DB Cooper

[Chaucer 103]

Here's the thing to keep in mind: Cooper did not specify civilian or military. He did not specify Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. He did not specify civilian sport. In fact, he seemed to assumed that the rigs would come from McChord AFB. And why not? Any schlub would assume that the Air Force would probably have parachutes. 

I think this underscores Cooper's inexperience with jumping. If he was an Army paratrooper, why not specify Army chutes? Why assume the chutes would come from an Air Force base? Why, when he received them, he made no comment on the quality or condition? 

Again, Cooper sorta knew something about jumping, but he was FAR from experienced, and I don't think being a paratrooper or a jumpmaster would give him the experience to pull off what he did.

Cooper strikes me as a guy who did a couple sport jumps at some obscure DZ in OR or WA and figured he knew enough to pull it off. 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I knew you were right when I thought about that, so see my edit I made. 

The label on the pocket could have prompted him look in the pocket,, but unlikely. He had some experience and would know there was a data card.

but Tina claimed he inspected the chute, he didn't want the instructions, put the chute on easily and used the term front and back chute which is WW2 era plus.. not civilian.

That indicates to me some military experience, not necessarily a static paratrooper, but some other experience.

I remember seeing military cards in the pockets, maybe there weren't called "packing cards"..

[FLYJACK 654]

11 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Here's the thing to keep in mind: Cooper did not specify civilian or military. He did not specify Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. He did not specify civilian sport. In fact, he seemed to assumed that the rigs would come from McChord AFB. And why not? Any schlub would assume that the Air Force would probably have parachutes. 

I think this underscores Cooper's inexperience with jumping. If he was an Army paratrooper, why not specify Army chutes? Why assume the chutes would come from an Air Force base? Why, when he received them, he made no comment on the quality or condition? 

Again, Cooper sorta knew something about jumping, but he was FAR from experienced, and I don't think being a paratrooper or a jumpmaster would give him the experience to pull off what he did.

Cooper strikes me as a guy who did a couple sport jumps at some obscure DZ in OR or WA and figured he knew enough to pull it off. 

I don't think he was a paratrooper.. 

He thought they were coming from McChord because he was given wrong info by Tina..  The pilots gave her bad info..

But, he asked for fronts and backs which is military nomenclature.. and an inexperienced jumper using an old military bailout rig would not reject instructions..  he was familiar and confident using that type of rig.

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 103]

Army paratroopers were static line jumpers not freefall. Two totally different disciplines.

Army paratroopers would never accept USAF bailout chutes. They would have no knowledge of them. 

He seemingly didn't know or didn't care when he was provided with Navy chutes.

When presented with an older chute who would get him on the ground safely or a newer chute that would get him on the ground with a sprained ankle at best, he chose the latter.

Nothing suggests he was US Army paratrooper. In fact, it seems he wasn't anything except a guy with a sliver of sport parachute experience who, in the end, really didn't know what he was doing.

 

[olemisscub 466]

14 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't think he was a paratrooper.. 

 

Yes, was not a paratrooper. He was in the Army Air Corps, US Naval Aviation, or the RCAF during WWII. Not many things I’d bet good money on in this case but that’s one of them.

Literally all of my personal “canonical six” copycats had a background in military aviation. Given Cooper’s age that means WWII military aviation. 

[Chaucer 103]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, was not a paratrooper. He was in the Army Air Corps, US Naval Aviation, or the RCAF during WWII. Not many things I’d bet good money on in this case but that’s one of them.

Literally all of my personal “canonical six” copycats had a background in military aviation. Given Cooper’s age that means WWII military aviation. 

What do you mean by "military aviation"? The first two copycats were in helicopters. Helicopter crews did not use parachutes. 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Chaucer

[olemisscub 466]

Just now, Chaucer said:

What do you mean by "military aviation"? The first two copycats were in helicopters. Helicopter pilots did not use parachutes. 

 

That’s aviation related and while our chopper crews didn’t normally wear parachutes they 100% had training with them. I’ve verified that.

I can put a parachute on every copycat while they were in the military except for Mac and he’s somewhat tricky. I know he has told you and I that he never put on a parachute while in the Navy, but maybe his memory isn’t so good. He had 2,000 hours in the air. He absolutely had put on a parachute in training before. Hell, even at his trial a fellow squadron member testified that they had it.

[JAGdb 71]

Does anyone know what military application would have used a 24 foot canopy ?  I only see that size canopy being used for reserve applications.

From what I can tell, the WW2 C-47 static line paratroopers all used a 28 foot canopy as their main, (T-5 during WW2 and T-4 prior to WW2 ?). Not sure what they used during the Korean War.

