DB Cooper

[Robert99 28]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I meant the parachute size or type is irrelevant to advancing the case.

Now, having it checked by a rigger is a big mistake. DO NOT DO IT.

Cooper pulled the card from the pocket and replaced the other card.. His DNA may be on the card or the edges of the pocket..

What should be done is the back chute card and pocket area is sampled for DNA... of course there are other people who have touched those areas. Cossey, Hayden, Reno chute inspector, rigger who repacked it and maybe FBI agents..  Still, probably fewer than the tie and you don't need approval of the FBI.. just the museum.

 

Flyjack, calm down!  There is no need to panic.  How could determining what is actually in that parachute container be a mistake?

[FLYJACK 502]

6 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, calm down!  There is no need to panic.  How could determining what is actually in that parachute container be a mistake?

because you may further contaminate potential DNA....  not hard to understand

[georger 122]

5 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, this is just more of your silliness.  I have never made a claim about WSHM that didn't originate with them.  I am me and they are them.  Or something like that.

On the Western Flight Path "debate", the WFP was developed in 2009 and I really don't remember when I heard of the WSHM but it was probably several years after that.

And I probably have several decades more experience in determining flight paths and redactions than anyone at WSHM.  If I had the unredacted radio transcripts, I would not need any further inputs from the USAF, FBI, or anyone else.

Last week was the 14th anniversary of my logging on to DropZone.  And the late Sluggo was the one who told me where to find it.

I knew Sluggo. He told me he had no idea what you were claiming and the basis of your claims! I asked him about your redactions claim... "It's a mystery to me what he's basing that on. There could be lot of reasons."  Later I asked him what he thought about WSHM's redactions claims vs yours. Wayne replied: "They are different claims, as I read them. WSHM says there could be something else going on ...." 

So play it again Sam. We know your tap-dance by heart.   When you get some real evidence let the world know.  

For the umpteenth time with you, let me QUOTE WSHM on the topic if socalled redactions. WSHM actually says, quote:

Finding no. 1 – In a comparison of entries from both ARINC roll A and roll B, and the public released ATC transcript [2013.5.15.5] between the timestamp entries from 4:45 pm (PST) to 8:24 PM (PST), inclusive, there were found to be eight (8) areas of missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual “blocks” or entries of text, discovered in roll A:

Flight data recorded in the ARINC teletype printouts may possibly be useful in reference to the outbound flight path of NW flight 305, with the focus on timestamp entries from 4:45 PM (PST) to 8:24 PM (PST) deliberately examined for this purpose.

Amen.

You claimed number of 'redactions' far exceeds WSHM's. 

 

Edited March 18 by georger

[Robert99 28]

19 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

because you may further contaminate potential DNA....  not hard to understand

Flyjack, you don't need to touch the packing card to open and inspect the parachute.  So there is no reason for you to panic.  In any event, the packing cards have probably been touched by dozens if not hundreds of unknown people by this time and are worthless as far as DNA goes.

[FLYJACK 502]

1 minute ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, you don't need to touch the packing card to open and inspect the parachute.  So there is no reason for you to panic.  In any event, the packing cards have probably been touched by dozens if not hundreds of unknown people by this time and are worthless as far as DNA goes.

Nope,, you are wrong.

The packing card and the pocket may still have Cooper's DNA...  they were not touched a hundred times. Maybe half a dozen. The card/pocket are similar to the tie except we don't need to go through the FBI.

Opening the chute and checking it is completely irrelevant for this case.

The only relevancy for that chute is the potential DNA..

You have your priorities screwed up.

 

[Robert99 28]

13 hours ago, georger said:

I knew Sluggo. He told me he had no idea what you were claiming and the basis of your claims! I asked him about your redactions claim... "It's a mystery to me what he's basing that on. There could be lot of reasons."  Later I asked him what he thought about WSHM's redactions claims vs yours. Wayne replied: "They are different claims, as I read them. WSHM says there could be something else going on ...." 

So play it again Sam. We know your tap-dance by heart.   When you get some real evidence let the world know.  

For the umpteenth time with you, let me QUOTE WSHM on the topic if socalled redactions. WSHM actually says, quote:

Finding no. 1 – In a comparison of entries from both ARINC roll A and roll B, and the public released ATC transcript [2013.5.15.5] between the timestamp entries from 4:45 pm (PST) to 8:24 PM (PST), inclusive, there were found to be eight (8) areas of missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual “blocks” or entries of text, discovered in roll A:

Flight data recorded in the ARINC teletype printouts may possibly be useful in reference to the outbound flight path of NW flight 305, with the focus on timestamp entries from 4:45 PM (PST) to 8:24 PM (PST) deliberately examined for this purpose.

