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DB Cooper

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47 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

People have said Cooper died and have used the missing person argument like Dick Lepsy to explain who he was. The logic is that the reason no one claimed Cooper is because he was a missing person and therefore already missing. 

Ok, I wasn't sure what you meant exactly, as it could have been a couple of things.

I don't totally disagree with that, but I certainly haven't seen a suspect that fits it either.

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Got an email from Shutter today approving me. Thanks all.

I will be active on all forums as they all offer valuable perspectives. 

The primary reason I suggest a splashdown in the river is the money. There is no way the money ended up in Tena Bar without it being in the water. If the money was in the water, then so was Cooper. 

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A factor that I haven't seen discussed, and I don't know how accurate it is (I'm guessing some of you do), is this:

Cooper's jet is flying at 10.000ft., but that is MSL (above sea level). On that 'Case Closed' doc, it said that the ground elevation was was something like 4500ft. So even with an immediate pull, that puts Cooper under canopy at 5 or 5.5 AGL, (above ground level). That would reduce the possible distance of his drift.

Also, the forward throw of the airplane doesn't last that long (wind resistance), so even with a no-pull, it wouldn't account for a whole lot of distance.

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13 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Got an email from Shutter today approving me. Thanks all.

I will be active on all forums as they all offer valuable perspectives. 

The primary reason I suggest a splashdown in the river is the money. There is no way the money ended up in Tena Bar without it being in the water. If the money was in the water, then so was Cooper. 

I disagree. Cooper could have lost the money when his chute opened.

Whether he died, or lost the money when the chute opened, the money being in the Columbia is still hard to explain, imo.

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31 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

A factor that I haven't seen discussed, and I don't know how accurate it is (I'm guessing some of you do), is this:

Cooper's jet is flying at 10.000ft., but that is MSL (above sea level). On that 'Case Closed' doc, it said that the ground elevation was was something like 4500ft. So even with an immediate pull, that puts Cooper under canopy at 5 or 5.5 AGL, (above ground level). That would reduce the possible distance of his drift.

Also, the forward throw of the airplane doesn't last that long (wind resistance), so even with a no-pull, it wouldn't account for a whole lot of distance.

The ground elevation in the FBI LZ was mostly 200 to 600ft with some peaks up to 1200ft..

The FBI used a 3 mile drift as a potential. 

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Got an email from Shutter today approving me. Thanks all.

I will be active on all forums as they all offer valuable perspectives. 

The primary reason I suggest a splashdown in the river is the money. There is no way the money ended up in Tena Bar without it being in the water. If the money was in the water, then so was Cooper. 

Nothing in the Cooper case is that simple..

The money most likely came from the river, some think it was buried by Cooper, I don't. 

The Palmer report suggests it arrived within a few years of the find. The diatom found suggests it went into and out of the water in spring, not Nov when hijacking occurred.

To have Cooper landing in the water you need to reject other evidence. It is always possible he did..  but there are other theories that can fit all the evidence better.

I don't think any of them will be proven.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Respectfully, I disagree. The simplest explanation is usually the best.

To have Cooper successfully land and escape with the money (But never spend a dime) while simultaneously having some of the decayed money appear 9 years later dozens of miles from the assumed dropzone requires a series of events to occur that are unlikely at best and crazy at worst.
Regarding the diatoms:  they only indicate that the money fanned out in the warmer months, not contacted the water. The bills could easily have been packed tight in the bag for months or years before breaking open and fanning out. 
Lastly, Kaye’s analysis indicated the money was on Tena Bar for no more than a year. If true, then why would Cooper plant money 8 years after the crime? He had already gotten away with it? It beggars the imagination.

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(edited)
35 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Respectfully, I disagree. The simplest explanation is usually the best.

To have Cooper successfully land and escape with the money (But never spend a dime) while simultaneously having some of the decayed money appear 9 years later dozens of miles from the assumed dropzone requires a series of events to occur that are unlikely at best and crazy at worst.
Regarding the diatoms:  they only indicate that the money fanned out in the warmer months, not contacted the water. The bills could easily have been packed tight in the bag for months or years before breaking open and fanning out. 
Lastly, Kaye’s analysis indicated the money was on Tena Bar for no more than a year. If true, then why would Cooper plant money 8 years after the crime? He had already gotten away with it? It beggars the imagination.

