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quade

DB Cooper

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(edited)
2 hours ago, haggarknew said:

I would be curious as to what he said also. Did you talk with him?

I'm sure you would.

Here's the deal, for real:  Due to the numerous, and mostly negative comments by other Cooper folk on other websites...who obviously read this thread due to their references on it in their comments...I have decided to cut Dropzone loose for a while. 

If you have any questions, I am not hard to find. Frankly, I am crazy busy these days, some Cooper-related, some not. 

I think it's time for some folks other than me to be heavy contributors to this thread. I already told everyone my part in Cooperland was rapidly approaching an end. I did what I could, and the results were nothing but polarizing. Some people pulled out all the stops, went to extremes, lied or used phony identities, (some still do) and frankly I would rather be doing something else than dealing with that. Such as doing Cooper stuff in the real world, for example. 

But this is the last year for all that. The book, the movie, my autobiography Cooperland, and a couple of other things will have to stand as my final word on all of this. I already have my next sci-fi book planned, and you can bet the farm I am looking forward to doing that rather than anything more about D.B. Cooper. He's been mostly a pain in the ass. B)

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Cooper survived the jump.

 And you can dismiss Captain Bohan's claims out of hand.  Bohan may have taken off from SEATAC  four minutes after NWA 305 but he was probably on V-23 East and not V-23.

Further, Bohan's claim of an 80 knot wind from the southeast is nonsense.  At 10,000 feet, the hijacked airliner was experiencing a 30+ knot wind from the southwest.

In addition, Bohan's claim of an extreme cross wind on landing at Portland is not supported by the actual weather data.  The highest measured wind at Portland that day was about 10 knots which could easily be handled by any 16 year old student pilot.

R99-I don’t know where the Bohan stuff came into this.

You state that there is no evidence DB Cooper survived. 

What is the evidence that he died?

What evidence would be required to lean towards his survival?

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4 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

R99-I don’t know where the Bohan stuff came into this.

You state that there is no evidence DB Cooper survived. 

What is the evidence that he died?

What evidence would be required to lean towards his survival?

Bohan apparently entered the picture at Himmelsbach's FBI retirement party which took place in 1980 and several weeks after the money was found at Tina Bar.  He is mentioned in Himmelsbach's book and no where else as far as I can find.

In reality, there is no conclusive proof either way that Cooper survived or died in the jump.  But based on secondary facts, such as the money find at Tina Bar and that none of the bills were ever found in circulation, etc., the probability is that Cooper died in the jump and that he jumped very near Tina Bar.

The simple fact that the FBI refuses to release the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the airliner's flight is evidence that the FBI doesn't want anyone to know where Cooper actually jumped.  I tried to get those transcripts through FOIA actions.  But even with three Congressional interventions, my efforts were unsuccessful.     

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10 hours ago, haggarknew said:

I would be curious as to what he said also. Did you talk with him?

 

8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm sure you would.

Here's the deal, for real:  Due to the numerous, and mostly negative comments by other Cooper folk on other websites...who obviously read this thread due to their references on it in their comments...I have decided to cut Dropzone loose for a while.

That's balderdash, Robert. Those people have been heckling you for a long time. You should be used to it by now. Either laugh them off or stop reading them. There are people here who read your posts objectively. Don't throw attitude at us because of those yokels.

You said you had a line on that guy and that you were going to talk to him. That's interesting. You said you'd report what he had to say. Please do.

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

10,000 foot jumping was the oxygen threshold

However it was then, for reference, here is how it is now. The FAA has various oxygen requirements that are based on a combination of altitude and exposure time. Based on those factors, oxygen must be: Available to the pilot, available to the passengers, required for the pilot, required for the passengers. The first altitude threshold for all of that is 14,000 ft MSL (above sea level).

That one page references jump altitudes at Elsinore. Typical sport jump altitude is 12,500 ft. That's pretty standard worldwide. However, those altitudes are AGL (above ground level). Elsinore has a field elevation of 1,253, so 12,500 AGL is just under 14,000 MSL. The exposure time is usually pretty short. No oxygen is required, and for most people no onset of hypoxia is felt.

