DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

37 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Sorry, again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't read it that way at all. The jump occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 when the plane was in the suburbs of Portland. At 8:15 =/- a minute they are over Vancouver.  The call to Soderlind has to be shortly after that. 

This lines up with all other FBI documents on the matter and matches the crew descriptions of where they were when the jump occurred.

That isn't what I see at all, the call was 5 - 10 minutes later which is corroborated by the suburbs of Portland statement. 

He is estimating the time of the call to Soderlind (5-10 min later)(shortly after the jump) then he says the exact call time should be logged. Clearly the the context is the time of call not the jump.

8:15 is roughly Battleground.. 

Elsewhere they used oscillations within 5-10 minutes from 8:05 because the call to Soderlind was the parameter until they examined all the comms.

If the jump was at 8:10-12 ish as later determined it all matches up..

Rataczak also believed Cooper jumped 25 miles North of Portland

Edited August 31, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Rataszcak was explaining the time Cooper departed and that Cooper jumped between two parameters.. 

I am intellectually able to read it both ways. I can read it as that paragraph being about Cooper's jump and I can read it as if it was about the Soderlind call. I see what you're suggesting, but I don't feel it passes muster. 

Grammatically it's very wonky and the grammar is why I tend to think it's about Cooper's jump, among other reasons. If it was about the Soderlind call then they should have just put it at the end of that paragraph instead of starting a new paragraph. 

Additionally, Rataczak wouldn't need to give a general statement about their location with regard to the call time because he just got done saying "the exact time will be in the company log." So it's unnecessary for him to speak about where they were when they made the call to Soderlind since he just stated that it will have a known timestamp. 

With respect, I don't think you're "reading the room" accurately when it comes to that interview and what info Campbell was trying to obtain. Why would Campbell care where they were when they made the call to Soderlind when he just found out that it was timestamped? Much more reasonable to assume that he asked a new question: "do you remember where you were when this bump occurred?" Can you really see him asking "do you remember where you were when you made the call to your company office?" I mean, that would be sorta burying the lede, no? Campbell would not have been interested in trying to do some calculation to figure out his precise jump location at that point, but trying to figure out the rough location of the jump. 

With these 302's being transcriptions of handwritten notes, that paragraph break signifies a new thought or a new question. Paragraph breaks exist for a reason. If Rat had still been describing the call to Soderlind then it would have been part of the previous paragraph. Instead, I think it's very, very reasonable to assume that Campbell asked them where they were when the bump occurred. 

I just think you may be overthinking this one. I honesty don't think that paragraph tells us too much anyways. In the grand scheme of a 3 and a half hour flight from Seattle to Reno, I think the entirety of Clark County could be construed to mean "suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof" of Portland. 

 

[Chaucer 103]

Yup, we are at loggerheads on this one. 

Even Rat told Carr that the bump was 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact. To me the suburbs of Portland comment is 100% referring to the bump.

8:15 the plane is almost overhead Vancouver. 

As I said, there are fundamentals of this aspect of the case that you and I completely disagree on. A lot of it is a matter of interpretation. 

If my analysis is correct, I might have an answer. 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I am intellectually able to read it both ways. I can read it as that paragraph being about Cooper's jump and I can read it as if it was about the Soderlind call. I see what you're suggesting, but I don't feel it passes muster. 

Grammatically it's very wonky and the grammar is why I tend to think it's about Cooper's jump, among other reasons. If it was about the Soderlind call then they should have just put it at the end of that paragraph instead of starting a new paragraph. 

Additionally, Rataczak wouldn't need to give a general statement about their location with regard to the call time because he just got done saying "the exact time will be in the company log." So it's unnecessary for him to speak about where they were when they made the call to Soderlind since he just stated that it will have a known timestamp. 

