DB Cooper

[Robert99 28]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Edwards explained the phrase 'shrimp boats'  .... did you not read it and agree?

Are Edwards credentials inferior to yours?  Is his research flawed regarding shrimp boats ?

Has the west path and promotion of it become a 'cult' ?  A cult requiring special  credentials ?

What other proof do you have of a west path?  The money find?  What about the money find  requires a west path ?  Most of the known mechanisms which could place money at Tena Bar require or involve the area of east of V23,  vs west of V23 ? You previously said "water flows down hill". The Columbia flows east to west by Tena Bar. 

 

Georger, contrary to your claim the Columbia River does NOT flow "east to west by Tena Bar".

The Columbia River flows south to north at Tena Bar and for several miles both south and north of Tena Bar.

To be more precise, specifically at Tena Bar the Columbia River actually flows at approximately 002 degrees with respect to True North.

If the airliner was on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections, it would have passed about 1000 feet to the west of Tena Bar and would have flown straight down the Columbia River for several miles.

[Robert99 28]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Shrimp Boats - for R99 avionics expert. Let's add to R99's avionics education!

Dr Edwards explained the term Rat used in one of his articles.

The term Rat used derives from the early years of air traffic control.  Rat was being humorous/sarcastic but he was also serious, in his use of the term ! He was telling controllers to mark his position and he was 1000% serious. See: http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mode-s/atc.html

'The controllers determined if there were any conflicts in route or altitude, and modified the flight plan to ensure safe separation of aircraft. When this was completed, the controllers would issue a clearance to the dispatcher and on to the pilot. The air traffic controllers would then write the flight plan information on a chalkboard and a note card, which was attached to a brass holder - the "shrimp boat". The shrimp boat (brass holder with card) was moved along an airway map to approximate the positions of aircraft in the sky, as the pilot called in his position. If the controller detected a potential conflict, it notified the aircraft of appropriate altitude and route changes through the dispatcher. '

The brass holder with a paper page inserted in it was not a "shrimp boat".  A shrimp boat was something that you may have seen in pictures of the RAF Fighter Command.  The RAF shrimp boats were on a large scale map of Southern England and were moved regularly as the locations of the RAF fighters and German aircraft engaged.

The set-up just described was used to maximize the efficiency of the RAF aircraft and it worked.  The RAF fighters won the Battle of Britian thanks to such command actions and the introduction of radar.

[georger 123]

11 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, contrary to your claim the Columbia River does NOT flow "east to west by Tena Bar".

The Columbia River flows south to north at Tena Bar and for several miles both south and north of Tena Bar.

To be more precise, specifically at Tena Bar the Columbia River actually flows at approximately 002 degrees with respect to True North.

If the airliner was on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections, it would have passed about 1000 feet to the west of Tena Bar and would have flown straight down the Columbia River for several miles.

You are correct.

Edited May 23 by georger

[georger 123]

6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The brass holder with a paper page inserted in it was not a "shrimp boat".  A shrimp boat was something that you may have seen in pictures of the RAF Fighter Command.  The RAF shrimp boats were on a large scale map of Southern England and were moved regularly as the locations of the RAF fighters and German aircraft engaged.

The set-up just described was used to maximize the efficiency of the RAF aircraft and it worked.  The RAF fighters won the Battle of Britian thanks to such command actions and the introduction of radar.

'Radar wasn’t common until 1940 when the British were dealing with German air traffic over London. Before radar—which really didn’t make the ATC scene with great effect until the 1960s—controllers hovered over maps and plotted airliner progress as dispatchers phoned in position reports. Direct pilot-to-center radio communication wasn’t available until 1949.

Controllers tracked aircraft progress with small “shrimp boats” pushed across the map. Each represented an airplane and had a clip holding a slip of paper with the call sign and altitude. Shrimp boats would serve well into the radar age on flat-top radar displays. Before digital data tags, controllers wrote aircraft data on the plastic data tags and gently nudged them across the scope.'   https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/business-military/atc-history/

 

99 why dont you write the difinitive history on the topic. 

[Robert99 28]

1 hour ago, georger said:

'Radar wasn’t common until 1940 when the British were dealing with German air traffic over London. Before radar—which really didn’t make the ATC scene with great effect until the 1960s—controllers hovered over maps and plotted airliner progress as dispatchers phoned in position reports. Direct pilot-to-center radio communication wasn’t available until 1949.

Controllers tracked aircraft progress with small “shrimp boats” pushed across the map. Each represented an airplane and had a clip holding a slip of paper with the call sign and altitude. Shrimp boats would serve well into the radar age on flat-top radar displays. Before digital data tags, controllers wrote aircraft data on the plastic data tags and gently nudged them across the scope.'   https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/business-military/atc-history/

 

99 why dont you write the difinitive history on the topic. 

