DB Cooper

[Chaucer 102]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I was the one that figured the packing cards out and posted it all here a while back... you probably didn't see it.

So, I agree, Cooper checked both cards and put them back in the pocket of the 26' 1957 and used the newer 24'...

You are correct he had some chute knowledge but not an expert..

He probably had some parachute training in the military...

I also believe he tossed the dummy because it appeared tampered with, had no seal or card... he didn't take it with him.

FWW,,  Cossey claimed the two back chutes (28' and 26') had the same descent rate...  I know he is unreliable.

Yes, we all know you figured out the packing cards.

I doubt he had military experience because the US military doesn't use packing cards. They use log books. Also, military paratroopers did not use freefall jumping.

 So, IMO if Cooper knew about packing cards, he learned them from civilian skydiving. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Chaucer

[olemisscub 466]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I know, but maybe the description was second hand.. Hayden talked to Halstad who conveyed the info to the FBI.

Typical for the Vortex.

Yes that’s possible. 
 

Aside from the canopy size being wrong (Cossey’s fault), the majority of the early confusion with the chutes was just the FBI not understanding the nuances of parachutes. They interpreted the luxury pad business to mean that the one he left behind was a civilian rig, which to them meant a skydiving rig (you know this, of course). 
 

The first outright lie I caught Cossey making was to the Seattle Times in 1976 when he claimed that one of the chutes was returned to him and is now a “treasured souvenir”.

It wasn’t until his 2003 interview with parachutist magazine that he started making up the bullshit about it being some tricked out “B-4 sports rig” with a special hard to find rip cord, as if he’d have given such a thing to Hayden.

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Yes, we all know you figured out the packing cards.

I doubt he had military experience because the US military doesn't use packing cards. They use log books. So, if Cooper knew about packing cards, he learned them from civilian skydiving. 

Wouldn't a log book be in the same pocket... So, it doesn't really matter if it was a card or a log that he pulled.

The chute returned to Hayden is an early 1940's P-2-B24... originally a silk 24' chute.

 

[Chaucer 102]

Just now, olemisscub said:

Yes that’s possible. 
 

Aside from the canopy size being wrong (Cossey’s fault), the majority of the early confusion with the chutes was just the FBI not understanding the nuances of parachutes. They interpreted the luxury pad business to mean that the one he left behind was a civilian rig, which to them meant a skydiving rig (you know this, of course). 
 

The first outright lie I caught Cossey making was to the Seattle Times in 1976 when he claimed that one of the chutes was returned to him and is now a “treasured souvenir”.

It wasn’t until his 2003 interview with parachutist magazine that he started making up the bullshit about it being some tricked out “B-4 sports rig” with a special hard to find rip cord, as if he’d have given such a thing to Hayden.

The fatal flaw of the FBI in this case is that they relied on outside sources to guide their investigation. They relied on Cossey for their parachute information, and they relied on the NWA for their drop zone information. 

I can't blame them for their ignorance on either of these issues. They were glorified cops and lawyers. Once couldn't expect them to have knowledge of skydiving, avionics, aviation, and communications.

Unfortunately for the FBI, the folks that they relied on for information ended up being wrong in spectacular ways. 

[Chaucer 102]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Wouldn't a log book be in the same pocket... So, it doesn't really matter if it was a card or a log that he pulled.

The chute returned to Hayden is an early 1940's P-2-B24... originally a silk 24' chute.

 

Nope. A log book was kept on the ground with the jumpmaster. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, Chaucer said:

Nope. A log book was kept on the ground with the jumpmaster. 

Is that universal to all military chutes..

Don't they have info in the chute, in the pocket that says "inspection and packing data".

[CooperNWO305 146]

Couldn’t an argument be made that he wanted to get to the ground as fast as possible?

[Chaucer 102]

I cannot speak for bailout parachutes for the Navy and Air Force, but US Army paratroopers did not have packing cards. They had log books that were filled out and kept on the ground.

[Chaucer 102]

Just now, CooperNWO305 said:

Couldn’t an argument be made that he wanted to get to the ground as fast as possible?

I think this is exactly what he wanted to do. 

That's why he wanted the stairs down ASAP. It allows him to jump early and extend the search area for law enforcement from Seattle to Mexico. 

[FLYJACK 654]

7 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I cannot speak for bailout parachutes for the Navy and Air Force, but US Army paratroopers did not have packing cards. They had log books that were filled out and kept on the ground.

I am sure I have seen packing cards for military chutes,, maybe they used both cards and logs..

It might narrow down Cooper's parachute exposure.. example,, Air Force

Logs makes sense for paratroopers..

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 102]

Feel free to fact-check me. To the best of my knowledge, Army paratroopers did not have packing cards. Either way, Army paratroopers did not use freefall jumps, so Cooper could not have learned freefall jumping unless he was a HALO jumper or a civilian parachutist. 

The FBI investigated both of those groups, so I think Cooper was probably somewhere in the middle: a sport parachutists with a handful of jumps that was not registered with any official organization. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, Chaucer said:

Feel free to fact-check me. To the best of my knowledge, Army paratroopers did not have packing cards. Either way, Army paratroopers did not use freefall jumps, so Cooper could not have learned freefall jumping unless he was a HALO jumper or a civilian parachutist. 

The FBI investigated both of those groups, so I think Cooper was probably somewhere in the middle: a sport parachutists with a handful of jumps that was not registered with any official organization. 

