DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Just now realized that the 1960 card was pulled from the pocket of the museum chute. Good lord, this parachute business is really something else. The whole business from late December of the 1960 being an "integral part of the chute" made me think that the 1960 card was just shoved in the folds of the museum chute. Guess not. 

Yup, crazy,, this is what I have been saying for a while..

Cooper must have removed the card from the chute he used,, either he put it in the other chute pocket or somebody found the card on the plane and put it in the pocket..

But, the chute returned to Hayden ended up with the correct #226 card.

 

Cossey really played the FBI and undermined this case..

A 2003 interview..

He was still claiming the back chutes were his from Issaquah and the chute differences were obvious.. Hayden thought they were identical..

We can't rely on Cossey's descriptions at all..

[olemisscub 463]

13 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yup, crazy,, this is what I have been saying for a while..

 

What it seems like is Cooper probably didn't shove the card all the way into the pocket, so the Sgt. just pulled it out not realizing there was another card inside the pocket because duh, parachutes don't have TWO packing cards, so why would he look to check the pocket more thoroughly? Then by the time it gets to evidence the agent just goes about his business and writes "these cards are contained in the back of the chute pocket" not realizing that two cards is abnormal. That's one thing Detlor was firm about during our conversation. Essentially: "for this parachute business and the drop zone and all these other assorted technical things, we had to rely on others to provide us with insight. So it wasn't our fault if we looked in the wrong place."

Edited July 24, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

What it seems like is Cooper probably didn't shove the card all the way into the pocket, so the Sgt. just pulled it out not realizing there was another card inside the pocket because duh, parachutes don't have TWO packing cards, so why would he look to check the pocket more thoroughly? Then by the time it gets to evidence the agent just goes about his business and writes "these cards are contained in the back of the chute pocket" not realizing that two cards is abnormal. That's one thing Detlor was firm about during our conversation. Essentially: "for this parachute business and the drop zone and all these other assorted technical things, we had to rely on others to provide us with insight. So it wasn't our fault if we looked in the wrong place."

and if the #60-9707 chute was a 24' as indicated by the card then it wasn't an NB-6..

Cossey was mistaken, he thought the back chutes were going to be taken from Issaquah with the fronts but meanwhile Hayden's back chutes were secured so they told Emrich only to send the fronts. Cossey was contacted the night of the hijacking and told a Pioneer was left so he assumed the chute taken by Cooper was his 28' NB-6...  He would have figured out that he was wrong within a day or so but never corrected it,,, He managed to keep the lie going due to the chute confusion..

But because of this they were looking for the wrong chute for over 50 years. 

 

 

[olemisscub 463]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Cossey was mistaken, he thought the back chutes were going to be taken from Issaquah with the fronts but meanwhile Hayden's back chutes were secured so they told Emrich only to send the fronts. Cossey was contacted the night of the hijacking and told a Pioneer was left so he assumed the chute taken by Cooper was his 28' NB-6...  He would have figured out that he was wrong within a day or so but never corrected it,,, He managed to keep the lie going due to the chute confusion..

. 

This doesn’t explain why Hayden/Halstad (whomever) also thought they were 28 and 26 footers. Their comments predate Cossey being contacted. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

This doesn’t explain why Hayden/Halstad (whomever) also thought they were 28 and 26 footers. Their comments predate Cossey being contacted. 

Not sure about the timing, Cossey was contacted on the 24th, those descriptions are dated 25th... Cossey was also contacted on the 26th.

The 26 ft chute was accurate other than the "civilian luxury" part.. Hayden rejected that the description and denied talking to the FBI so it wasn't from him. 

There are only three ways to get those descriptions..

From Hayden,,  he denies talking to the FBI and the description.

From Cossey, he was called on the 24th after the chute was found in Reno..  but his description changed from the original description on the 26th.

From somebody checking the cards right before the chutes went on the plane.. unlikely because they didn't note the serial numbers.

The 26' was correct for #226, but the 28' for the other chute is inconsistent with the 24' on the card for #60-9707..

Maybe, the description was from Cossey on the 24th but got falsely attributed to Hayden.. if so, the 28' came from the same source,, Cossey.