Georger, both of the links that you have provided have big time problems.  The one above describes "shrimp boats" in the same manner as the RAF model.

You have described "shrimp boats" as being paper cards on something like a name plate fixture as in the last paragraph above.  These cards are actually shown in one of the links you provided.

In neither case is the location of the aircraft written on those cards.

Basically, the term "mark your shrimp boats" doesn't mean anything especially in the 1971 time frame.

If the hijacked airliner was tracking V-23, it could have provided its exact location to the Seattle Center in 10 seconds (I timed it).

[georger 123]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, both of the links that you have provided have big time problems.  The one above describes "shrimp boats" in the same manner as the RAF model.

You have described "shrimp boats" as being paper cards on something like a name plate fixture as in the last paragraph above.  These cards are actually shown in one of the links you provided.

In neither case is the location of the aircraft written on those cards.

Basically, the term "mark your shrimp boats" doesn't mean anything especially in the 1971 time frame.

If the hijacked airliner was tracking V-23, it could have provided its exact location to the Seattle Center in 10 seconds (I timed it).

  ok    

 

Edited May 23 by georger

[olemisscub 236]

FBI responded positively to my FOIA about the hair slide's location and said they'd look for it again. It has a very clear evidentiary tag (PC-H3225), so maybe it somehow ended up in a pile of random miscellaneous evidence at the crime lab or something. Worth a shot. 

[Robert99 28]

11 hours ago, georger said:

  ok    

 

Georger, goggle "FAA Air Traffic Control History" and work your way to the appropriate section that defines and explains how "shrimp boats" were actually used in early air traffic control.  I'm sure you will learn something.

But "shrimp boats" were not used in 1971. 

[georger 123]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, goggle "FAA Air Traffic Control History" and work your way to the appropriate section that defines and explains how "shrimp boats" were actually used in early air traffic control.  I'm sure you will learn something.

But "shrimp boats" were not used in 1971. 

没人在乎！ Méi rén zàihū!

Do you understand now ?

Nobody cares, Robert. Your obsessions are not anyone's concern.

Edited May 23 by georger

[Robert99 28]

1 hour ago, georger said:

没人在乎！ Méi rén zàihū!

Do you understand now ?

Nobody cares, Robert. Your obsessions are not anyone's concern.

Georger, you are the one with the obsession.

[Andrade1812 30]

Maybe Macron can negotiate a peace treaty here...

[georger 123]

6 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

Maybe Macron can negotiate a peace treaty here...

No problem. Hope your insight on the Cooper case is better than this! Roberts problem is years old in case you had not noticed. Nothing I can do about it - I cant change the course of the Columbia River either. Just give it some space. He will stop when he gets tired or finds something/someone else to fixate on. Maybe I will post something to change the subject .... but I am tired of 99's harassment.

Sorry for the problem - beyond my control.  

Have you got any Cooper news to share ?  Been a long time.

Edited May 24 by georger

[georger 123]

Saw an important story on CNN tonight about coupling word text prediction to brain scans, using AI algorithms to predict people's unique speech/thought patterns as a function of brain function and personal identity - like a new type of finger printing! . It struck me a few people might try to use Cooper text to predict Cooper's unique brain scans, ....., leading to his personal identity using AI technology. I can see a History Channel program exploiting this technology. Someone may decide to take this seriously .....  someone like Colbert ?  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/researchers-use-ai-to-decode-words-from-brain-scans-180982097/

Cooper said 'get the show on the road' etc.

For example: we could subject Ammerman to these tests to find out what he was actually thinking and knew as he conducted flight 305 along its flight!  As a clue to where Ammerman 'actually knows' where 305 was when Cooper bailed .........  the possibilities are endless.   We could get all kinds of people to submit to these tests to discover the truth of their claims. Jut typing words in a post or on Facebook could reveal one's brain function leading to truth! The possibilities boggle the mind. 

I would almost predict that someone will attempt to use AI to reformat the DB Cooper case to their advantage. Its just a matter of time. Maybe Flyjack will be first to 'mind print' his subject for criminology ? That would be a first.

Can you guess what the person below was thinking/saying to himself based on these scans ? Given his unique brainprint, who is he? Where is he on Earth right now?

Edited May 24 by georger

[Andrade1812 30]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:26 PM, georger said:

 

Have you got any Cooper news to share ?  Been a long time.

In February of last year I became a father fornthe first time, so I haven't had much time for Mr. Cooper

[georger 123]

Using AI to Fight and Investigate Crime / How Police Use AI

https://mindy-support.com/news-post/using-ai-to-fight-crime-how-police-use-ai/

Just the beginning. The ability of algorithms to process huge amounts of information and do massive amounts of comparative analysis quickly, offers analytical tools previously not available to researchers ... these new tools will make re-evaluation of old evidence in cold cases possible...

