's actually trying to further assist their efforts. At that point, agents Romanoff and Pond had 433 cards in their possession of jumpers who fit their parameters. But this December 9th phone call from Cameron, which you are saying is him "walking back" his statement, could be seen as doubling down. By narrowing down when he thinks the encounter occurred, he told them that they could use that info to go check the flight records of all the jumps made during that time. They did this and it gave them a much more manageable 31 names. Again, I need you to explain to me how this story would actually benefit the guy when #1, he was already at the top of the food chain and didn't need any additional press, and #2 he was already in hot water for being a snitch. The most reasonable explanation is that this event likely occurred, the guy wasn't actually asking the questions for nefarious reasons, Cameron embellished the story a bit, and that it had nothing to do with Cooper. Also, the incident about the theft you are referring to was actually a possible charge of receiving stolen property. A Navy officer offered to trade Cameron some survival gear for some parachute gear. Cameron accepted. It turned out that the survival gear was originally reported stolen by the US Navy. However, upon investigation the Navy reported that the items were actually things that the Navy officer could have obtained for free, he just technically didn't ask for permission this time. So not only were the items not actually stolen, but Cameron had no idea that they were stolen. The whole thing was dropped rather quickly. We don't have to prove how it would benefit him... I can speculate but it isn't necessary, we don't know motivations unless they tell us. The Cooper case was a big deal in the skydiving world and we don't know his relationship with the FBI, was he paid?? If he ran the story it would have made him famous. He walked it back... he came in hot with the claims that he met Cooper then backed way off.. that is a classic sign of CYA. People lie or embellish all the time, there is no corroboration for his initial claim which IMO was never believable. It was as though he had read news reports and added it to some he guy he thought looked like the sketch. The tell is that he said the guy looked like the sketch which at the time was sketch A, the bad one,,, Cooper did not look like sketch A. The entire thing is a red herring. Lots of these land mines in the Cooper case. Frankly, I didn't believe his initial story before the walk back was published in the FBI files.. Maybe, I am just naturally more skeptical about unsubstantiated claims.... I also do not believe Tina's story about the money, it is at least partially deceptive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #62432 November 11, 2023 What is wrong with this explanation...He was shot dead after prison break...can never be found...six feet under. https://youtu.be/Xauaxxa1YSA?si=a26LXn5Ett7bwhtM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62433 November 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, mikeat10500 said: What is wrong with this explanation...He was shot dead after prison break...can never be found...six feet under. https://youtu.be/Xauaxxa1YSA?si=a26LXn5Ett7bwhtM McCoy was an interesting guy, but not Cooper.. He doesn't match the evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #62434 November 11, 2023 19 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: McCoy was an interesting guy, but not Cooper.. He doesn't match the evidence. Cool...you all are quite invested in this I can see...I trust your judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62435 November 11, 2023 37 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: The tell is that he said the guy looked like the sketch which at the time was sketch A, the bad one,,, Cooper did not look like sketch A. You keep bringing up sketch A with me. I began this entire thing by saying that I do not believe the ghost is Cooper. Two things can be true here. This wasn’t Cooper yet he could still be telling his own truth of an incident that occurred to him. It’s the same thing with these other tips like script writer. We don’t have to believe that was Cooper to believe that the event happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62436 November 11, 2023 18 hours ago, FLYJACK said: UK - Money found in River... Paper, floating/suspended, some stuck together but not in complete packets/bundles.. It didn't, but this is what you'd expect if it went through a suction dredge... busted apart packets/bundles. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pictured-banknotes-found-water-spalding-2809107 So, this is a bit baffling... We know that Tom and Chaucer did tests and a packet sinks... But these bills above, some many stuck together do not sink to the bottom but are suspended or buoyant below the surface.. The factors that affect buoyancy are… the density of the fluid the volume of the fluid displaced the local acceleration due to gravity The buoyant force is not affected by… the mass of the immersed object the density of the immersed object The difference between a few bills and a packet isn't explained by the difference in mass/density.. What sticks out is the pressure force and density of the water... I have read that depth does not increase buoyancy but density increases at depth so it changes the equation. The question is,, does a packet of money become more buoyant as the water density increases at depth.... the lowest water density is near the surface. If so, that may cause paper that sinks to become more buoyant at depth due to increase in water density.... suspended in the water column. In other words, the ratio of the object's density vs water density changes with