Cooper landing in the Columbia isn't the simplest explanation, it requires rejecting other evidence. The simplest explanation also requires staying inside the goal posts as much as possible.

Nothing about this 50 year old case is simple...

Bills fan out initially then solidify.. 

There are theories that do not require Cooper to plant money on TBAR a few years prior...  I don't think he returned or anybody planted the money.

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Got an email from Shutter today approving me. Thanks all.

I will be active on all forums as they all offer valuable perspectives. 

The primary reason I suggest a splashdown in the river is the money. There is no way the money ended up in Tena Bar without it being in the water. If the money was in the water, then so was Cooper. 

10,000 bills.  About 300 were found at Tina Bar.  If that means Cooper was in the water, then where is the rest of the money?  All 300 bills were found together too.  Most of the money was not likely in the water, so with that logic, Cooper was not in the water.  The case is deep, take a look at some of the theories, you'll find that there are many, and many have nothing to do with Cooper landing in the Columbia.

I'll defer to an aviation expert, but my understanding is that Portland's elevation is about at sea level (50 feet), Seattle is around 150-175 feet.  A man jumping from 10,000 feet at a target around 50 feet, will fall close to 10,000 feet.  If they were over a mountain, then it would be different.

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What evidence would have to be rejected for Cooper to have jumped near the Columbia? The 50 year old Ariel dropzone has been dubious for years.

how can you explain Cooper jumping near Ariel, then some of the money ending up buried near At Tena Bar?

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4 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

What evidence would have to be rejected for Cooper to have jumped near the Columbia? The 50 year old Ariel dropzone has been dubious for years.

how can you explain Cooper jumping near Ariel, then some of the money ending up buried near At Tena Bar?

 

Why is it dubious? It was only challenged when the TBAR was found. There is no evidence Cooper landed in the Columbia.

The FBI LZ was rejected to fit...  because TBAR couldn't be explained. The evidence for  the FBI LZ didn't change.

I have several explanations, other people have some and there is always the unknown..

 

Think it through, if Cooper landing in the Columbia is your #1 theory,, a theory that everybody has considered.. then what is your second or third option.. can you think up another option that fits the evidence or do you have only one option.

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(edited)

One of the BIG reasons they know approximately where Cooper jumped is the airstairs indicator light. When Cooper first opened the airstairs, the indicator light on the flight engineer's control panel came on. He told the crew when it did. When Cooper actually JUMPED, the stairs rebounded after being freed of his weight. They bounced back UPWARD, and for just a moment, the airstairs indicator light went OFF. This also coincides with the 'pressure bump' noted by the flight crew. The light came back ON again...and stayed ON...all the way to Reno. (Because the stairs went back down and settled there.) Or like co-pilot Bill Rataczak said once:

Quote

'We know where Cooper jumped. We just don't know where he landed....'

Chaucer says in part: 
 

Quote

Lastly, Kaye’s analysis indicated the money was on Tena Bar for no more than a year. If true, then why would Cooper plant money 8 years after the crime? He had already gotten away with it? It beggars the imagination.

He had NOT gotten away with it, that could be your answer. At the time of the hijacking, the Statute of Limitations on air piracy was five years. It was changed later, but for Cooper it was still five years and he would have been free and clear as long as no one had a name to put on an arrest warrant. The Statute does not mean that if the cops are looking for you that if they don't catch you in five years, you are free and clear. 

What it really means is that if they cannot identify you enough to put a name on a warrant, THEN you would be free after five years. If they know who they are looking for, then they can ignore the Statute and just keep renewing the warrant every couple of years for as long as they want. But in Cooper's case they had no idea who he really was, so the Stature applied. 

But just before the Statute was due to expire on November 24, 1976, the Portland FBI successfully got a Federal judge to go AROUND the law and issue a John Doe warrant instead. And since Cooper was constantly in the news all over the Northwest for years, this new development was heavily covered in Northwest media. It is almost a certainty that the real Cooper heard about this as well. My thought is that he must have been crushed. Many mentions in the TV news, newspapers, etc about the Statute coming up to a day where Cooper would be free and clear, even if he walked into a police station and presented some of the bills...these things were all over the news. For Cooper, you can imagine what happened. One minute he thinks he will be free and clear (finally!) and then it is all snatched away from him. Now the FBI (and everyone else in law enforcement) can continue to look for him as long as the FBI keeps renewing the warrant if needed. This move was a surprise to everyone, even the media. 