With respect, I don't think you're "reading the room" accurately when it comes to that interview and what info Campbell was trying to obtain. Why would Campbell care where they were when they made the call to Soderlind when he just found out that it was timestamped? Much more reasonable to assume that he asked a new question: "do you remember where you were when this bump occurred?" Can you really see him asking "do you remember where you were when you made the call to your company office?" I mean, that would be sorta burying the lede, no? Campbell would not have been interested in trying to do some calculation to figure out his precise jump location at that point, but trying to figure out the rough location of the jump. 

With these 302's being transcriptions of handwritten notes, that paragraph break signifies a new thought or a new question. Paragraph breaks exist for a reason. If Rat had still been describing the call to Soderlind then it would have been part of the previous paragraph. Instead, I think it's very, very reasonable to assume that Campbell asked them where they were when the bump occurred. 

I just think you may be overthinking this one. I honesty don't think that paragraph tells us too much anyways. In the grand scheme of a 3 and a half hour flight from Seattle to Reno, I think the entirety of Clark County could be construed to mean "suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof" of Portland. 

 

Makes perfect sense. He is clearly giving a parameter for the jump/oscillations.

Rataczak is giving a parameter from his perspective at the time, a range that Cooper jumped/oscillations.. 

Between last contact at 8:05...  and the call to Soderlind.

He knows he called Soderlind shortly after the oscillations/jump but doesn't know the exact time so he says 5-10 min later.. but the company should have the exact time logged.

For years I did read it the other way because everyone else did but it all makes sense with Ratazcak's other statements and other case info.

805 last contact

810-12 oscillation/jump

813-15 (roughly) call to Soderlind in suburbs of Portland

 

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Makes perfect sense. He is clearly giving a parameter for the jump/oscillations.

Rataczak is giving a parameter from his perspective at the time, a range that Cooper jumped/oscillations.. 

Again, agree to disagree I guess. It just seems like in the grand scheme of that interview that Rataczak is talking about WHEN the bump occurred (note that he gives no location data in that paragraph) and so then Campbell goes "Ok, so WHERE were you when this occurred?" The paragraph breaks matter. 

[FLYJACK 654]

20 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Yup, we are at loggerheads on this one. 

Even Rat told Carr that the bump was 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact. To me the suburbs of Portland comment is 100% referring to the bump.

8:15 the plane is almost overhead Vancouver. 

As I said, there are fundamentals of this aspect of the case that you and I completely disagree on. A lot of it is a matter of interpretation. 

If my analysis is correct, I might have an answer. 

 

It was 5-10 mi after 8:05.. before the call.

I don't agree with your minute adjustment to the map.. but I do think there is a 1 minute + -  error rate in the "FBI" map.

Look at the spacing between the minute plots, the gaps between the plots are nowhere close to consistent as you would expect for a jet..

Your 8:15-8:16 DISTANCE is EQUAL TO 8:16-8:18 , DOUBLE THE DISTANCE.

This is impossible. Jet didn't go double the speed.

that spacing indicates that those plots are not very accurate. When I did an analysis I found that the plots were very off but that they equalized over distance.. meaning that individually they are imprecise but over distance the aircraft speed is consistent. The plot distances all average to an accurate speed but individually are off. The missing 8:04 doesn't change the speed over distance, that tells us it is a rounding artifact, not a missing time.

When you look at 7:59 - 8:03 the spacing is significantly larger than it should be relative to other spacing before and after..

8:07 - 8:08 is way off

Clearly the plots are not precise times but rounded off to the minute.. and that rounding happened to go down for 8:03 then up for 8:05.. The missing 8:04 is caused by rounding not an error in the subsequently marked numbers.

 

My approach is to try to fit a likely scenario into all available information, a best fit thing.

My jump scenario fits all the information without the need to reject anything.

 

You rely on almost everything being an error or misunderstood.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

46 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Again, agree to disagree I guess. It just seems like in the grand scheme of that interview that Rataczak is talking about WHEN the bump occurred (note that he gives no location data in that paragraph) and so then Campbell goes "Ok, so WHERE were you when this occurred?" The paragraph breaks matter. 

Sure, he was trying to pinpoint the oscillation, the presumptive jump time.