I would have to imagine that anyone who has had any jump experience, whether it be military or sport/civilian, would have a basic understanding of the trade off between canopy size and rate of decent right ?  As well as whether you pull/deploy before reaching terminal velocity or after and how the type of chut+canopy used factors into that.  But maybe I am giving too much credit.

For example, if Copper had ZERO prior military jump experience, and instead went to places like Elsinore to train for this maybe making 50 training jumps, wouldn't he be familiar with the factors above ?

Similarly, If he was a military or civilian aviator, and was only familiar with jumping in a bail out scenario, would it be wrong to assume he had this understanding as well ?

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

I think the Chaucer's source was technically correct.. "packing cards" was a civilian thing..

however, military used a "data and inspection card" at least other than paratroopers.. all the bailout rigs have the pocket for it.

They just had a different name... but there was a data card in the chute pocket.

 

The reasons I lean to military experience...

Cooper had aviation knowledge and combined wth his age he was likely in the military back to WW2... Most guys that age were in the military.. and got aviation experience in the military.

In WW2 they used the term front and back chute,,,  not sure when they stopped but that is military terminology,, a civilian jumper would have used mains and reserve.. also, sport jumping was fairly new at that time and they were much younger. There were not really 49 year old civilian jumpers then, 

If Cooper had no military experience and he was given a bailout rig he was unfamiliar with he would have checked the instructions.

So, IMO he had some military parachute training, likely aviation related not a paratrooper, he may have done a civilian jump or two to brush up as his training could have been a while back.

 

Also, I don't think there is necessarily a significant difference in functionality between 24 and 26 foot chutes as people make it out to be,,, The 26 ft container was originally a 24 ft,, and 24 was more common in WW2.. 

Also, chutes of different sizes can have the same descent rate.. Cossey "claimed" he made them the same descent rate. FWW

If, for example Cooper was in WW2 and had a 24' rig,, he wouldn't worry about using it..

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Here is a WW2 inspection card for a seat bailout rig... kept in the chute pocket

https://www.lux-military-antiques.com/en/p/usaaf-an-6510-1-seat-pack-parachute-dated-1942.htm

 

 

and WW2 pilot training chute cards...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384252693681

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

If, for example Cooper was in WW2 and had a 24' rig,, he wouldn't worry about using it..

I'd be totally shocked if WWII Air Crew or pilots actually knew anything about canopy size. 

Found this about RAF training in WWII for a Lancaster bomber crew. "He was ordered to climb on to a five-bar gate and jump off. On hitting the ground, he should count to five before drawing his hand across his chest to simulate pulling the ripcord. This was, he felt, less than adequate preparation for saving his life in an emergency. Nor did he recall at any stage of his service being told how to leave a stricken aircraft."

From a book on the 8th Air Force: "Parachute training for 8th Air Force crews was nothing more than usual instructions on bale out procedure: intercom verbal signals, one steady ring of the emergency bell, or just 'use your own judgement'"

Book about 15th Air Force: "The thought of bailing out also terrified many airmen, to the point where they chose not to think it could happen to them. There was little or no parachute training."

[FLYJACK 654]

Here is a WW2 log book and a "Parachute inspection and drop test card"

[Math of Insects 96]

I have to wonder if maybe that inspection card and log book might have been to WWII-era airmen what, say, elevator inspection cards are to us. How many of us would go looking for one if it weren't posted in front of our eyes? I have to think most people who needed chutes back then, just put them on and never took notice of the hidden bit of cardboard meant primarily for the person doing the inspecting to show that he'd done his job. 

[FLYJACK 654]

25 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I have to wonder if maybe that inspection card and log book might have been to WWII-era airmen what, say, elevator inspection cards are to us. How many of us would go looking for one if it weren't posted in front of our eyes? I have to think most people who needed chutes back then, just put them on and never took notice of the hidden bit of cardboard meant primarily for the person doing the inspecting to show that he'd done his job. 

The chutes had pockets which were labelled...  if you were given a random chute to use imminently it isn't unreasonable to think to check the data and the seal. Checking the seal is part of the training. In Cooper's case he was comparing the two chutes.

The only real differences on the card were age and size..

Maybe he was only checking the packing date..

The 26' returned to Hayden was cotton and had some signs of wear, noted in 1971, maybe that played a role in the selection.

It is all speculation.

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[377 20]

Flyjack wrote: 

“Also, I don't think there is necessarily a significant difference in functionality between 24 and 26 foot chutes as people make it out to be,,, The 26 ft container was originally a 24 ft,, and 24 was more common in WW2.. 

Also, chutes of different sizes can have the same descent rate.. Cossey "claimed" he made them the same descent rate.”