One should be able to hang out at 10,000 AGL with no problems.

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On Cooper's chances of surviving the jump, here's a logistical opinion from a highly experienced jumper.

Parachutes are exceedingly simple devices. Far less complex than the brakes on your car. Cooper is clearly a ballsy guy. Even if he had no jump experience at all, exiting the plane and pulling a ripcord would seem to be within his capabilities. I think the odds are overwhelmingly in his favor that he ends up under an open canopy.

However...

Those bailout rigs are reserve parachutes. Even for those days, they were extremely low performance canopies. At best, they have very sluggish steering, and very low forward speed to work with. Some of them have no steerability or forward drive at all, and some evidence suggests that that was indeed the type that Cooper had. That means that he had very little if any control over exactly where he lands. If he landed in a flat open field, he's probably good to go. However, if he landed in trees, rocks, or a hillside, that increases the chances that he gets injured on landing, and is possibly unable to hike out. That would be a problem.

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38 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

On Cooper's chances of surviving the jump, here's a logistical opinion from a highly experienced jumper.

Parachutes are exceedingly simple devices. Far less complex than the brakes on your car. Cooper is clearly a ballsy guy. Even if he had no jump experience at all, exiting the plane and pulling a ripcord would seem to be within his capabilities. I think the odds are overwhelmingly in his favor that he ends up under an open canopy.

However...

Those bailout rigs are reserve parachutes. Even for those days, they were extremely low performance canopies. At best, they have very sluggish steering, and very low forward speed to work with. Some of them have no steerability or forward drive at all, and some evidence suggests that that was indeed the type that Cooper had. That means that he had very little if any control over exactly where he lands. If he landed in a flat open field, he's probably good to go. However, if he landed in trees, rocks, or a hillside, that increases the chances that he gets injured on landing, and is possibly unable to hike out. That would be a problem.

Emergency parachutes are simple and reliable.  But the problem is more complicated here.  Cooper would have had a money bag tied to himself and perhaps a jury rigged chest chute and maybe other items as well.  This really complicates the aerodynamics.  He was also above an overcast with about three additional cloud layers below the overcast.  Plus it was night time and there was a light rain at ground level.

Even if he was an experienced sky diver, and nothing supports that idea, he would not have had any references to stabilize his jump.  He would have initially dropped through the 727 down wash, which was unusually strong even for airliners, and would have tumbled.  There is no way he could have avoided tumbling.  It is highly likely that he would have been disoriented within seconds after jumping.  If he pulled the ripcord immediately, there is a  high probability that he would have become entangled in the canopy and shroud lines.

If the canopy did not deploy successfully, Cooper would have been on the ground within about 40 to 60 seconds which is probably a lot faster than he would have expected.

Cooper had an NB6 backpack emergency parachute.  For the record, I owned a similar NB6 emergency parachute until the fall of 1971, about a month or two before the hijacking.  While I never jumped that particular parachute, I am familiar with its characteristics.    

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(edited)

R99. What are your thoughts on the copycats who survived? Where is the other $194,000 dollars that did not end up on Tina Bar? Where is the body?

I’m of the belief he survived. When I started I may have been 50/50. 
 

Bottom line for me is that his death/survival is debatable and the FBI narrative is misleading when it says he likely died. Maybe they want it that way, to keep Cooper thinking he is safe. I wonder if they actually did find more $20s. It took 20 years for them to tell us about the tie. 

Edited by CooperNWO305

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(edited)
1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

 

I’m of the belief he survived. When I started I may have been 50/50. 
 

Bottom line for me is that his death/survival is debatable and the FBI narrative is misleading when it says he likely died. Maybe they want it that way, to keep Cooper thinking he is safe. I wonder if they actually did find more $20s. It took 20 years for them to tell us about the tie. 

Same here, I started out about 50/50 or less, now lean strongly that he survived..

Hahneman walked backwards down the ventral stairs and jumped out of a 727 at night with money and cigarettes over the jungle from 9,000 feet with a military chute from Andrews AFB, he walked 10 miles to a road and had sustained very minor injuries.