depth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62437 November 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, mikeat10500 said: Cool...you all are quite invested in this I can see...I trust your judgement. Just so you can forever banish this thought from your mind :-) • Mccoy’s photos were shown to all 10 eyewitnesses to Cooper and all 10 said it wasn't the same guy who hijacked their plane. • McCoy had blue eyes • McCoy didn't smoke (no one fake smokes). He ate candy during his hijacking due to his nerves...not smoking. • McCoy was believed to have gone to his class at BYU on the MORNING of the hijacking. • McCoy knew about Cooper so well because he wrote a term paper on Cooper in the spring of 72 (he was a criminal justice major) • McCoy constantly talked to friends about how he could do a skyjacking better than Cooper. • FBI are confident they have Cooper’s palm print. McCoy’s was compared and was no match. • Cooper spoke intelligentially and clearly with no accent. McCoy had a birth defect that gave him a lisp and he was from the south and possessed a southern accent. He had a high pitched voice. He was also a bit of a hillbilly. His voice was so odd that the pilots told the FBI that they thought he was disguising his voice. Turns out that was his actual voice. • McCoy was an absolute nervous wreck during his hijacking and even left his ransom note in the airport terminal where he had been sitting and accidentally locked himself inside the bathroom and had to be let out by a stewardess. • McCoy wore a disguise. Cooper (evidentially did not) • Their MO's were different: Cooper used a fake bomb whereas McCoy used a pistol and fake grenade. • Cooper kept the passengers in the dark. McCoy did not. it goes on and on and on. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62438 November 11, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, olemisscub said: You keep bringing up sketch A with me. I began this entire thing by saying that I do not believe the ghost is Cooper. Two things can be true here. This wasn’t Cooper yet he could still be telling his own truth of an incident that occurred to him. It’s the same thing with these other tips like script writer. We don’t have to believe that was Cooper to believe that the event happened. At best, he may have seen somebody that he thought resembled Cooper based on sketch A but his detailed description of the encounter was clearly embellished.. Since sketch A was a poor likeness of Cooper and he embellished then his account becomes completely irrelevant. My broader point is generally people have given too much credibility to the Elsinore incident.. there is no there there. At best he saw somebody that looked like the bad sketch. This was confirmed when he walked it all back... that indicates he was initially dishonest. Others making claims of their perceptions of some event may be inaccurate but they don't walk back their claim. That is a CYA move. He changed his story to minimize the encounter and his responsibility. IMO, it was because the FBI took it extremely seriously, he didn't expect that and had to throw doubt on his own initial claim. He overplayed it and had to give himself an out. People are amazed by and elevate the initial claim but ignore or minimize the walk back. Elsinore is a non event.. Lyle lied. Edited November 11, 2023 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62439 November 12, 2023 17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: Elsinore is a non event.. Lyle lied. You say this a lot, and maybe this a disconnect because you’re a Canadian, but lying to the FBI is felony. Americans know this. This isn’t something an established individual with everything to lose like Cameron would do on a lark. He caused an incredible amount of manhours to be spent on this “lie”. It would have essentially be obstruction of Justice to purposely distract the FBI like that. They’d have locked his ass up if they ever found out. We disagree I suppose, but I think this event occurred. It just wasn’t Cooper. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62440 November 12, 2023 7 minutes ago, olemisscub said: You say this a lot, and maybe this a disconnect because you’re a Canadian, but lying to the FBI is felony. Americans know this. This isn’t something an established individual with everything to lose like Cameron would do on a lark. He caused an incredible amount of manhours to be spent on this “lie”. It would have essentially be obstruction of Justice to purposely distract the FBI like that. They’d have locked his ass up if they ever found out. We disagree I suppose, but I think this event occurred. It just wasn’t Cooper. Even though I am Canadian I know that lying to the FBI is a felony.. the FBI can catch almost everyone in a lie if they want. Even if people just misremember something. Not a good argument. He would never lie to the FBI because it is a felony. Cossey lied.. Jo Weber lied, Coffelt, Many people lied in the case. I consider an embellishment a lie... Perhaps they didn't think embellishments are lies.. These things start as innocent and can spin out of control. He walked it back when he realized the seriousness. He gave himself an out.. There is ZERO evidence the event occurred beyond a person possibly resembling the sketch A. Even that is questionable.. The details of the event are not believable... he happened to notice and remember Raleigh cigarette coupons well before the hijacking... that is 100% embellishment. That discredits the entire thing. Then in the walk back he recalls an article from many months prior that may have inspired the person.. He is lying... Don't be so naive.