Something like, the owner of the chutes was called on the 24th and described the chutes as._____   Cossey claimed he was the owner.. but it was actually Hayden. So, Cossey's description gets attributed to the owner, Hayden.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Cossey had claimed the canopy Cooper used was a "flat circular" but the packing card found in the chute left behind (wrong chute) for #60-9707 stated a "conical".. They are not the same.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by FLYJACK

[SeventyWonderful 18]

This is something fun I came across the other day.  Take a look at dark, wrap-around glasses that Mike Nesmith is wearing.  They show up in the episode The Monkees on the Wheel, which was filmed in the Fall of 1967.  In it the Monkees have to pretend to be gangsters in order to rob the real gangsters who robbed a casino.  There are more screenshots of them here and here.

They also briefly show up in another episode called The Picture Frame where the Monkees are duped into robbing a bank.  It was also filmed in 1967.

It's interesting to note that if Cooper indeed had on similar sunglasses that he was able to shield his eyes while looking out the sides of them.

Edited July 26, 2023 by SeventyWonderful

[FLYJACK 654]

Here, Soderlind indicates all three flight crew felt the "pressure bump" THEN checked the Gauge..  found to have a very significant change.

IMO, this makes sense, minor oscillations were normal but there was a rapid increase in oscillations on the needle culminating in an extreme measurement corresponding to a pressure bump..

The "pressure bump" and extreme oscillations were simultaneous.

There was no time delay between extreme oscillations and pressure bump.

 

[Robert99 37]

15 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Here, Soderlind indicates all three flight crew felt the "pressure bump" THEN checked the Gauge..  found to have a very significant change.

IMO, this makes sense, minor oscillations were normal but there was a rapid increase in oscillations on the needle culminating in an extreme measurement corresponding to a pressure bump..

The "pressure bump" and extreme oscillations were simultaneous.

There was no time delay between extreme oscillations and pressure bump.

 

Note that there were apparently problems determining the exact path of the aircraft from the very beginning.

So, no more pontificating about the validity of the so-called FBI map.

[FLYJACK 654]

30 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Note that there were apparently problems determining the exact path of the aircraft from the very beginning.

So, no more pontificating about the validity of the so-called FBI map.

There was no problem, the initial plotted map had 1 mile error, it was re-evaluated to a  half mile error..

[FLYJACK 654]

In this version, Cooper asked for "small bills"

[FLYJACK 654]

Cossey inspected the two chutes left on the plane..

The date of that inspection is not clear. It is important.

Was it before his description of back chute #226 that was left behind????

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 463]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Was it before his description of back chute #226 that was left behind????

 

Couldn't have been. His first description in the files is from 11-26-71. Chutes weren't sent back to Seattle until 12-6-71. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Couldn't have been. His first description in the files is from 11-26-71. Chutes weren't sent back to Seattle until 12-6-71. 

No, you miss the nuance here.

Before he could have seen them, the chutes left behind were described to Cossey on the 26th, and he described the chute Cooper used..

I am interested in the first detailed description from Cossey of the chute left in the plane, not Cooper's chute.

Did Cossey give a detailed description of #226 before he examined it???

I haven't had time to do a deep look yet.. my hunch is he never described chute #226 before he saw it... 

[olemisscub 463]

36 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, you miss the nuance here.

Before he could have seen them, the chutes left behind were described to Cossey on the 26th, and he described the chute Cooper used..

I am interested in the first detailed description from Cossey of the chute left in the plane, not Cooper's chute.

Did Cossey give a detailed description of #226 before he examined it???

I haven't had time to do a deep look yet.. my hunch is he never described chute #226 before he saw it... 

He doesn't ever provide a detailed description of the museum chute in the files. 

Would be nice to know what's behind this redaction. Whomever is doing the redactions really went overboard. There's no possible way that what is behind that redaction fits into one of the redaction exceptions. Obviously this is Hayden asking about getting his chute back. 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

Cossey doesn't describe the chute left behind directly to the FBI, he does in media and those are in the FBI files.

If Cossey had described the chute left behind before he had seen that would confirm he remembered the chutes he packed for Hayden and his description of the chute Cooper used would have credibility. He didn't.

The smoking gun..

Cossey's story in 2003,, HIS back chutes were taken from Issaquah and used and Cooper used HIS NB6...

 

 

Is Cossey making it up,,, No, Emrich was asked to grab two fronts and two backs from Issaquah but Hayden's two back chutes were acquired and Emrich only sent the fronts..

 

Cossey, had assumed Emrich sent HIS back chutes for Cooper when he was contacted by the FBI and asked to describe the missing chute..

Cossey described HIS chute he believed Cooper used.. Cossey just never corrected the error.