He clearly gave a parameter, that is the only references he had. The last contact and the Soderlind call.

None of this in quotes. so it is Campbell's paraphrasing. 

We know Rat said Cooper jumped about 25 miles N of Portland. That doesn't match the suburbs.

[Chaucer 103]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You rely on almost everything being an error or misunderstood.

What a peculiar thing to say. 

I'd say that the only thing I think was in error was the conflation of the oscillations and the pressure bump, and that idea isn't a new one. Sluggo, CKRET, and others had basically made this Cooper canon 15 years ago. 

Nevertheless, I'm no mood to fight. As I said, we have have very different views of this case at a very fundamental level, and that's fine. 

 

[olemisscub 466]

51 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

We know Rat said Cooper jumped about 25 miles N of Portland. That doesn't match the suburbs.

Rat said the 25 miles N of Portland stuff much later. At the time that he was talking to Campbell he was speaking generally. As I said, in the grand scheme of 3 1/2 hours flying time from Seattle to Reno, all of Clark County could be considered "suburbs of Portland". From their perspective they were only a few minutes north of Portland proper i.e. "suburbs" or "immediate vicinity". 

I think that term is too vague to make much of it since it's relative to being in a jet airliner. If you were in a car you wouldn't call La Center a suburb of Portland but from 10,000 feet up traveling 200mph, it's a bit different.  

[FLYJACK 654]

59 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

What a peculiar thing to say. 

I'd say that the only thing I think was in error was the conflation of the oscillations and the pressure bump, and that idea isn't a new one. Sluggo, CKRET, and others had basically made this Cooper canon 15 years ago. 

Nevertheless, I'm no mood to fight. As I said, we have have very different views of this case at a very fundamental level, and that's fine. 

 

The FBI scenario is wrong..

the map time is wrong

and multiple claims from Rataczak are wrong.

 

It is almost like a Beyesian analysis.. the better a theory fits the evidence the more likely..  the more rejected the less reliable. 

We don't have all the facts so we are trying to get to the truth by applying probabilities to the information/evidence we have.

[olemisscub 466]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The FBI scenario is wrong..

the map time is wrong

and multiple claims from Rataczak are wrong.

 

It is almost like a Beyesian analysis.. the better a theory fits the evidence the more likely..  the more rejected the less reliable. 

We don't have all the facts so we are trying to get to the truth by applying probabilities to the information/evidence we have.

And you claiming that they were already trying to reverse engineer time data to precisely determine the DZ while sitting at the Reno Airport sounds far more improbable than what seems quite obvious to the rest of us, which is that Rat was asked about approximately WHERE all of this happened that he was just talking about. 
 

Do you honestly believe that Campbell wouldn’t have asked where they were when the pressure bump occurred? Of course he did. And that’s the answer. If it was saying what you think it says then it would have been attached to the previous paragraph. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

52 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Rat said the 25 miles N of Portland stuff much later. At the time that he was talking to Campbell he was speaking generally. As I said, in the grand scheme of 3 1/2 hours flying time from Seattle to Reno, all of Clark County could be considered "suburbs of Portland". From their perspective they were only a few minutes north of Portland proper i.e. "suburbs" or "immediate vicinity". 

I think that term is too vague to make much of it since it's relative to being in a jet airliner. If you were in a car you wouldn't call La Center a suburb of Portland but from 10,000 feet up traveling 200mph, it's a bit different.  

You are having your cake and eating it too...

If the suburbs from a jet could be all of Clark County then the term suburb in regards to Cooper's jump is meaningless..

If he claimed Cooper jumped in the suburbs aka Clark County then that also supports the 8:10-8:12 jump..  People are using the suburb comment to move the jump further South from the 8:10-12 time.

He also said before "Portland proper"...

I believe the suburbs meant Battleground to Vancouver.. 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

25 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

And you claiming that they were already trying to reverse engineer time data to precisely determine the DZ while sitting at the Reno Airport sounds far more improbable than what seems quite obvious to the rest of us, which is that Rat was asked about approximately WHERE all of this happened that he was just talking about. 
 