The Federal judge who issued the warrant restricted it only to Cooper himself, and did not include any possible accomplices. My guess is the judge wasn't exactly thrilled with being asked to go around the US Constitution just for Cooper, and reluctantly caved in to pressure from the Portland FBI...who were probably under pressure themselves from the main FBI HQ in Washington, DC. 

What does all this mean? Well...it could have motivated Cooper to try some kind of red herring. I used to think the money was deliberately planted at Tina Bar at some point AFTER November 24, 1976 when the John Doe warrant on him made the news. These days I lean toward the idea that Cooper simply tossed some of the money into the Columbia river after that date, but not right away. He would have to consider his options. Would it work? Would it throw off the FBI? WHAT method would work? 

For example: If Cooper decides to just toss a couple of bundles into the woods somewhere near where he actually jumped...okay...let's say someone finds it and turns it in. FBI agents scour the area. Finding nothing else like a body, a chute, a briefcase, anything else...they will know the money was a plant and Cooper is still alive. And that Cooper has RESPONDED to the warrant with an action of his own. It would do no good, and make things worse for him. They will redouble their efforts to find him. 

But...if he tosses some into the Columbia, not only could it make the money non-usable, but it would create doubt that Cooper was still alive. And if this was Cooper's plan, it worked. After the money was discovered, the FBI started saying they now thought Cooper was dead, and in fact, scaled back the budget they were spending hunting for him. Planting the money on land would not work. Water was the only way. 

According to the FBI's rendition of the flight path, the location of the money is at least six miles WEST of where the jet actually was, and the jet was moving away a bit from Tina Bar at that time. 

TinaBarandFlightPathQuestion.jpg.5ee5db185465ed6238f0c8e322d29136.jpg

ABOVE: An early rendition of my theory on the money and the flight path. UPDATE: Ignore the part about 'three bundles of the cash' and simply note that the hijacked jet was moving away from Tina Bar at the time it passed that area, and was at least six miles away from where the money was eventually found. The REAL point here is that if you believe the FBI's contention that Cooper jumped PRIOR to the flight crossing the Columbia River, it is impossible for that money to have arrived at Tina Bar by falling from the sky. Someone would have to have put the money into the river at a later date. There is absolutely NO evidence to indicate that Flight 305 EVER was on the west side of the Interstate 5 freeway, no matter what some people have claimed. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins
'at least six miles WEST...' (not east)

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1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

What evidence would have to be rejected for Cooper to have jumped near the Columbia? The 50 year old Ariel dropzone has been dubious for years.

how can you explain Cooper jumping near Ariel, then some of the money ending up buried near At Tena Bar?

When did I say he jumped near Ariel? I don't think he jumped near Ariel.  I believe he jumped between Battle Ground and Orchards.  Coincidentally this is very flat terrain too.

The evidence/information I use are the flight transcripts and the FBI map.

Again, there are many theories as to how the money got to Tena Bar.  It looks like you're on the forum now.  Take a look at the money find threads.  Flyjack has some theories too that I personally don't rule out.

It's good to have ideas and theories.  We were all newcomers to this case at one point too.  Some common newcomer beliefs that often change are: He landed in the Columbia.  He died.  He landed near Lake Merwin.  He didn't spend the money. He was CIA. He was Rackstraw.  The crew was in on it.  It was freezing cold that night.  There are many misconceptions too.

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(edited)
Quote

"Some common newcomer beliefs that often change are: He landed in the Columbia.  He died.  He landed near Lake Merwin.  He didn't spend the money. He was CIA. He was Rackstraw.  The crew was in on it.  It was freezing cold that night.  There are many misconceptions too..."

Truer words (about the Cooper case) were never spoken. Brother, you hit that one right on the head. 