The FBI had the packing card for the chute Cooper used but never figured it out because they were relying on Cossey and his description.

The result is that for over 50 years the FBI was looking for the wrong chute.

The initial description of the chute Cooper used never matched Cossey's description.. Hayden said he never talked to the FBI in the early days.. So, that early description came 3rd hand from somebody who talked to Hayden or somebody who saw the chutes just before they went on the plane.

 

The anomaly is that the early description was 28' and the packing card is a 24'.. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 463]

Yet Cossey consistently describes both backpacks as being military chutes, both in the early FBI files and also in the media in 1971, contrary to his 2003 claim about one of them being a sport rig. 

Additionally, why is the description attributed to Hayden on 11/24 or 11/25  pretty consistent with Cossey's very first description if they are describing two different chutes? Sounds very much like they are describing the same parachute. Yes, I realize Cossey says sage green and Hayden(?) says olive drab. Those colors are similar enough. But they both say it's a green colored military pack with a foam cushion and with a 28 foot white canopy. And it should be remembered that white canopies were actually somewhat rare for surplus canopies at the time, especially for main canopies. Most surplus parachute canopies four colored brown-green types or had orange and white every other panel. 

I believe they are describing the same chute, regardless of Cossey's bullshit from 30 years later. The question is where does the 28-foot come from?

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Yet Cossey consistently describes both backpacks as being military chutes, both in the early FBI files and also in the media in 1971, contrary to his 2003 claim about one of them being a sport rig. 

Additionally, why is the description attributed to Hayden on 11/24 or 11/25  pretty consistent with Cossey's very first description if they are describing two different chutes? Sounds very much like they are describing the same parachute. Yes, I realize Cossey says sage green and Hayden(?) says olive drab. Those colors are similar enough. But they both say it's a green colored military pack with a foam cushion and with a 28 foot white canopy. And it should be remembered that white canopies were actually somewhat rare for surplus canopies at the time, especially for main canopies. Most surplus parachute canopies four colored brown-green types or had orange and white every other panel. 

I believe they are describing the same chute, regardless of Cossey's bullshit from 30 years later. The question is where does the 28-foot come from?

The descriptions are NOT consistent.. Besides the container colour,,,  Cossey also said sage green nylon harness whereas the initial description was tan soft cotton harness.

Hayden denied the initial description.. only two people could claim they would recognize the chutes,, Cossey or Hayden.

Then there is the packing card found.... 

Edited July 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 463]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The descriptions are NOT consistent.. Besides the container colour,,,  Cossey also said sage green nylon harness whereas the initial description was tan soft cotton harness.

Hayden denied the initial description.. only two people could claim they would recognize the chutes,, Cossey or Hayden.

Then there is the packing card found.... 

I think you're splitting hairs. Why would you expect Cossey to precisely remember the harness colors of the shitty old military pack he threw Hayden's canopy into? He no doubt packed hundreds of chutes between May 21st and Nov 24th. The descriptions are pretty damn close when you consider that one of the descriptions is based solely on a six month old memory. 

Also, when you say Hayden "denied" the initial description, it sounds like you're saying he rejected the validity of the description itself, which he did not. I know what you mean but others may not, which is why I’m clarifying that point.

But let's say that initial description was provided by Halstad or someone else at the airport. Regardless of whomever made that initial description, they knew enough about parachutes to provide a better description of a parachute than I'd be able to. The description of the Museum chute provided by this individual is pretty accurate.  So aside from the canopy size being wrong, why are you assuming that the description of Cooper's chute by that same individual is incorrect?

Edited July 30, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

Seriously, Cossey forgot the colour,, he used the colour to eliminate found chutes.

 

You have to take all the evidence into consideration to sort this out..

My conclusion is that Hayden's chute taken by Cooper was the one for that 2nd packing card,, a July, 1960 - 24 ft Steinthal conical #60-9707 in a Pioneer container, likely, olive drab green. This back pack differs greatly from both the early description and Cossey's. So, how do we rationalize this within all the evidence we have..

Hayden said he didn't talk to the FBI at that time about the chutes or anything, the files clearly state he talked to Harrison and then Halsted. Hayden vehemently disagreed with the FBI descriptions.. 

Clearly, the initial descriptions did not come from Hayden... He only bought those chutes to meet a regulatory requirement and never intended to use them.

He has also stated he was told the chutes were military and he hadn't looked inside at the canopies.. 