Do you honestly believe that Campbell wouldn’t have asked where they were when the pressure bump occurred? Of course he did. And that’s the answer. If it was saying what you think it says then it would have been attached to the previous paragraph. 

You are overcomplicating this. 

Campbell wanted to get from Rataczak where he believed Cooper jumped.

He asked about the oscillation. This was the presumed jump time.

Rataczak only had two parameters, before and after the oscillations. Those events that could be time checked and narrow down Cooper's jump time. 

First, the last comm with Cooper at 8:05. Ratascak did not know about the 8:10-12 times at this point. He knew Cooper was on the plane during that last Comm.

and the call to Soderlind which was shortly after the jump/oscillation and he thought would be time stamped. He believed it was 5-10 minutes later in the suburbs.

These two events could be time checked to narrow down Cooper's jump.

He just conveyed those two parameters...  Rataczak may not have even known the 8:05 time exactly, it could have been added by Campbell, but he knew that Cooper jumped in between those two events.

Edited September 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

All I know is that my jump scenario fits all the evidence/information..

I don't have to reject multiple claims by Rataczak, I don't have to move the flightpath, I don't have to shift the map times, I don't have to reject the oscillation/bump conclusions by the FBI, I don't have to redefine the term suburb.... and that gives me a 90% confidence that Cooper jumped between the Lewis and about Battleground.. but most likely close to the 8:11-8:12 + /-  marks on the "FBI" map. 

I have seen no evidence that this can't be correct.

and I have studied many alternate scenarios but have always come back to this one.

Edited September 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

All I know is that my jump scenario fits all the evidence/information..

I don't have to reject multiple claims by Rataczak, I don't have to move the flightpath, I don't have to shift the map times, I don't have to reject the oscillation/bump conclusions by the FBI, I don't have to redefine the term suburb....

So what is my angle here? Do I have a DZ agenda? 

[FLYJACK 654]

29 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

So what is my angle here? Do I have a DZ agenda? 

Everyone has an agenda..

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Everyone has an agenda..

Speak for yourself. I could give a shit where Cooper jumped. It makes no difference to me. I have no agenda when I discuss flight path or DZ. These topics really don’t interest me, so my conclusions are based solely on how I interpret the evidence.

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, olemisscub said:

Speak for yourself. I could give a shit where Cooper jumped. It makes no difference to me. I have no agenda when I discuss flight path or DZ. These topics really don’t interest me, so my conclusions are based solely on how I interpret the evidence.

My agenda is the truth,, What is yours?

[olemisscub 466]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

My agenda is the truth,, What is yours?

Cinnamon Toast Crunch

[georger 197]

24 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Speak for yourself. I could give a shit where Cooper jumped. It makes no difference to me. I have no agenda when I discuss flight path or DZ. These topics really don’t interest me, so my conclusions are based solely on how I interpret the evidence.

It would be nice to have a start point for the money transport to Tena Bar. Cooper's LZ would be a good place to start?

[olemisscub 466]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

It would be nice to have a start point for the money transport to Tena Bar. Cooper's LZ would be a good place to start?

There is a 9 year gap in the chain of custody with the TB money. I don’t think Cooper’s DZ within the accepted flight path makes a difference unless it puts him over the Columbia, which it cannot.  

[FLYJACK 654]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Cinnamon Toast Crunch

Lawyers, never answer a question..

If you don't care about the DZ or flightpath than why are you here..

What is your interest or goal for this case. You know, agenda?

Edited September 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Coopericane 44]

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-86/view

[FLYJACK 654]

Himmelsbach book p 48

 

Rataczak flew plane by hand the entire trip from Seattle, not wanting.. automatic pilot.

Rataczak was flying, not Scott.

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Coopericane said:

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-86/view

Not giving up much... Coffelt, Coffelt, Coffelt...

They reveal the placard location blueprints but they are unreadable..

Previous files said the placard was on the outside..