DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Perhaps something was already written in the matchbook. This would have been the ICS-type matchbook and since it ran out of matches, then presumably Cooper had it for at least a day or two prior. Perhaps he had a phone number written somewhere on it or something else written on it that could be traced back to him. Although this would be risky to be handing a matchbook to Tina that may have had something written on it. 

Maybe the matchbook had some identifying feature as well like if it was from a particular location. 

Point is, there were many other things for them to have written on without having to scribble things on a matchbook and it would have been Tina writing the note, not Cooper. She had access to other notepads and things if she wanted to write something. Plus, unless I'm misremembering, I don't believe Tina ever ferried a note to the cockpit. 

Maybe,, for whatever reason I just don't accept the fingerprint excuse.. because there were so many other overlooked potential sources for prints.

[olemisscub 463]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Maybe,, for whatever reason I just don't accept the fingerprint excuse.. because there were so many other overlooked potential sources for prints.

Yes, we're in agreement. He would have touched quite a bit: the railings of the stairs while exiting (and perhaps coming aboard as well), a bunch of things around his seat, his cup, the note he gave to Flo, cigs, bathroom door, his tie, door knob of bathroom, the packing cards, the parachute packs, the interphone, the gear to lower the stairs. Three of the copycats were cognizant enough to wear gloves during their hijackings so presumably Cooper knew the risks of leaving prints as well. 

[SeventyWonderful 18]

Perhaps Cooper wanted the matchbook back to convey a sense of having total control over the situation.

[CooperNWO305 146]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Odd to have written notes on a matchbook. That's an incredibly awkward thing to do. Just write on a magazine or something else. I'm honestly not sure if I believe that. I think that may be an agent reading Rat's statement and conflating things together for that summary because Rat mentions the matchbook and Cooper's notes in back to back sentences. That doesn't appear in any testimony nor does it appear anywhere else in the files. Also, I don't believe Tina ever went to the cockpit once she took Flo's place. What would need to be written on a matchbook? She communicated everything through the interphone. 

Possible it was misread. But that’s exactly how Cary Grant communicated in North by Northwest. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by CooperNWO305

[CooperNWO305 146]

If Cooper’s body was found and there was $6k missing, the flight attendants would be under the microscope, especially Tina. We do know her brother in law shielded her in a way from publicity. If I was 21 and someone handed me a stack of $, maybe I would have taken it, and then you’re hooked. Flo did say Tina had something to hide, which may be case related or may not be. I’m not a psych, but I’ve talked to a number of them, and they say shame and guilt can oftentimes be at the root of some depression/anxiety. I don’t think Fly’s theory is really that whacky. It’s possible. 

[Chaucer 102]

For comparison, there are multiple fingerprints related to the Zodiac Killer case. Most of these were found on letters, including a full palm print. While those prints have been used to eliminate suspects, they have never confirmed one. 

The Zodiac claimed to have used "airplane glue", which most assume to be model plane glue, on his fingertips to prevent leaving prints. However, the Zodiac lied and exaggerated to an extreme degree, so it's likely the airplane glue was a fabrication. 

Frankly, I don't see anything about Cooper that indicates a that level of sophisticated criminality. 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

28 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

If Cooper’s body was found and there was $6k missing, the flight attendants would be under the microscope, especially Tina. We do know her brother in law shielded her in a way from publicity. If I was 21 and someone handed me a stack of $, maybe I would have taken it, and then you’re hooked. Flo did say Tina had something to hide, which may be case related or may not be. I’m not a psych, but I’ve talked to a number of them, and they say shame and guilt can oftentimes be at the root of some depression/anxiety. I don’t think Fly’s theory is really that whacky. It’s possible. 

Another possibility is that Cooper dropped money in a stew's purse.. after refusal,, Remember, Alice went to the back to get her purse..  were all the stew's purses stored in the back near Cooper...

But, it would be discovered later and then it would be harder to explain to the FBI.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

32 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

For comparison, there are multiple fingerprints related to the Zodiac Killer case. Most of these were found on letters, including a full palm print. While those prints have been used to eliminate suspects, they have never confirmed one. 

The Zodiac claimed to have used "airplane glue", which most assume to be model plane glue, on his fingertips to prevent leaving prints. However, the Zodiac lied and exaggerated to an extreme degree, so it's likely the airplane glue was a fabrication. 

Frankly, I don't see anything about Cooper that indicates a that level of sophisticated criminality. 

 

I researched this and some people actually have shallow ridges leaving no prints or very tough to detect,, other ways to temporarily hide prints are chemicals, abrasion or adhesives...

It seems Cooper was not concerned with leaving prints.. and no good ones were found.