Cooper's jump was very similar, he could have survived. Of course we don't have proof one way or the other, it is irresponsible to claim he died based on evidence. It is an opinion.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

However it was then, for reference, here is how it is now. The FAA has various oxygen requirements that are based on a combination of altitude and exposure time. Based on those factors, oxygen must be: Available to the pilot, available to the passengers, required for the pilot, required for the passengers. The first altitude threshold for all of that is 14,000 ft MSL (above sea level).

That one page references jump altitudes at Elsinore. Typical sport jump altitude is 12,500 ft. That's pretty standard worldwide. However, those altitudes are AGL (above ground level). Elsinore has a field elevation of 1,253, so 12,500 AGL is just under 14,000 MSL. The exposure time is usually pretty short. No oxygen is required, and for most people no onset of hypoxia is felt.

One should be able to hang out at 10,000 AGL with no problems.

More indication Cooper was military... 

also..

"he has heard that the parachutes furnished to the man were a commercial brand named Pioneer and now surplus Navy parachute NB-8".

Cossey claimed it was his NB-8,, Hayden had two identical Pioneer chutes. 

Both of Hayden's Pioneer chutes are accounted for..

One returned, one left on the plane..

 

cooperpioneernb8.jpeg

 

Hayden packing card for chute returned. 

Serial number and date does not match Pioneer chute left of plane. 

Cooper DID NOT take either of Hayden's chutes.

Haydenpackingcard.jpeg.f02e457d38862fd0151a053ad0b1003f.jpeg

chuterethayden.jpeg

cooperchutebcakleftreno.jpeg

 

seatchuteleft.jpeg.57c50d2dc9c7a89b0af2687b8c5e5a0f.jpeg

chutes.png.5491347e3f5377e4ab3698fe569b3a22.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

More indication Cooper was military... 

also..

"he has heard that the parachutes furnished to the man were a commercial brand named Pioneer and now surplus Navy parachute NB-8".

Cossey claimed it was his NB-8,, Hayden had two identical Pioneer chutes. 

Both of Hayden's Pioneer chutes are accounted for..

One returned, one left on the plane..

 

cooperpioneernb8.jpeg

 

Hayden packing card for chute returned. 

Serial number and date does not match Pioneer chute left of plane. 

Cooper DID NOT take either of Hayden's chutes.

Haydenpackingcard.jpeg.f02e457d38862fd0151a053ad0b1003f.jpeg

chuterethayden.jpeg

cooperchutebcakleftreno.jpeg

 

seatchuteleft.jpeg.57c50d2dc9c7a89b0af2687b8c5e5a0f.jpeg

chutes.png.5491347e3f5377e4ab3698fe569b3a22.png

You and CooperNWO305 are free to believe anything you want about Cooper's chances for surviving.

On the matter of the parachutes, note the conflicting information in the FBI paperwork about the "SN", "Type", and "Date of Manufacture".  I doubt if some of those "serial numbers" are even serial numbers in the first place.

Both of Hayden's chutes were assembled from various components that were manufactured for the military by different firms in WW2.  That is, a single company did not make the entire parachute.  But each component was made to a specific Military Specification and the various components were interchangeable with components made by one of several other firms.

In view of the conflicting information in the FBI paperwork, I do not see any problem with the parachutes.  That is, there were only two back packs and they belonged to Hayden and the two chest packs came from the sky diver operation.

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6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

You and CooperNWO305 are free to believe anything you want about Cooper's chances for surviving.

On the matter of the parachutes, note the conflicting information in the FBI paperwork about the "SN", "Type", and "Date of Manufacture".  I doubt if some of those "serial numbers" are even serial numbers in the first place.

Both of Hayden's chutes were assembled from various components that were manufactured for the military by different firms in WW2.  That is, a single company did not make the entire parachute.  But each component was made to a specific Military Specification and the various components were interchangeable with components made by one of several other firms.

In view of the conflicting information in the FBI paperwork, I do not see any problem with the parachutes.  That is, there were only two back packs and they belonged to Hayden and the two chest packs came from the sky diver operation.

For Cooper surviving or not that is just an opinion, not really anywhere to go from there.

 

The chutes.

As usual R99, to maintain your denial, you toss in lots of assumptions that just don't add up.