Amen.

You claimed number of 'redactions' far exceeds WSHM's. 

 

Georger, read the following carefully.

I also knew Sluggo and, in fact, I am the one who provided Sluggo's contact information to you.

Sluggo never made any statements to me similar to the ones you claim he made to you regarding redactions.  I suggest you take a look at Sluggo's site which can be accessed thru Shutter's site.

WSHM personnel did a study of the ARINC (repeat ARINC) transcripts a few years ago when they had access to the George Harrison papers.  They determined that some relevant transcripts were missing.

WSHM personnel provided me with a copy of their study and I have referred to it from time to time.  So the basis for statements about missing or redacted ARINC teletype transcripts is based on the WSHM work product and not on something I did.

The Aeronautical Radio Incorporated (ARINC) company provides subscription services to the airlines.  It is not a US Government organization.

The Air Traffic Control system in the USA is operated by the Federal Government.  The air traffic control radio transcripts of communications with the hijacked airliner have been released in a redacted version.

After examining the ATC transcripts, I noted 19 areas of redactions.  I have explained these redactions repeatedly over the last 14 years and there is no need to repeat the explanations here.

To summarize:

     WSHM personnel determined the missing or redacted portions of the ARINC teletype transcripts.  I did not have anything to do with this.

     I am the one who claims that there are 19 areas of redactions in the ATC radio transcripts.  WSHM did not have anything to do with this.

     Georger attempts to confuse the matter in pursuit of his own agenda.

  

[Robert99 28]

34 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Nope,, you are wrong.

The packing card and the pocket may still have Cooper's DNA...  they were not touched a hundred times. Maybe half a dozen. The card/pocket are similar to the tie except we don't need to go through the FBI.

Opening the chute and checking it is completely irrelevant for this case.

The only relevancy for that chute is the potential DNA..

You have your priorities screwed up.

 

Flyjack, what is your real reason for not wanting anyone to examine the Hayden parachute?  Probably "half a dozen" people had examined the packing cards by the time the FBI got their hands on them the night of the hijacking.

Your own priorities, whatever they are, are screwed up.

[FLYJACK 502]

10 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, what is your real reason for not wanting anyone to examine the Hayden parachute?  Probably "half a dozen" people had examined the packing cards by the time the FBI got their hands on them the night of the hijacking.

Your own priorities, whatever they are, are screwed up.

 

There is no good reason to examine that chute.. 99.9% probability it matches its packing card. It doesn't advance the case in any way.

There is a reason to try for Cooper's DNA on the card and pocket and there wouldn't be many people sticking their hands in the pocket. I bet Cooper's DNA is on the inside edge of the pocket.

Examining the chute is entirely irrelevant for this case and may jeopardize potential DNA, the only value that rig has is the potential DNA..

My priority is to solve the case, what is yours..

 

[georger 122]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, read the following carefully.

I also knew Sluggo and, in fact, I am the one who provided Sluggo's contact information to you.

Sluggo never made any statements to me similar to the ones you claim he made to you regarding redactions.  I suggest you take a look at Sluggo's site which can be accessed thru Shutter's site.

WSHM personnel did a study of the ARINC (repeat ARINC) transcripts a few years ago when they had access to the George Harrison papers.  They determined that some relevant transcripts were missing.

WSHM personnel provided me with a copy of their study and I have referred to it from time to time.  So the basis for statements about missing or redacted ARINC teletype transcripts is based on the WSHM work product and not on something I did.

The Aeronautical Radio Incorporated (ARINC) company provides subscription services to the airlines.  It is not a US Government organization.

The Air Traffic Control system in the USA is operated by the Federal Government.  The air traffic control radio transcripts of communications with the hijacked airliner have been released in a redacted version.

After examining the ATC transcripts, I noted 19 areas of redactions.  I have explained these redactions repeatedly over the last 14 years and there is no need to repeat the explanations here.

To summarize:

     WSHM personnel determined the missing or redacted portions of the ARINC teletype transcripts.  I did not have anything to do with this.

     I am the one who claims that there are 19 areas of redactions in the ATC radio transcripts.  WSHM did not have anything to do with this.

     Georger attempts to confuse the matter in pursuit of his own agenda.

  

REally! ??  Amazing ball  of tripe. But makes good fictional reading. Ive wandered into the wrong bar!

How are Tin Man & Dorothy ?

 WSHM personnel determined the missing or redacted portions of the ARINC teletype transcripts.  I did not have anything to do with this.