Edited July 13, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Some rare wind data,,

From notebook,,, 

Portland Ground wind at 8PM - 270 deg but at 8:30PM - 180 deg,, confirming wind was shifting

Edited July 13, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Math of Insects 95]

45 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

If Cooper’s body was found and there was $6k missing, the flight attendants would be under the microscope, especially Tina. We do know her brother in law shielded her in a way from publicity. If I was 21 and someone handed me a stack of $, maybe I would have taken it, and then you’re hooked. Flo did say Tina had something to hide, which may be case related or may not be. I’m not a psych, but I’ve talked to a number of them, and they say shame and guilt can oftentimes be at the root of some depression/anxiety. I don’t think Fly’s theory is really that whacky. It’s possible. 

Is your argument that the brother in law planted a story in the newspaper as a way of shielding her from publicity? That would be at odds with Flyjack's theory, which is that he intentionally planted the story to get ahead of what they presumed would be the discovery of just "her" amount of money missing from the rest. In his version, it's specifically the publicity they wanted.

It seems that people keep forgetting: we live in the future. We know he's never been found. 100% of those who did this before Cooper had either failed, been caught trying, or been found. In real time they were still tracking a suspect. For all anyone knew they'd have the guy in the back of a van the next week. No story in the Bucks County newspaper would mean a thing if he said, "I gave most of it to my mom and some to the cute stewardess named Tina." This whole theory involves some kind of futurist 3D chess that just isn't really in the realm. It's fun as sci-fi/conspiracy fodder but impossibly far-fetched as a real-world proposal.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

There is controversy about the size of the chute Cooper used,, the one left behind and given to Hayden was a 26' and Cossey claimed the other was a 28',, but the packing card said 24'.. some people said they don't exist in a back only fronts are 24'.. Cossey is unreliable..

So, I looked for and found a Pioneer 24' emergency back chute... they do exist..

[olemisscub 463]

We really don't need Cossey's statements about the chutes. The packing cards say what they say and the 1960 chute being 24 foot wasn't a typo or an error because it was stated twice on separate occasions. That IS what the packing card said for Coop's chute. 

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

We really don't need Cossey's statements about the chutes. The packing cards say what they say and the 1960 chute being 24 foot wasn't a typo or an error because it was stated twice on separate occasions. That IS what the packing card said for Coop's chute. 

I agree, there was a lot of debate in the past in the Vortex about the 24' being accurate... or a typo.. or that a 24' emerg backchute existed..

It is accurate,, IMO..

The FBI was looking for the wrong chute... based on Cossey's description.

 

 

[olemisscub 463]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The FBI was looking for the wrong chute... based on Cossey's description.

 

 

What's intriguing about it is that Hayden also seemed to think it was a 28 footer in the Olive Drab pack. 

I have a theory that I've run by Meltzer and he says it's plausible given how Cossey rolled. So, Hayden bought the canopies at a surplus store (not the packs) and took them to Cossey, who packed them in their backpacks. My theory is that Hayden took Cossey a 26 and 28 footer and Cossey essentially hoarded the 28 footer for himself. Apparently the 28's were a good bit more expensive than 24's.  So Cossey shoves a 24 footer into the pack and never tells Hayden about it. Of course Cossey still told the truth on the packing card (didn't want to risk losing his rigger's license), but Hayden only got those chutes because the Aeronautic Commission was requiring him to do so, meaning that he was probably never going to pay too much attention to them. They were, of course, emergency use only so Cossey figured they'd never be used and that Hayden would never be the wiser. Hayden clearly didn't seem to care about parachutes too much since he wasn't a skydiver and Cossey assumed he'd never check the packing card and notice that it wasn't a 28 in there. And if he ever did catch onto it (and actually cared) then Cossey could just make up some excuse. 

[Chaucer 102]

Olemisscub, despite his SEC education,  has done exhaustive research on this, and it has been discussed at length on the FB group. There is no doubt the canopy Cooper jumped with was 24' which by every measure was the inferior chute. It would appear that Cooper chose the newer chute (1960) over the older chute (1957) with little regard for the canopy. 

This means two things. Cooper probably had enough experience to check the packing cards, but not enough experience to know the difference between a 28' canopy and a 24' canopy which was significant. 

Cooper may not have been  a whuffo, but he certainly wasn't an expert skydiver either. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

What's intriguing about it is that Hayden also seemed to think it was a 28 footer in the Olive Drab pack. 

I have a theory that I've run by Meltzer and he says it's plausible given how Cossey rolled. So, Hayden bought the canopies at a surplus store (not the packs) and took them to Cossey, who packed them in their backpacks. My theory is that Hayden took Cossey a 26 and 28 footer and Cossey essentially hoarded the 28 footer for himself. Apparently the 28's were a good bit more expensive than 24's.  So Cossey shoves a 24 footer into the pack and never tells Hayden about it. Of course Cossey still told the truth on the packing card (didn't want to risk losing his rigger's license), but Hayden only got those chutes because the Aeronautic Commission was requiring him to do so, meaning that he was probably never going to pay too much attention to them. They were, of course, emergency use only so Cossey figured they'd never be used and that Hayden would never be the wiser. Hayden clearly didn't seem to care about parachutes too much since he wasn't a skydiver and Cossey assumed he'd never check the packing card and notice that it wasn't a 28 in there. And if he ever did catch onto it (and actually cared) then Cossey could just make up some excuse. 