 

As far as I know there was only one 26 ft military canopy and that was the famous 26 ft Navy Conical. It wasn’t the same “flat circular” design as T5 or C9 canopies. It had far better stability and a slower descent rate than the common 24 ft round military canopies. I owe my life to a 26 ft Navy Conical that was my plan B canopy (reserve) back in 1972 when I had a high speed malfunction on my 28 ft C9 main. I did a cutaway and did a soft standup landing under that wonderful reserve.

it’s true that canopies of different sizes can have similar descent rates. But trust me, if you have a choice, you DEFINITELY want to be under a 28 ft C9 or 26 ft Navy Conical rather than a 24 ft military round. The mil surplus 24 ft ripstop reserves used by skydivers were no fun to land especially for heavier jumpers. Certain death or injury? Of course not. Look at all the WW2 aircrew who landed without injury under 24 ft rounds. But they upped the injury risk compared to larger canopies. 

My late friend Paul Spellman was a WW2 P 47 pilot. Retired flying DC 8 airliners. I asked him about parachutes and training. He said he never jumped and had only cursory instruction on how to use his parachute. He said, basically they just told you to get clear of the aircraft and pull the ripcord. He had no idea what size or type canopy was in his military container.  
 

377

Edited July 14, 2023 by 377

[Andrade1812 51]

Just an aside, my coauthor (and father) went to the airborne school at Fort Benning and said he would have felt comfortable performing Cooper's jump with what we thought at the time was an NB6 or 8 with a 26 or 28 foot canopy. While paratroopers jump static, they occasionally have to be ready for a canopy failure and deploy their reserves in freefall.

My father felt that Cooper planned his jump in line with airborne training. I would, of course, love to hear opinions from other military paratroopers from that era.

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The chutes had pockets which were labelled...  if you were given a random chute to use imminently it isn't unreasonable to think to check the data and the seal. Checking the seal is part of the training. In Cooper's case he was comparing the two chutes.

The only real differences on the card were age and size..

Maybe he was only checking the packing date..

The 26' returned to Hayden was cotton and had some signs of wear, noted in 1971, maybe that played a role in the selection.

It is all speculation.

Military parachutes in the post WW2 era had packing slots and cards.  And in all probability the rigger (or loft) kept a separate log of all the parachutes they packed and/or repaired, etc..

Civilian riggers keep a log of the emergency parachutes they pack and my rigger, and skydiving instructor, has my autograph in his logbook.  And suitable refreshments from me accompanied that logbook signing.

I have flown wearing 24-foot seat packs that had packing cards.  I have descended on a 24-foot reserve parachute but landed in some trees and didn't make it all the way to the ground.

I have seen helicopter pilots wearing emergency parachutes under certain circumstances.

I owned and flew a Navy NB-6 with a 26-foot conical canopy until just a few months before the Cooper hijacking.  The Hayden rig at the WSHM has a 28-foot canopy which can be determined by just looking at it.  Since Hayden said both of his parachutes were similar, it can be assumed that Cooper jumped with a 28-foot canopy.

All members of a USA military flight crew would receive instructions on bailing out and parachute descents and landings.  This would be mandatory.  

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, 377 said:

Flyjack wrote: 

“Also, I don't think there is necessarily a significant difference in functionality between 24 and 26 foot chutes as people make it out to be,,, The 26 ft container was originally a 24 ft,, and 24 was more common in WW2.. 

Also, chutes of different sizes can have the same descent rate.. Cossey "claimed" he made them the same descent rate.”

 

As far as I know there was only one 26 ft military canopy and that was the famous 26 ft Navy Conical. It wasn’t the same “flat circular” design as T5 or C9 canopies. It had far better stability and a slower descent rate than the common 24 ft round military canopies. I owe my life to a 26 ft Navy Conical that was my plan B canopy (reserve) back in 1972 when I had a high speed malfunction on my 28 ft C9 main. I cutaway and did a soft standup landing under that wonderful reserve.

it’s true that canopies of different sizes can have similar descent rates. But trust me, if you have a choice, you DEFINITELY want to be under a 28 ft C9 or 26 ft Navy Conical rather than a 24 ft military round. The mil surplus 24 ft ripstop reserves used by skydivers were no fun to land especially for heavier jumpers. Certain death or injury? Of course not. Look at all the WW2 aircrew who landed without injury under 24 ft rounds. But they upped the injury risk compared to larger canopies. 

My late friend Paul Spellman was a WW2 P 47 pilot. Retired flying DC 8 airliners. I asked him about parachutes and training. He said he never jumped and had only cursory instruction on how to use his parachute. He said, basically they just told you to get clear of the aircraft and pull the ripcord. He had no idea what size or type canopy was in his military container.  
 

377

 

If Cooper was on an Aircrew or loadmaster etc.. in WW2 or Korea and had parachute training, even wore a chute.. was familiar with a 24' but never actually bailed...