I guess that's true. WSHM said as much, but what does that mean? What were their socalled analysts qualifications/backgrounds - we never knew ? So many experts - so little tyme.  

For example, WSHM never clarified how or (whom) was responsible for the Flt Comms Transcript getting into the hands of the Seattle PI to be published?  Is that when the socalled redactions occurred - for the public? We presume the document was passed to the PI by some FBI Agent ? What FBI Agent did the redactions? Who in Seattle was qualified to do that? There is a large missing history according to you. WSHM only says there are 'missing or redacted' passages. You say only 'redactions' ...

We know Carr chose Sluggo as his outlet to the public. Carr didnt redact anything in the documents he conveyed to Wayne.

R99 yours is a full blown conspiracy theory. REDACTIONS INTENTIONAL!  Who did the redactions? Neither you or WSHM has ever addressed that openly!  Edwards says your theory is a misunderstanding, tinged with paranoia! .

xxx: why dint Sluggo endorse your west path theory ?  Explain that or your claim of redactions ?

Edited March 18 by georger

[WalterRaleigh 4]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Nope,, you are wrong.

The packing card and the pocket may still have Cooper's DNA...  they were not touched a hundred times. Maybe half a dozen. The card/pocket are similar to the tie except we don't need to go through the FBI.

Opening the chute and checking it is completely irrelevant for this case.

The only relevancy for that chute is the potential DNA..

You have your priorities screwed up.

 

This is a heck of a good idea! So who is going to contact the museum and advance the ball on this? @olemisscub, are you following this?

[Robert99 28]

4 hours ago, georger said:

REally! ??  Amazing ball  of tripe. But makes good fictional reading. Ive wandered into the wrong bar!

How are Tin Man & Dorothy ?

 WSHM personnel determined the missing or redacted portions of the ARINC teletype transcripts.  I did not have anything to do with this.

I guess that's true. WSHM said as much, but what does that mean? What were their socalled analysts qualifications/backgrounds - we never knew ? So many experts - so little tyme.  

For example, WSHM never clarified how or (whom) was responsible for the Flt Comms Transcript getting into the hands of the Seattle PI to be published?  Is that when the socalled redactions occurred - for the public? We presume the document was passed to the PI by some FBI Agent ? What FBI Agent did the redactions? Who in Seattle was qualified to do that? There is a large missing history according to you. WSHM only says there are 'missing or redacted' passages. You say only 'redactions' ...

We know Carr chose Sluggo as his outlet to the public. Carr didnt redact anything in the documents he conveyed to Wayne.

R99 yours is a full blown conspiracy theory. REDACTIONS INTENTIONAL!  Who did the redactions? Neither you or WSHM has ever addressed that openly!  Edwards says your theory is a misunderstanding, tinged with paranoia! .

xxx: why dint Sluggo endorse your west path theory ?  Explain that or your claim of redactions ?

Basically, the above is just more baloney from Georger.

I have never done a conspiracy theory.  And Dr. Edwards has never said any such thing to me.

Also, I don't remember discussing what is now known as the Western Flight Path with Sluggo and there was no need to do so.  One look at the so-called FBI flight path was all I needed to dismiss it.

The Western Flight Path has been fully explained here on DropZone and Shutter's site over the last 14 years.

Georger, you do not seem able to handle simple facts.  In my opinion, you need professional help.

[FLYJACK 502]

52 minutes ago, WalterRaleigh said:

This is a heck of a good idea! So who is going to contact the museum and advance the ball on this? @olemisscub, are you following this?

Since I am in Canada not much I can do,,, 

It would be easier to test the card/pocket on that chute than getting the tie from the FBI..

I would expect anyone who removed the card to leave DNA on the inside lip of the pocket..

[dudeman17 240]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

There is a reason to try for Cooper's DNA on the card and pocket...  ...the only value that rig has is the potential DNA..

I'll leave it up to you guys to determine what ought or ought not to be done with that rig. But if it were to be tested for DNA, a couple other places to test would be the underside of the shoulder part of the harness, as that is the most apparent and common way of picking it up, and also the pin protector flap on the back of the backpack. Along the edges of that, especially where those five snaps are that hold it closed. If Cooper knew enough to do a full pin check on it, he would have opened and reclosed that.

All of these areas would also have been touched by the rigger that did the two repacks after Hayden got it back.

[georger 122]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Basically, the above is just more baloney from Georger.

I have never done a conspiracy theory.  And Dr. Edwards has never said any such thing to me.