Hayden claimed the FBI chute descriptions (not the card data) are wrong and didn't come from him.

Hayden claimed his two chutes were identical. (Pioneers)

Hayden even speculated that perhaps there were two sets of back chutes.. one set from him and one set from Cossey.

The chute Cooper took was an NB-8. (Cossey)

The descriptor S/N and type are mixed up because of the way it is filled out on the card.. the descriptor is below the line. The descriptor can easily be misread as above the text. So, that isn't an issue. The data is correct, it came from the card which was in the chute pocket.

The fact is the data on the cards DO NOT MATCH, if that isn't a problem for you or anybody then you should give up and leave this case.

This is so obvious it is ridiculous to deny..

Set aside your bias and look at the facts objectively.

 

 

 

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I have no opinion on whether Cooper died or not. I suppose there are reasons to believe either way. My belief is that he either died, or he survived but lost the money. I suppose he could have both died and lost the money as well. I'm not a believer that he survived and got away with the money. 

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(edited)
3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

For Cooper surviving or not that is just an opinion, not really anywhere to go from there.

 

The chutes.

As usual R99, to maintain your denial, you toss in lots of assumptions that just don't add up.

Hayden claimed the FBI chute descriptions (not the card data) are wrong and didn't come from him.

Hayden claimed his two chutes were identical. (Pioneers)

Hayden even speculated that perhaps there were two sets of back chutes.. one set from him and one set from Cossey.

The chute Cooper took was an NB-8. (Cossey)

The descriptor S/N and type are mixed up because of the way it is filled out on the card.. the descriptor is below the line. The descriptor can easily be misread as above the text. So, that isn't an issue. The data is correct, it came from the card which was in the chute pocket.

The fact is the data on the cards DO NOT MATCH, if that isn't a problem for you or anybody then you should give up and leave this case.

This is so obvious it is ridiculous to deny..

Set aside your bias and look at the facts objectively.

 

 

 

You need to read the FBI paperwork that you included in a post above.  It is obvious that the description of the very same parachute is garbled and that it refers to the back pack that was left on the airliner.

Where do you get the packing card information for the NB8 parachute and the one that Cooper jumped with?

Edited by Robert99

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(edited)
29 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

You need to read the FBI paperwork that you included in a post above.  It is obvious that the description of the very same parachute is garbled and that it refers to the back pack left that was left on the airliner.

Where do you get the packing card information for the NB8 parachute and the one that Cooper jumped with?

I don't need to do anything, you are the one that is confused.

both of Hayden's chutes are accounted for, Cooper did not use either of Hayden's chutes,,, get it.

 

Two similar back chutes were sent from Hayden. Both packed by Cossey the same date.

1) Pioneer packed by Cossey May 21/71 manufactured 1960 S/N 60-9707. This was left on the plane confirmed by card found in chute.

2) Pioneer packed by Cossey May 21/71 manufactured 1957 S/N 226. Confirmed by packing card. This was returned to Hayden then went to museum.

 

There is no packing card or data for the NB8

 

.

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't need to do anything, you are the one that is confused.

both of Hayden's chutes are accounted for, Cooper did not use either of Hayden's chutes,,, get it.

 

Two similar back chutes were sent from Hayden. Both packed by Cossey the same date.

1) Pioneer packed by Cossey May 21/71 manufactured 1960 S/N 60-9707. This was left on the plane confirmed by card found in chute.

2) Pioneer packed by Cossey May 21/71 manufactured 1957 S/N 226. Confirmed by packing card. This was returned to Hayden then went to museum.

 

There is no packing card or data for the NB8

 

.

The "S/N 60-9707" you list above is probably a contract number rather than a serial number.

Who knows where the "S/N 226" comes from, but it is not very likely to be a serial number.  You are saying this parachute wasn't left on the airplane.  So just exactly where did it spend the time between the hijacking and the date it was returned to Hayden.

No packing card or data for the NB8?  That is probably because the NB8 never existed in the first place despite Cossey's remarks.

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(edited)
35 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

The "S/N 60-9707" you list above is probably a contract number rather than a serial number.