So, he likely wouldn't have known it was a white flat circular chute..  

That description did not come from Hayden.. if it didn't then it could have only come from Cossey or somebody who handled the chute right before they went on the plane.

We know Cossey was formally interviewed on the 26th.. but his comments infer that he was called after the plane landed in Reno and given the description of the remaining chute. The FBI were trying to call late on the 24th early 25th.. 

For a person handling the chutes to give the info in that early description they would have had to have pulled and read the cards,, but this is unlikely because they didn't note the serial numbers.. if they pulled the cards before the chutes went on the plane they would have the serial numbers.

So, what happened,, that initial description is from Cossey, the olive drab likely from somebody who handled the chutes..

Somebody talked to Cossey on the 24th or very early 25th, he claimed he was the owner of the chutes and his initial descriptions got mistakenly attributed the actual owner Hayden.

That is why both the initial and Cossey's description are noted as 28' not 24'...

The chute Cooper used was that 24' Pioneer #60-9707. That card had to be Hayden's missing chute. The chute Cooper used.

Cossey legitimately believed HIS back chutes from Issaquah were taken, but Hayden's were secured and used Cossey's weren't sent. Cossey didn't know that when he was contacted and gave the description of HIS chute he thought was used..

There is no other way to explain this.. both 28' descriptions came from Cossey except the initial colour. That was the actual colour of Hayden's 2nd chute #60-9707.

 

 

[olemisscub 463]

As you stated, they were TRYING to contact Cossey. They literally give a timestamp for when they talked to Hayden about them: at 2:50 AM. Hell, maybe Hayden doesn't remember giving them the description because they woke him up at 3 in the morning.  Additionally, I'm going to rely on original source documentation as opposed to a forty year old memory. Hayden says he didn't speak to the FBI that night nor during the investigation. We know that is 100% false because the files have him communicating with the FBI on 12-2-71, then on 2-3-72, then on 8-8-73, then again on 8-28-73 where he's even having a discussion with an agent about how the parachutes he gave didn't have D-rings. 

I'm definitely disagreeing with you that Cossey gave this original description. They are similar but not exactly similar. A key distinction for me that this initial description is NOT from Cossey is the term "burp sacks". I asked Meltzer about it and he said he's never heard that term in his life and the ONLY place in the files that this term appears is in that document or later documents repeating what it says verbatim. This is a non-skydiver term (because it came from Hayden) and so it's highly unlikely Cossey used that term and also because he never used it himself in the 302's. Again, I think the descriptions are close, but also far enough apart to where it's two different people describing the same chute. Note that Cossey's description is more technical as well. He's actually describing the type of canopy "flat circular". That initial description is just very basic. 

And I ask again, aside from the canopy size being wrong, why are you assuming that this initial description of Cooper's chute is wrong yet the initial description of the Museum chute is right?  The ONLY discrepancy for us to figure out is why Hayden (and I

[FLYJACK 654]

Nope,,

You have distorted what Hayden said and meant creating a false premise..

Hayden was shown the description of the chutes in the files that was attributed to him.. he responded saying he didn't agree with the descriptions and didn't talk to the FBI.. Essentially, he meant that description did not come from him.. he never meant that he never ever talked to the FBI because he also relayed the story about an FBI agent rudely giving him his chute back..  So, clearly he knew he had talked to the FBI later.. He was referring to the initial contact and that is documented to have been with Harrison and Halsted.

The term "burp sack" is a throwup bag..  Pilots use it, Cossey was also a pilot.

As for the "museum chute" the description is somewhat accurate but they had the chute and it was described to Cossey. They didn't need Cossey for the description, he may not have even given that full description. That chute container is a P2-B-24, Cossey never identified it as such.

Hayden would not know what a flat circular chute was and if it was in his pack vs a conical for the other one.. these are different types of chutes... that has to have come from Cossey. 

So, it isn't just the 28' that is different from the #60-9707 card..

the container colour, the harness colour, the chute type (conical vs flat circular), Steinthal, the size, container type NB6 (26' not 24') and it is also a Pioneer. (Hayden thought they were identical/similar)

Hayden was not a parachute expert, he bought cheap old emergency rigs to meet minimum regulations, he was never going to use them. Hayden's second rig a 24' was likely the same vintage as the museum rig and not an NB-6 container.. 