The odd thing is Hayden claimed he never talked to the FBI...

[CooperNWO305 146]

24 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Olemisscub, despite his SEC education,  has done exhaustive research on this, and it has been discussed at length on the FB group. There is no doubt the canopy Cooper jumped with was 24' which by every measure was the inferior chute. It would appear that Cooper chose the newer chute (1960) over the older chute (1957) with little regard for the canopy. 

This means two things. Cooper probably had enough experience to check the packing cards, but not enough experience to know the difference between a 28' canopy and a 24' canopy which was significant. 

Cooper may not have been  a whuffo, but he certainly wasn't an expert skydiver either. 

What’s the difference between the two canopies? I’m assuming speed or maneuvering? I’ve been out of touch, but I thought we landed on the chutes being basically very similar. One is newer but smaller canopy. One is slightly older but larger canopy. So to an amateur the differences aren’t much, right? 

[FLYJACK 654]

35 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Olemisscub, despite his SEC education,  has done exhaustive research on this, and it has been discussed at length on the FB group. There is no doubt the canopy Cooper jumped with was 24' which by every measure was the inferior chute. It would appear that Cooper chose the newer chute (1960) over the older chute (1957) with little regard for the canopy. 

This means two things. Cooper probably had enough experience to check the packing cards, but not enough experience to know the difference between a 28' canopy and a 24' canopy which was significant. 

Cooper may not have been  a whuffo, but he certainly wasn't an expert skydiver either. 

I was the one that figured the packing cards out and posted it all here a while back... you probably didn't see it.

So, I agree, Cooper checked both cards and put them back in the pocket of the 26' 1957 and used the newer 24'...

You are correct he had some chute knowledge but not an expert..

He probably had some parachute training in the military...

I also believe he tossed the dummy because it appeared tampered with, had no seal or card... he didn't take it with him.

FWW,,  Cossey claimed the two back chutes (28' and 26') had the same descent rate...  I know he is unreliable.

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 463]

11 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What’s the difference between the two canopies? I’m assuming speed or maneuvering? I’ve been out of touch, but I thought we landed on the chutes being basically very similar. One is newer but smaller canopy. One is slightly older but larger canopy. So to an amateur the differences aren’t much, right? 

24 foot canopies will drop you much faster than a 26 or 28. Meltzer says there is no way he’d jump in a 24 foot. There is a reason they are usually only used for reserves. 
 

What you may be thinking of as far as the chutes being similar is the packs. They were essentially identical except for the coloring. One was OD (Coop’s) and one was tan (in the museum)

Edited July 14, 2023 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 463]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The odd thing is Hayden claimed he never talked to the FBI...

Well he sure as shit talked to them when he was trying to get his chute back.

The real question is where did that packing card go. Was hoping that it might have been in the 1A envelope, but now with the latest vault we know that it’s not in there. 
 

It was probably still in Hayden’s chute when he got it back. Probably shoved it in a drawer somewhere and forgot about it. Lost to history now. 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Well he sure as shit talked to them when he was trying to get his chute back.

The real question is where did that packing card go. Was hoping that it might have been in the 1A envelope, but now with the latest vault we know that it’s not in there. 
 

It was probably still in Hayden’s chute when he got it back. Probably shoved it in a drawer somewhere and forgot about it. Lost to history now. 

He was referring to the initial description in the FBI files.. Bruce showed him and he said he didn't talk to them and didn't agree with the description in the files.

The 1957 packing card went to Hayden.. I assume the museum has it with the chute.

The 1960 packing card must still be with the FBI.. I FOIA'd for the packing cards and any info but got the canned response that anything will be in the FBI vault.

Edited July 14, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Here Cossey claimed the back chutes had the same descent rate.,,

We don't trust Cossey's details but it makes sense that descent rates can be rigged for a given weight, making size less relevant.

[olemisscub 463]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He was referring to the initial description in the FBI files.. Bruce showed him and he said he didn't talk to them and didn't agree with the description in the files.

I don’t believe in conspiracies like uncle Bruce. If Hayden said he didn’t talk to them he’s misremembering. We have the “receipts”, as you like to say. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 463]

fwiw, the difference in a 24 foot conical canopy and a 26 foot conical is 100 square feet of surface area. 24 has 576 square feet and 26 has 676 square feet of surface area. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I don’t believe in conspiracies like uncle Bruce. If Hayden said he didn’t talk to them he’s misremembering. We have the “receipts”, as you like to say. 

I know, but maybe the description was second hand.. Hayden talked to Halstad who conveyed the info to the FBI.

Typical for the Vortex.