Who knows where the "S/N 226" comes from, but it is not very likely to be a serial number.  You are saying this parachute wasn't left on the airplane.  So just exactly where did it spend the time between the hijacking and the date it was returned to Hayden.

No packing card or data for the NB8?  That is probably because the NB8 never existed in the first place despite Cossey's remarks.

My god, you are dense.. 

look at the packing card for Hayden's returned chute that I ALREADY POSTED... 226 is the S/N

Clearly, you can't comprehend simple facts... and manufacture your own reality.

This is the front and back of packing card from Hayden's returned chute - it DOES NOT MATCH the info on the card found in the pocket of the back chute left on the plane,,, THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT.

Haydenpackingcard.jpeg.c69067beef392a7c64975f12ccdfbd43.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

My god, you are dense.. 

look at the packing card for Hayden's returned chute that I ALREADY POSTED... 226 is the S/N

Clearly, you can't comprehend simple facts... and manufacture your own reality.

This is the front and back of packing card from Hayden's returned chute - it DOES NOT MATCH the info on the card found in the pocket of the back chute left on the plane,,, THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT.

Haydenpackingcard.jpeg.c69067beef392a7c64975f12ccdfbd43.jpeg

The packing card for the parachute that Hayden got back indicated that Hayden DID NOT have it repacked after it was returned to him.  You can check with the WSHM people on this point.  The illustration you posted above indicates that whatever parachute the back of this packing card refers to was repacked in 1982 and 1986.  Consequently, I doubt that the front and back pictures above are for the same packing card.  

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(edited)
42 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

The packing card for the parachute that Hayden got back indicated that Hayden DID NOT have it repacked after it was returned to him.  You can check with the WSHM people on this point.  The illustration you posted above indicates that whatever parachute the back of this packing card refers to was repacked in 1982 and 1986.  Consequently, I doubt that the front and back pictures above are for the same packing card.  

R99, you are wrong about virtually everything, please give up,, I can't take it.

You are flinging crazy non-sequitors and misinformation around..

Yes it is the same packing card..

"In addition, the chute was re-packed twice – in 1982 and 1984 – after its return from the FBI, according to Norman."

https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/

It matches the FBI data (S/N & date) for the back chute and also matches the FBI noted (S/N & date) for the one returned to Hayden.

 

Accept it,, there is no intellectual escape, it is over..

THE CHUTES DON'T MATCH

COOPER DID NOT JUMP WITH EITHER OF HAYDEN'S CHUTES...

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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On whether Cooper survived the jump...

 

On any jump made, the odds are against that the person goes in. But occasionally they do anyway, so I suppose anything is possible. But we don't know how Cooper fared, so we look at the situation and consider what is likely to have happened. Robert99 posted some scenarios that I think are unlikely. R99, I'm not bagging on you, I don't know you personally, I'm just giving an objective take on your suggestions.

23 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Emergency parachutes are simple and reliable.  But the problem is more complicated here.  Cooper would have had a money bag tied to himself and perhaps a jury rigged chest chute and maybe other items as well.  This really complicates the aerodynamics.

Not necessarily. Cooper was a smart guy, I would guess that whatever he tied to himself, he tied tightly and securely. With the back bailout rig and the money tied to his front, that wouldn't have been too much different than the typical sport rig of the day, with a back main and front-mount reserve.

23 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Even if he was an experienced sky diver, and nothing supports that idea, he would not have had any references to stabilize his jump.  He would have initially dropped through the 727 down wash, which was unusually strong even for airliners, and would have tumbled.  There is no way he could have avoided tumbling.  It is highly likely that he would have been disoriented within seconds after jumping.

Freefall stability is kind of like learning to ride a bicycle, in that there is a subtle balance point to it. At first it can be hard to control, but once it 'clicks', it's really not hard. And like everything, some people take to it quicker than others. If he had prior freefall experience, the exit would not have been hard. And if he didn't, and he did tumble, again, he's a ballsy guy, I'm guessing he would keeps his wits about him enough to pull.

23 hours ago, Robert99 said:

If he pulled the ripcord immediately, there is a  high probability that he would have become entangled in the canopy and shroud lines.