Also, I don't remember discussing what is now known as the Western Flight Path with Sluggo and there was no need to do so.  One look at the so-called FBI flight path was all I needed to dismiss it.

The Western Flight Path has been fully explained here on DropZone and Shutter's site over the last 14 years.

Georger, you do not seem able to handle simple facts.  In my opinion, you need professional help.

Play it again Sam - 14 years and running.  

[georger 122]

6 hours ago, georger said:

Play it again Sam - 14 years and running.    

Wasnt your first version of a west path published by Sluggo on his website?  (Also, I don't remember discussing what is now known as the Western Flight Path with Sluggo and there was no need to do so.)  Strange he would publish it for you but never discuss it with you? Oh well . . ..

In fact, didnt you publish your theory in several versions several times on Wayne's site ?

I should be careful here or you will turn me into a chicken or a pig with your 'psychic' powers .    (I took one look at the FBI flight map and I knew it was wrong.)

 

 

Edited March 19 by georger

[Robert99 28]

6 hours ago, georger said:

 

The only thing I posted on Sluggo's site was done at his request and is still there.  

[georger 122]

5 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The only thing I posted on Sluggo's site was done at his request and is still there.  

I have never posted much about my relationship with Wayne. Sluggo, as he called himself (it was a joke) was a private person in his personal life. He had a strong technical-academic background with a number of technical interests he spent his lifetime developing. He was an employee in the nuclear-security industry with years of training and experience behind him. He was a  private pilot. He also had a deep interest in paleontology and had visited the SUI-ISU field museums to get to know their collections, where he met some of the museum staff members in Iowa. Sluggo was interested in Tom Kaye's appointment and work. The Cooper case was just one small aspect of Wayne's total life and interests. He was totally devoted to his wife and they were a successful team.

Wayne's flight comms 'timeline' and his map collection remain unique contributions in the Cooper case. Wayne was especially proud of his interview of Ralph HImmelsbach! Wayne was able to arrange meetings with Jo Weber during which Jo allowed Wayne to review her boxes of 'Cooper notes', from the thousands of people Jo had talked to by telephone, during her Cooper involvement. 

Wayne had integrity. Wayne was unique - there is no doubt about that! I miss Wayne and his contributions.  [email protected] was a reliable trustworthy person you could count on; based on my long experience with him which  was tested a number of times. !  I miss Wayne.    

Edited March 19 by georger

[olemisscub 232]

I’m hearing that Tom’s scope has been fixed and is up and running.

[georger 122]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I’m hearing that Tom’s scope has been fixed and is up and running.

good news...................................... thanks.

[SeventyWonderful 9]

So "negotiable American currency" always struck me like something that Jack Webb would have said, but Dragnet was off the air by 1971.  However, there was a short lived series called O'Hara: US Treasury that he produced during the fall of 1971.  It starred David Janssen as an undercover ATF agent.

So far none of the episodes that were on before the hijacking use "negotiable American currency" but the episode that aired on October 15 jumps out for other reasons.  It's called Operation:Time-Fuse.

In it Manson Family hippies send a fake bomb to a newspaper editor in an attempt to extort $200k.

The bomb is inside a metal box with the dimensions of an attache case stolen from a construction site.   The bomb is "open circuit" with a bright red battery.  "This one is a dud.  It wouldn't have exploded even if the wiring hadn't been cut...There's no way the electrical circuit could close.  It looks like somebody is trying to scare you...Someone knew what they were doing.  If this is a sample of their work it was first rate."

The package it came in was untraceable.  "We might get fingerprints of that but I doubt it."

James Cagney tough guy dialogue from the bomber comes in over the phone. (Typing this out doesn't do it justice.)  "Please listen carefully.  You received my calling card.  You understand what it means.  Just listen.  You get the message Fuzz.  Don't miss a syllable.  Two hundred thousand.  Complete instrustions later.  In the past I have asked to be heard, now I demand to be heard.  Unless my demands are met a real bomb will explode."

Hollywood hard boiled detective dialogue follows.  "Top priority.  I want you to play it cool.  We don't need to start a panic.  Questions?  Hit the streets."

Discussion from the ATF agent to the newspaper editor about whether he should pay the $200k.  "You're a private citizen. That's a judgement call you're going to have to make for yourself...If you do decide to pay, the money will be under tight control, identifiable by listed serial numbers and never out of sight of Treasury agents."  The editor agrees to "get the money and let [the Treasury Department] list the serial numbers" but is still undecided about paying.  

A composite is made of one of the suspects.  Nobody can identify the suspect from the drawing.  Discussion follows about the witnesses feeling the composite was an "accurate likeness...You can ask a dozen witnesses for a suspect's description, you get a dozen accurate likenesses, all different...even the officers responding to the bomb call couldn't make the picture."