In addition to getting at new-better evidence in cold cases, people could quickly sort through the endless claims and theories some people attach to high profile cold cases . . .  that could save years and narrow the focus in some cold cases.

Edited May 26 by georger

[olemisscub 236]

 

[georger 123]

Talked to three retired agents this afternoon who worked 20+ extortion,ransom, and bank robbery cases during their careers - where money was assembled or given by a bank in such cases. In none of these cases were paper bank straps ever involved. Groups of money were always prepared using rubber bands, usually in bundled amounts of $1-2k each. In every case either the banks or the FBI agents recorded the serial numbers of each bill. One of these agents worked on the Cooper case and he says the Cooper money was prepared by Sea First in rubber banded bundles, after recording the serial numbers. No paper straps were used on the Cooper money. He says that Mr. Grinnel was just a "young delivery boy" who never saw the money being prepared and was given a sealed bag and put in a car with two armed guards, and they sped to the airport to deliver the money bag to NWA official Al Lee in order to meet Cooper's deadline. Mr. Grinnel was merely handed a bag of money already prepared, and told to 'go with the guards ...' Grinnel never saw the money - period! Grinnel essentially says the same in his interview with CC. I dont know why anyone would be confused about this?

Why does any of this matter? It matters because we need a forensic starting point ( facts ie. how the money was configured) in order to test theories about how the money got to Tena Bar and how other money evidence is explained. It is the facts that matter vs. people's theories and 'opinions'. We cant even agree on what Grinnel's interview says !    

 

Edited Saturday at 11:56 PM by georger

[olemisscub 236]

Appreciate the leg work, but I again have to question you on this. Has any human being ever referred to rubber bands as “bank type bands”? 

[JAGdb 38]

If only Tina would clear this up .

Maybe she will if that movie ever gets made:

https://deadline.com/2021/11/nod-if-you-understand-amber-sealey-to-direct-thriller-on-db-cooper-hijacking-1234876249/

The title "Nod if you Understand"  is interesting. Did Cooper actually say that to her? Is that in the 302s or any of the known dialogue on record ?    

[olemisscub 236]

23 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

If only Tina would clear this up . 

She already has, unless you think a 22 year old girl from Philly would call rubber bands “bank type bands.”

 

[JAGdb 38]

17 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

She already has, unless you think a 22 year old girl from Philly would call rubber bands “bank type bands.”

 

I agree that probably 99 out of 100 people would use the word "rubber" to describe seeing rubber bands being used to bind a group of bills.

[georger 123]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Appreciate the leg work, but I again have to question you on this. Has any human being ever referred to rubber bands as “bank type bands”? 

I have no idea but, somebody could simply ask Tina and see what she says - what she meant. What is astounding is that no one has asked her what she meant by 'bank type bands' since 1972. Thats a little like failing to ask Einstein: "what does e=mc2 mean" ? Either she saw paper straps or she didn't, if thats what she meant by bank type bands!

'Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the  bundle of money to her. Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.'

How was he able to reach in a pull out 'one package' or 'single bundle' out if the bundles were bank strapped together? Wouldnt he have to unstrap the bundles first ? 

Edited yesterday at 03:33 AM by georger

[georger 123]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

She already has, unless you think a 22 year old girl from Philly would call rubber bands “bank type bands.”

 

Why dont you call her and ask her!

I would in a second if I could!! I would have called her in ???????????????? 2008 ?  1972?

Part of the problem is she uses other words for the money, packages, bundles .... she has never used the word straps which requires paper bank straps.

BTW I do appreciate people responding to this! I wouldnt waste everyone's time if I didnt think there was an issue here - - -

Edited yesterday at 03:45 AM by georger

[Coopericane 37]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

If only Tina would clear this up .

Maybe she will if that movie ever gets made:

https://deadline.com/2021/11/nod-if-you-understand-amber-sealey-to-direct-thriller-on-db-cooper-hijacking-1234876249/

The title "Nod if you Understand"  is interesting. Did Cooper actually say that to her? Is that in the 302s or any of the known dialogue on record ?    

It doesn't seem to be in the 302s. As far as I can tell, the first use of the phrase in relation to NORJAK was the announcement of the movie's title. It might be older than that, though. I wonder if it's from a book or something. It sounds vaguely familiar to me, though I can't really say why.

Edited yesterday at 03:41 AM by Coopericane

[olemisscub 236]

36 minutes ago, georger said:

How was he able to reach in a pull out 'one package' or 'single bundle' out if the bundles were bank strapped together? Wouldnt he have to unstrap the bundles first ? 

It’s not really that complicated. According to Grinnell, who very clearly stated that he was in the bank vault when they counted the money and then placed it in the bag (I’ll take his word over hearsay since he was actually there), it was five paper strapped packets bundled together in bundles of $10,000. So there were 20 of these. You can very easily pull a packet out of a rubber banded bundle. I suspect he handed her one of the packets out of a bundle.