Not at all. Many people have deployed while tumbling and gotten open just fine. That spring-loaded pilot chute comes off your back quickly and takes the canopy with it. If you're gonna get tangled up in anything, it's most likely going to be the bottom part of the lines. And when the canopy opens, it's gonna flick you out of that like an errant yo-yo. You may end up with line burns, but you're most likely going to have an open canopy.

23 hours ago, Robert99 said:

If the canopy did not deploy successfully, Cooper would have been on the ground within about 40 to 60 seconds which is probably a lot faster than he would have expected.

Parachute malfunctions are pretty rare. And of the malfunctions that do happen, total pack closures are very rare, and so are high speed streamers. Most malfunctions that do occur on rounds are slow speed, like line-overs or partial inversions. Maybe a bit higher rate of descent and less control than you might otherwise have, but usually survivable.

 

I think it's highly probable that he survived the jump. The concern I have, as I stated before, is whether he was injured on landing and able to hike out.

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26 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

On whether Cooper survived the jump...

 

On any jump made, the odds are against that the person goes in. But occasionally they do anyway, so I suppose anything is possible. But we don't know how Cooper fared, so we look at the situation and consider what is likely to have happened. Robert99 posted some scenarios that I think are unlikely. R99, I'm not bagging on you, I don't know you personally, I'm just giving an objective take on your suggestions.

Not necessarily. Cooper was a smart guy, I would guess that whatever he tied to himself, he tied tightly and securely. With the back bailout rig and the money tied to his front, that wouldn't have been too much different than the typical sport rig of the day, with a back main and front-mount reserve.

Freefall stability is kind of like learning to ride a bicycle, in that there is a subtle balance point to it. At first it can be hard to control, but once it 'clicks', it's really not hard. And like everything, some people take to it quicker than others. If he had prior freefall experience, the exit would not have been hard. And if he didn't, and he did tumble, again, he's a ballsy guy, I'm guessing he would keeps his wits about him enough to pull.

Not at all. Many people have deployed while tumbling and gotten open just fine. That spring-loaded pilot chute comes off your back quickly and takes the canopy with it. If you're gonna get tangled up in anything, it's most likely going to be the bottom part of the lines. And when the canopy opens, it's gonna flick you out of that like an errant yo-yo. You may end up with line burns, but you're most likely going to have an open canopy.

Parachute malfunctions are pretty rare. And of the malfunctions that do happen, total pack closures are very rare, and so are high speed streamers. Most malfunctions that do occur on rounds are slow speed, like line-overs or partial inversions. Maybe a bit higher rate of descent and less control than you might otherwise have, but usually survivable.

 

I think it's highly probable that he survived the jump. The concern I have, as I stated before, is whether he was injured on landing and able to hike out.

great comment,,

I agree, it is highly probable Cooper survived the jump. 

 

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41 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

great comment,,

I agree, it is highly probable Cooper survived the jump. 

 

Heady estimates he jumped at over 300 miles per hour.  Lapointe jumped into the snow. Within 7 months of Cooper, 5 men jumped from similar planes and survived.

Even most in the FBI have Cooper landing between Battleground and Orchards.  I've personally seen that area, and can attest that it is flat as a pancake.  There are many open fields.  I'd have to see a topographical map from 1971, but I think it was likely as open then as it is now, if not more.

What is difficult to do is put ourselves back to before we knew the details of the jump, and then look at it objectively.  The big problem is that the narrative was put out that Cooper died, so people believed it.  Had it started out that Cooper lived, things might be very different.

We know he likely had a good chute for survival (maybe not for steerability).

He had a chute to wrap himself in to stay warm

It was not freezing cold.  Life would have been uncomfortable, but survivable.

No body was ever found, and had it gone into the ocean, it would have had to travel a ways, over dams and obstacles.

10,000 bills left that plane, yet only 300 were found.  We know bank tellers stopped looking for the bills fairly soon.  Cooper could have spent the money.

The FBI who says he died still decided to keep the case open for over 40 years, spend millions of dollars on it, and had a list of 1,000 suspects.  That's a lot to do for a dead man.

The list goes on.  To me there is way more information indicating survival than death.

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