It makes sense for paratroopers to use logs...

I am thinking other than paratroopers used cards in the chute.. Air Force crew or loadmaster etc...

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Couldn’t an argument be made that he wanted to get to the ground as fast as possible?

Maybe, he just checked for a seal and the date.. Both would get him to the ground.

[Chaucer 102]

I can't speak to the existence of packing cards for those groups. 

I will say this. The groups you mentioned, they prayed they never had to use their chutes. Jumping out of an airplane meant failure.

Cooper was a guy who was comfortable jumping intentionally, not because he was forced to. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I can't speak to the existence of packing cards for those groups. 

I will say this. The groups you mentioned, they prayed they never had to use their chutes. Jumping out of an airplane meant failure.

Cooper was a guy who was comfortable jumping intentionally, not because he was forced to. 

Might be helpful to know which groups did use packing cards...  I really have no idea...

[Chaucer 102]

 I will certainly be prepared to be wrong, but I am confident in saying that no military branch used packing cards.

Packing cards were purely a civilian "thing".

[olemisscub 466]

6 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Couldn’t an argument be made that he wanted to get to the ground as fast as possible?

I’m doing a FB live with Mark soon and we’ll be sure to discuss it. He said he wouldn’t jump with a 24 footer for a million dollars. He did give that a caveat and say that he’s older these days and he would have done it for money when he was younger but he said 24 foot canopies are bad news.

I’ve reached out to several of the skydivers on the FB group and they’re all in agreement that he had a high likelihood of injury landing in a 24 footer at night. Mac’s canopy was a 24 foot front reserve and he suffered a pretty major concussion when he landed. He was so concussed that instead of escaping the DZ he crawled under a tree and slept for something like 12 hours. 
 

To your point about getting down faster, I can’t recall the exact calculations but I ran some figures through AI and if you were 200lbs and opened a 24 footer at 10,000 it would take like 8 1/2 mins to come down and with the 26 footer it was like 10 minutes and 15 seconds.

Not sure if those extra two minutes would be worth the risk of injury.

I believe Cooper was a complete novice and chose the pack he jumped with merely because it was newer and for no other reason. He likely didn’t understand the difference in the canopies were that dramatic. 

[olemisscub 466]

I’d make the argument that he may have just happened upon the packing cards while inspecting the chutes for trackers.

Probably more likely that he hung around a DZ on occasion (perhaps as a pilot) and just knew that packing cards were a thing.

Edited July 14, 2023 by olemisscub

[Chaucer 102]

This is a great thought one that had not occurred to me . 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Chaucer

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I’d make the argument that he may have just happened upon the packing cards while inspecting the chutes for trackers.

Probably more likely that he hung around a DZ on occasion (perhaps as a pilot) and just knew that packing cards were a thing.

No way the pockets are too tight and small for a tracker...  and it says "inspection and packing data" right on the pocket. 

I am sure I have seen "packing cards" or" inspection cards" for military chutes... The one returned to Hayden had the pocket for it.

These also have the pockets and what appears to be logs and cards..  something went in those pockets.

http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear7.html

 

This is Haydens chute,, what was the pocket for??  No way a tracker could be in there.

[olemisscub 466]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No way the pockets are too tight and small for a tracker...  and it says "inspection and packing data" right on the pocket. 

I am sure I have seen "packing cards" or" inspection cards" for military chutes... The one returned to Hayden had the pocket for it.

These also have the pockets and what appears to be logs and cards..  something went in those pockets.

http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear7.html

 

This is Haydens chute,, what was the pocket for??  No way a tracker could be in there.

 

How the hell would I, or Cooper, know how big trackers are? Come on. 

And about the "inspection and packing data", maybe that's what Cooper saw while looking for trackers in the folds of the chute, not that Cooper checked in that pocket for a tracker and then suddenly found the packing card. Maybe he was like "oh, inspection and packing data, let me check in here and see what I can find out"

Edited July 14, 2023 by olemisscub

[Chaucer 102]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No way the pockets are too tight and small for a tracker...  and it says "inspection and packing data" right on the pocket. 

I am sure I have seen "packing cards" or" inspection cards" for military chutes... The one returned to Hayden had the pocket for it.

These also have the pockets and what appears to be logs and cards..  something went in those pockets.

http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear7.html

 

This is Haydens chute,, what was the pocket for??  No way a tracker could be in there.

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but in my conversations with military folks, packing cards are a not a thing like they are in civilian sport parachute clubs.

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, olemisscub said:

How the hell would I, or Cooper, know how big trackers are? Come on. 

It is 1971, those pockets fit a small flat piece of cardboard..  nobody would expect a tracker to be in there with an antenna and battery.... silly.

Maybe in the chute..  that is why I think he tossed the dummy, it appeared to be tampered with and no seal,, he may have suspected a tracker...  the other 3 had seals. 

[olemisscub 466]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

It is 1971, those pockets fit a small flat piece of cardboard..  nobody would expect a tracker to be in there with an antenna and battery.... silly.

 

I knew you were right when I thought about that, so see my edit I made. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but in my conversations with military folks, packing cards are a not a thing like they are in civilian sport parachute clubs.

Maybe it is terminology,, obviously military chutes come with pockets that say something like "inspection data"...  and "packing cards" are a civilian term.. IDK