I have a pretty good idea on why they didn't find any of the bills in circulation, though. Himmelsbach claimed for years that both Treasury, the Fed banks, and the FBI were looking for those bills for years. It was all baloney, although the truth is that Himmelsbach himself probably didn't know the truth, either. 

The truth is that after the first six months post-hijacking, nobody was really LOOKING for the money anymore. This came out in FBI agent Larry Carr's interview with Steven Rinehart, which you can hear at THIS LINK. Carr revealed that within three months after the bill list was issued to all the NW banks and casinos, many of them gave up the effort, and after six months, virtually ALL of them had said the heck with it. For tellers, it was a nightmare. 

Then you have a senior official at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving, a guy I interviewed about Himmelsbach's claim of 'we looked for years'. (The BPE is where all used or damaged bills eventually end up.) This guy tells me that even if the FBI ordered them to keep looking for a specific set of twenties, that at most such an effort would have went on for no more than a week or two. One reason he gave was that they received 'truckloads' (his words) of currency each week and it would have been an impossible task anyway. He DID say that maybe the Fed banks may have looked a little longer, maybe a few months but not for very long. 

This tells me that within six months after the hijacking, as long as Cooper doesn't try walking onto a car lot and buying something with a boatload of twenties, he was probably safe. Hell, he might even be able to deposit it into a bank account a bit at a time, although personally I think he wouldn't have tried that one for quite a while. Just to be safe. The hard fact still says that within no more than a YEAR at most, it was probably safe to spend the money.

Because no one was searching bills from the FBI list anymore. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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No big deal, but I have released a WordPress article on our biggest...and final...DB Cooper Campout. It is tentatively scheduled for the second weekend of August. The article explains why the date set is 'tentative,' but it is likely that date will work just fine. Frankly, it depends on the Covid-19 situation.

No use asking me questions about it either here, or at Quora, Facebook, etc. The article is self-explanatory on why. Everyone is welcome to attend if they wish, but under certain simple rules which are explained at the WordPress article.

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:11 PM, FLYJACK said:

I got news that the party involved in a 40+ year old crime/mystery which I recently solved is planning a documentary... and they asked if I'd be in it. 

For me, this mystery was far easier than the Cooper case but goes on my resume as a major win and gives my crime/mystery solving research and critical thinking skills big cred..  and it is a very very cool story. Just like the Cooper case it was an intellectual puzzle but in many ways it was more satisfying than the Cooper case.. the case was stone cold and I solved it completely on my own but I controlled the process and environment. It wasn't solved by science, it was solved by reasoning and critical thinking.

 

The problem for everyone with a suspect in the Cooper case is the forensics and reliance on the crumbs the FBI gives us.. we don't control forensics and only that will 100% put a suspect on the plane. The best anyone can do is to build a circumstantial case so strong that the authorities are forced to apply the forensics, if they really want to solve it. I don't think they do.. at least at the top. 

 

Nice work, Fly. Would love to hear more about it. Congrats!

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3 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

No big deal, but I have released a WordPress article on our biggest...and final...DB Cooper Campout. It is tentatively scheduled for the second weekend of August. The article explains why the date set is 'tentative,' but it is likely that date will work just fine. Frankly, it depends on the Covid-19 situation.

No use asking me questions about it either here, or at Quora, Facebook, etc. The article is self-explanatory on why. Everyone is welcome to attend if they wish, but under certain simple rules which are explained at the WordPress article.

I wanted to add for this post that we have temporarily re-opened the Facebook page on Cooper for this one, and made it available at Quora Cooper. I always take personal posts at Quora Cooper seriously, because those go out to over 1,800 people who receive them by email. Also a notice via Twitter and a public post to my page at Facebook. 

Tell you the truth, I don't know how many will show or what kind of party will happen, but it should be better than Covid Confinement. I only hope the Covid-19 crisis subsides by August 7th enough to keep our promise. It's tricky, but I think we can pull it off if the situation warrants. Up this morning, already a dozen emails in my box about it. I have to consider each one, reply intelligently if I can. :) We have three months to plan and organize, so I am encouraged. 