He would have a different perspective. It wouldn't really matter, the difference between 24 and 26 footer would not be as significant to him as to a very experienced jumper.. 

I think this has to be looked at through the lens of Cooper which is completely different..

I see Cooper as somebody with some military parachute training.. but not a jumper.. he may never have jumped outside of basic training.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Military parachutes in the post WW2 era had packing slots and cards.  And in all probability the rigger (or loft) kept a separate log of all the parachutes they packed and/or repaired, etc..

Civilian riggers keep a log of the emergency parachutes they pack and my rigger, and skydiving instructor, has my autograph in his logbook.  And suitable refreshments from me accompanied that logbook signing.

I have flown wearing 24-foot seat packs that had packing cards.  I have descended on a 24-foot reserve parachute but landed in some trees and didn't make it all the way to the ground.

I have seen helicopter pilots wearing emergency parachutes under certain circumstances.

I owned and flew a Navy NB-6 with a 26-foot conical canopy until just a few months before the Cooper hijacking.  The Hayden rig at the WSHM has a 28-foot canopy which can be determined by just looking at it.  Since Hayden said both of his parachutes were similar, it can be assumed that Cooper jumped with a 28-foot canopy.

All members of a USA military flight crew would receive instructions on bailing out and parachute descents and landings.  This would be mandatory.  

The card for Hayden's chute says 26' and was repacked twice after he got it back,,

That card was originally written by Cossey. May 1971

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

7 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Just an aside, my coauthor (and father) went to the airborne school at Fort Benning and said he would have felt comfortable performing Cooper's jump with what we thought at the time was an NB6 or 8 with a 26 or 28 foot canopy. While paratroopers jump static, they occasionally have to be ready for a canopy failure and deploy their reserves in freefall.

My father felt that Cooper planned his jump in line with airborne training. I would, of course, love to hear opinions from other military paratroopers from that era.

I presume Andrade Senior went through the airborne school training during a summer while he was at the USAFA.

[FLYJACK 654]

Beyond speculation we can't know why he chose one over the other...

The BIG takeaway is that the FBI was looking for the wrong chute based on Cossey's false description..

There were many chutes found and rejected based on Cossey's description, one I think is particularly interesting is one found in the South Fork Lewis a mile from the Heisson store..

[Robert99 37]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The card for Hayden's chute says 26' and was repacked twice after he got it back,,

That card was originally written by Cossey. May 1971

Regardless of what the card says, the canopy is much too large to be a 26-foot conical canopy.

The 26-foot conical canopy had several unique features which included the shroud lines being sewn into the risers rather than being joined by separable links. Also, the shroud lines stopped at the canopy skirt and cloth tapes went over the top of the canopy and joined the shroud lines at the skirt on the opposite side.  

The end result is that the 26-foot conical canopy could be packed in a much smaller volume than the 28-foot canopy.  Presumably, 377 packed his 26-foot reserve in the same container that originally held a 24-foot reserve.

While on this subject, my 26-foot conical canopy's container had a small zipper pocket inside the container, and underneath the packed shroud lines, that could hold small pieces of survival type items.  A tracker could have been placed inside this pocket and the jumper would never have had any idea that it was there.

[Math of Insects 96]

37 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The BIG takeaway is that the FBI was looking for the wrong chute based on Cossey's false description..

There were many chutes found and rejected based on Cossey's description, one I think is particularly interesting is one found in the South Fork Lewis a mile from the Heisson store..

I agree, that's the money shot: It's not impossible his actual chute was found and then rejected/released. Maybe even likely.

Frustrating. 

[olemisscub 466]

46 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Beyond speculation we can't know why he chose one over the other...

The BIG takeaway is that the FBI was looking for the wrong chute based on Cossey's false description..

There were many chutes found and rejected based on Cossey's description, one I think is particularly interesting is one found in the South Fork Lewis a mile from the Heisson store..

I’ve compiled a pdf of all the found parachutes and I didn’t find any that I thought seemed possible. I can’t recall the particular one you are talking about. Post it if you have it handy please.

[olemisscub 466]

8 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I agree, that's the money shot: It's not impossible his actual chute was found and then rejected/released. Maybe even likely.

Frustrating. 

Well it’s not just the ones that made it all their way to the FBI but there were other reports of chutes that weren’t passed along by local law enforcement for being outside of the original DZ i.e. “thanks for the call but the FBI are searching about 10 miles north of here.”

There was one in particular that was spotted by a Vietnam vet who was fishing next to the railroad bridge across from Portland. He and a friend saw a conical white chute snagged on one of the pilings floating in the water. They reported it to Vancouver PD who apparently failed to notify the FBI about it.