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #62441 November 12, 2023 43 minutes ago, olemisscub said: You say this a lot, and maybe this a disconnect because you’re a Canadian, but lying to the FBI is felony. Americans know this. This isn’t something an established individual with everything to lose like Cameron would do on a lark. He caused an incredible amount of manhours to be spent on this “lie”. It would have essentially be obstruction of Justice to purposely distract the FBI like that. They’d have locked his ass up if they ever found out. We disagree I suppose, but I think this event occurred. It just wasn’t Cooper. Olemiss, you mentioned a few posts ago today that you had a Cooper book out. If so, what is the name of it and where can it be purchased? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62442 November 12, 2023 (edited) US $20 bill found suspended above bottom in very shallow lake water... This isn't definitive or scientific but raises some questions. What does a packet of US money do after it sinks in deeper water.. Does it remain suspended above the bottom where it can be moved easily by current?? at 0:53 seconds... Edited November 12, 2023 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62443 November 12, 2023 Columbia River speed is 2-3mph.. Not sure about Spring flood stage.. but if the money goes in the Columbia near the Airport that is only 4-6 hours in the River to reach TBAR.. less if flood waters travel faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #62444 November 12, 2023 2 hours ago, XoXSciFiGuy said: This is why they float, and why US currency bills sink: British pound notes will float, while US paper currency will sink because of their different densities. The density of water is 1000 kg/m³, while the density of air is 1.225 kg/m³. This means that a British pound note, which is denser than air, will experience an upward buoyant force that is greater than its weight, causing it to float. A US paper currency, on the other hand, is less dense than air, so it will experience a buoyant force that is less than its weight, causing it to sink. Here is a simple calculation to illustrate this: Buoyant force = volume of displaced fluid * density of fluid * acceleration due to gravity For a British pound note floating in water: Buoyant force = pi * (radius of pound note)^2 * depth * density of water * acceleration due to gravity For a US paper currency sinking in air: Buoyant force = pi * (radius of dollar bill)^2 * depth * density of air * acceleration due to gravity Since the density of water is much greater than the density of air, the buoyant force on a British pound note will be much greater than the buoyant force on a US paper currency. This difference in buoyant force is enough to overcome the weight of the British pound note, causing it to float, while the US paper currency will sink. So, I suppose that we are not supposed to notice that you are back? You are as full of shit today as you were the day you were booted off of the DZ. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62445 November 12, 2023 27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: Columbia River speed is 2-3mph.. Not sure about Spring flood stage.. but if the money goes in the Columbia near the Airport that is only 4-6 hours in the River to reach TBAR.. less if flood waters travel faster. It’s my understanding from a hydrologist that objects don’t cross rivers. They’ll stay on the same side. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62446 November 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert99 said: Olemiss, you mentioned a few posts ago today that you had a Cooper book out. If so, what is the name of it and where can it be purchased? Not published yet. Waiting on a few FOIA’s to come in. I’ve got a Cooper case big dog writing the forward for me. They really liked the samples I sent them. Edited November 12, 2023 by olemisscub 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #62447 November 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, olemisscub said: It’s my understanding from a hydrologist that objects don’t cross rivers. They’ll stay on the same side. That is for surface debris. I was being general about where the money went in the River.. it could have gone in the middle or one side. But the Columbia has a big bend.. the River flow hits Sauve Island and pushes across toward TBAR. What exactly happens during a flood event in the 1970's,,, I am not sure. Edited November 12, 2023 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #62448 November 12, 2023 Thank you....you have done your homework...and mine too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 463 #62449 November 12, 2023 “D.B. Cooper is a celebrity unspoiled by reality.” Outstanding quote from Professor John Wigger’s new book about McNally’s skyjacking. The Hijacking of American Flight 119: How D.B. Cooper Inspired a Skyjacking Craze and the FBI's Battle to Stop It https://a.co/d/9sscbBQ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #62450 November 12, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, FLYJACK said: That is for surface debris. I was being general about where the money went in the River.. it could have gone in the middle or one side. But the Columbia has a big bend.. the River flow hits Sauve Island and pushes across toward TBAR. What exactly happens during a flood event in the 1970's,,, I am not sure. I dont get it. Sauve Island is not before (south of) Tena Bar, or across from Tena Bar, but north of Tena Bar. How does a land mass north of Tena Bar push water back south to Tena Bar ? The land mass that affects hydrology flowing north by Tena Bar, is Caterpillar Island and the inlet above it, which are south of Tena Bar ! That is the active land mass and hydrology shaping the area south of Tena Bar. Edited November 12, 2023 by georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