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(edited)

The main reason to reject the Columbia River landing is the pressure bump, the diatoms are also a conflict. That bump marks Cooper's jump, the problem is determining exactly where along the path it occurred. It wasn't as far south as the Columbia.. The Columbia River landing is possible and a valid theory but it loses points for rejecting the pressure bump and FBI LZ evidence.

 

My analysis... highest probability.

The FBI LZ is generally close.. Cooper jumped along the FBI flightpath 8:11-13, he probably survived. He was likely the person who broke into the store that night and he used the rail tracks next to the store to get out of the area.

The TBAR money went into the Columbia or Willamette in spring of 1979 or 1978... and washed up on TBAR within a short period of time.. days or weeks.

 

The speculation..

The money was not planted but discarded into the Columbia or Willamette by somebody other than the hijacker. It may have been intentionally discarded by somebody trying to get rid of it thinking it was a liability or unintentionally made its way into the St John's landfill and ended up in the surrounding Slough which empties into the Willamette a few miles upstream of TBAR...

 

There are many theories that can be drawn from above.. I can think up about 5..

My favourite one is Tina.. but there are others.. this fits all the evidence except the one statement Tina made that she handed back the money.. it is the simplest explanation within the goal posts..

Tina didn't return the money she asked for and received from Cooper. She was in Gresham 1978 and had a nervous breakdown. Her brother in law FBI agent and sister moved her to a Nunnery in Eugene in Spring of 1979. The money was the cause of the breakdown. To protect her, one of them discarded the money in the Spring of 79.. either tossing into the Columbia at Gresham or better into the Willamette near the Eugene Nunnery. The money tumbled down the gravel bottom of the Willamette for a few weeks rounding off the edges and landed on TBAR. The money was 3 packets rubber banded into one SINGLE bundle. TBAR was a natural garbage dump loaded with debris from the river..

 

This is my top theory.. but there are others.

 

This content is copyrighted and reproduction in whole or in part by Georger is not authorized. All others are authorized.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

"negotiable American/US currency"

The crowd over at the other forum has completely screwed this up.. they have the facts wrong, the arguments are bogus and the conclusions are wrong.. we went over this and Georger is making the same bogus argument that he made before.

 

The argument is that an American without foreign currency experience wouldn't qualify a ransom demand with "American" or "US" currency. The word "Negotiable" isn't the point here. 

The pilots used "American" and Tina said Cooper later told her he wanted "US", we have two sources. The pilots and Tina.

Bruces' argument was that the crew added it. Problem is the crew was American so why add it,, That argument makes no sense, the American crew added it but Cooper didn't because he was American.. and Tina also claimed Cooper said it to her.

Georger's argument was that Cooper demanded to go to Mexico, so to be consistent he used American/US,, but Georger has the timeline wrong, American/US was used hours before the Mexico demand was made. Cooper already had the money when made the Mexico demand. If Cooper wanted to actually go to Mexico (preplanned) when he asked for the money.. it makes sense. 

 

Enter the newbie Bookman...

He uses examples to make a conclusion that the phrase is not uncommon.. the problem is nobody actually checked his argument. 

First, the commonality of the phrase itself isn't the issue. A ransom demand using American/US to describe currency is. It is the CONTEXT...  How many ransom demands by hijackers or bank robbers are made without any foreign influence using "American/US" currency.. The argument is that a ransom demand using American/US without a foreign context is not common.

Second, I checked three of his examples and they all have a foreign context. In fact, those examples actually confirm that the use of the term has a foreign influence/context

 

 

So, now newbie Bookman has changed the argument and used examples that confirm the original conclusion, but worse nobody actually checked it..

The argument is a ransom demand using American/US to define the currency by somebody without some foreign influence would be rare. Now, this is consistent with a military person with recent overseas exposure. It doesn't indicate Cooper is not American but that he has foreign exposure..

To state Cooper was not American is too strong..

It would be very rare for a person without foreign exposure to qualify a ransom demand with "American/US" currency.

 

 

The irony is the crowd over there has got everything exactly backwards.