 

You can't explain away all these differences claiming Hayden misremembered.. that argument doesn't explain the packing card, it still makes no sense. If Hayden said the chute was a 28' when it was actually a 24' that wouldn't change the wildly different description by Cossey.

 

That 24' card belonged to Hayden's second chute, either there was a third backchute involved somehow or my scenario is close to what actually happened.

 

You have basically three descriptions, the initial, Cossey's and the packing card found missing a back chute..

The most reliable is the packing card.. the initial only differs with the size,, Cossey's differs far more... it is incompatible with the packing card.

Edited July 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 463]

24 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The term "burp sack" is a throwup bag..  Pilots use it, Cossey was also a pilot.

 

lol what? A parachute has throw up bags on the back of it? What are you talking about?

Throw "burp sack" into google. There is no such thing as you are describing. 

https://www.google.com/search?q="burp+sack"&oq="burp+sack"&aqs=chrome..69i57.3639j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[georger 194]

36 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Nope,,

You have distorted what Hayden said and meant creating a false premise..

Hayden was shown the description of the chutes in the files that was attributed to him.. he responded saying he didn't agree with the descriptions and didn't talk to the FBI.. Essentially, he meant that description did not come from him.. he never meant that he never ever talked to the FBI because he also relayed the story about an FBI agent rudely giving him his chute back..  So, clearly he knew he had talked to the FBI later.. He was referring to the initial contact and that is documented to have been with Harrison and Halsted NOT the FBI.

The term "burp sack" is a throwup bag..  Pilots use it, Cossey was also a pilot.

My contention is that the initial description came from Cossey mixed with a description from somebody who saw the chutes before they went on the plane. aka the correct colour..

As for the "museum chute" the description is somewhat accurate but they had the chute and it was described to Cossey. They didn't need Cossey for the description, he may not have even given that full description. That chute container is a P2-B-24, Cossey never identified it as such.

Hayden would not know what a flat circular chute was and if it was in his pack vs a conical for the other one.. these are different types of chutes... that has to have come from Cossey. 

So, it isn't just the 28' that is different from the #60-9707 card..

the container colour, the harness colour, the chute type (conical vs flat circular), Steinthal, the size, container type NB6 (26' not 24') and it is also a Pioneer. (Hayden thought they were identical/similar)

Hayden was not a parachute expert, he bought cheap old emergency rigs to meet minimum regulations, he was never going to use them. Hayden's second rig a 24' was likely the same vintage as the museum rig and not an NB-6 container.. 

 

You can't explain away all these differences claiming Hayden misremembered.. that argument doesn't work, it still makes no sense.  You are missing the overall picture. 

That 24' card belonged to Hayden's second chute, either there was a third backchute involved somehow or my scenario is extremely close to what actually happened.

This chute abyss centers on 'what people meant'!  That's a mere keystroke away from calling people liars - which seems to be a strong tendency among a few! Lots of 'seeming' going on! Lots of 'interpretations' going on. Lots of lying and liars going on! ?

If Cossey packed all of the chutes involved ... that could be what he meant when he said all of the chutes were 'his'.

So does that make Cossey a half-liar or just a one-quarter liar?  Between Tuesdays and Wednesdays only ?  But only on Mountain News between 3:00pm and 4:30 am on Tuesdays and Wednesdays ?

It sure has become complicated.  Especially since outsiders are now speaking for insiders now, all the time! I hope I can find my car keys tonight before some outsiders move them!  Before somebody tries to tell the world what my car keys meant !! ??

Edited July 30, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, georger said:

This chute abyss centers on 'what people meant'!  That's a mere keystroke away from calling people liars - which seems to be a strong tendency among a few! Lots of 'seeming' going on! Lots of 'interpretations' going on. Lots of lying and liars going on! ?

If Cossey packed all of the chutes involved ... that could be what he meant when he said all of the chutes were 'his'.

So does that make Cossey a half-liar or just a one-quarter liar?  Between Tuesdays and Wednesdays only ?  But only on Mountain News between 3:00pm and 4:30 am on Tuesdays and Wednesdays ?

It sure has become complicated.  

No, it doesn't, Hayden is actually irrelevant here you are clinging to a strawman..

Bottom line is Cossey's description is completely incompatible with the packing card found..  his later claims that HIS chutes were taken from Issaquah and Emrich's statement about only needing to send the fronts support Cossey's error in believing his chute was taken by Cooper and not Hayden's..

That card is from the chute Cooper took... Cossey was describing his chute he thought Cooper used but didn't.