 

Bookman's examples.. you guys can check the others..

international espionage

https://archive.org/details/MikeShayneMysteryMagazineAnnual1972/page/n57/mode/2up/search/"negotiable+american+currency"?q="negotiable+american+currency"

Germany

https://archive.org/details/currencydealerne2002coin/page/n109/mode/2up/search/"negotiable+american+currency"?q="negotiable+american+currency"

International narcotics operation 

https://www.amazon.com/SWORDFISH-Story-Ambition-Savagery-Betrayal/dp/0679420193

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
7 hours ago, haggarknew said:

Nice work, Fly. Would love to hear more about it. Congrats!

Thanks, it is such a great story, cooler than Cooper..  I tracked down and found a "famous" item stolen over 40+ years ago..

This Covid-19 has messed up things..  I'll explain it later, what it is and how I did it.

Edited by FLYJACK

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Flyjack says this in part:

Quote

 

'My analysis... highest probability.

The FBI LZ is generally close.. Cooper jumped along the FBI flightpath 8:11-13, he probably survived. He was likely the person who broke into the store that night and he used the rail tracks next to the store to get out of the area.

The TBAR money went into the Columbia or Willamette in spring of 1979 or 1978... and washed up on TBAR within a short period of time.. days or weeks...'

 

Believe or not, except for the Willamette river part, we agree on something completely. This is also the scenario I have settled upon over the years. As far as whether Cooper actually intended to go to Mexico, Reno, Yuma, or anywhere else that was mentioned, I say absolutely not. I don't believe Cooper had the slightest intention of remaining aboard the flight one second longer than necessary once the plane left Seattle. If he had, he would not have bothered putting on the chute right away. Those suggested destinations/refueling stops etc were just a ploy to try and throw off his real intentions, or any possible 'cops waiting on the ground' scenario. 

The longer he stays aboard, the more his chances he will be caught because it gives LEO more time to prepare. One thing he probably didn't know was about the indicator light in the cockpit showing that the airstairs door was open. Or even if he knew, that the act of jumping from those stairs would make the light flash, and tell everyone WHEN he jumped. Simply put, he probably figured they would know the door was open...but NOT realize his jump point because of the light flashing off for a second. All in all it was a pretty good plan. No one in the back to sit there and snitch to the flight crew saying he just departed. They fly along until Reno is reached...and no one would know the jump point. But the little red light on the flight engineer's panel gave him away. It was the only real flaw in his plan because if the light would NOT flash off from the stairs rebounding when he jumped, the truth is that no one would know WHERE he jumped all the way to Reno. They would have had the pressure bump, but without the light flashing, no one could be sure. Maybe the bump is just from the door opening. They would have to consider that. They would not know for sure the jump point. 

The truth is that one little flash of the indicator light told them quite a bit. 

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Man, Georger proves he is a clown..

First, Georger argues Cooper said "American" to back up the Mexico demand.. but the Mexico demand was after Cooper received the money.. FAILED ARGUMENT

Then Georger as usual shifts the goal post and suddenly claims Cooper never said it.. but the crew added it, that was Bruce's argument. A better one actually but not conclusive. Georger is goal seeking to support his conclusion.. he even attacks me for having a suspect, but he doesn't address the argument or get the facts right.

This is what makes Shutter's forum so TOXIC..  no critical thinking, just goal seeking.

Proof, bookman's argument was never examined, just nodding, grunting and snorting  approval based on the conclusion,,, problem is, his examples prove the exact opposite to his conclusion. NOBODY CHECKED. Lazy...

 

"American" was transmitted by the crew, why would an American crew add "American"?? to Coopers demand,,,  It is possible but very odd. 

amcurrency.jpeg.463636683dab22d37cc4a4d255bd5ef4.jpeg

 

So, we look further, Tina said Cooper later told her circulated "U.S." currency, now we have "American" and "U.S." being used... did they both add it in, possible but getting very unlikely.

tinauscurrency1.jpeg.50e47518041c557083c22fa90fa22d35.jpeg

 

It is very likely Cooper used "American/US" currency and it would be very rare for somebody without foreign influence/exposure to do so..

Go down to your local bank and ask to withdraw some cash,, are you going say "American" or "US" Currency...  extremely unlikely or rare.

 

It is an over reach to say it indicates a foreigner, it just suggests somebody with foreign exposure/influence... still could be an American. May be military..

 

If you clowns over there don't get your facts and arguments straight you're just going to keep going in circles for another decade.

 

 

 

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