The description for another one of the male suspects was "medium build, about six feet, brown hair."

Anyway, all this went on in the first 10 minutes.  The rest of the show involves David Janssen going undercover to find scope out the Manson Family bombers and recover the stolen dynamite. The Family are threatening to detonate a real bomb if they don't get the $200k dropped off in a wide open crossroad by 3 pm.  There's much discussion about whether the bomb they set if the newspaper editor doesn't pay up is real or just a bluff.  

So if Cooper were watching that would mean he lived near a CBS affiliate and without any kids at home on a Friday night. (The Partridge Family was on opposite on ABC.) His would be the target demographic for the show.  The Dirty Dozen came on that night following the episode in question.  

Anyway, check it out and see what you think. James Doohan has a cameo.   https://youtu.be/qyL76F3eAUY

(As an aside, the Wikipedia entry for the show says that: "according to Brandon Tartikoff, when Fred Silverman was the head of programming at CBS and considering whether or not to renew O'Hara, he met with a representative of the Treasury Department, who told him, "There are those of us down in Washington who like the idea of a weekly prime-time showcase. So if the show gets cancelled, we're gonna do what we've gotta do." Silverman didn't take the Treasury representative seriously, but according to Tartikoff, after the show was cancelled, "about a dozen top CBS executives on both coasts had their income taxes audited the following year.")

[olemisscub 232]

31 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

So "negotiable American currency" always struck me like something that Jack Webb would have said, but Dragnet was off the air by 1971.  However, there was a short lived series called O'Hara: US Treasury that he produced during the fall of 1971.  It starred David Janssen as an undercover ATF agent.

 

Good stuff. Several of the Cooper copycats were referred to by passengers as using phony tough guy expressions like something from a TV show or a movie. 

Here's one such instance:

[georger 122]

Unredacted TTY ?  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k__MfEN6CmaaWPbFjYrphul3F-LHE341

Quote: "any redactions on the FBI teletype are merely references to other flights unrelated to NORJACK. There's no conspiracy! "  (missing or redacted lines someone at WSHM identified have nothing to do with a coverup. Had WSHM dug deeper it would know that! Likewise R99.R99 is disingenuous. )

?

 

Edited March 23 by georger

[Robert99 28]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Unredacted TTY ?  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k__MfEN6CmaaWPbFjYrphul3F-LHE341

Quote: "any redactions on the FBI teletype are merely references to other flights unrelated to NORJACK. There's no conspiracy! "  (missing or redacted lines someone at WSHM identified have nothing to do with a coverup. Had WSHM dug deeper it would know that! Likewise R99.R99 is disingenuous. )

?

 

Georger continues to be disingenuous himself and is apparently unable to comprehend that it is actually the ARINC teletype transcripts that the WSHM examined.  Anyone interested in what the WSHM personnel did should refer to their work product on their study on this matter.

But I don't remember anything in the WSHM study that claimed redactions in individual posts.  Instead, they believed that some entire posts were missing.

If Georger had actually read the ARINC transcripts, he would know that they have always contained unredacted posts related to other aircraft as well as the hijacked airliner.

The main conspiracy and coverup in this entire matter is the one between Georger's ears.

Edited March 23 by Robert99

[olemisscub 232]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Unredacted TTY ?  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k__MfEN6CmaaWPbFjYrphul3F-LHE341

Quote: "any redactions on the FBI teletype are merely references to other flights unrelated to NORJACK. There's no conspiracy! "  (missing or redacted lines someone at WSHM identified have nothing to do with a coverup. Had WSHM dug deeper it would know that! Likewise R99.R99 is disingenuous. )

?

 

We pulled that out of a box at Himmelsbach's grandson's house. Although finding the original letter to Himmy from "Clara" was the highlight of that trip. Would be neat to have that stamp DNA tested at some point. 

[georger 122]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger continues to be disingenuous himself and is apparently unable to comprehend that it is actually the ARINC teletype transcripts that the WSHM examined.  Anyone interested in what the WSHM personnel did should refer to their work product on their study on this matter.

But I don't remember anything in the WSHM study that claimed redactions in individual posts.  Instead, they believed that some entire posts were missing.

If Georger had actually read the ARINC transcripts, he would know that they have always contained unredacted posts related to other aircraft as well as the hijacked airliner.

The main conspiracy and coverup in this entire matter is the one between Georger's ears.

What is the subject of your post?   Georger or WSHM redactions/missing lines ?

As usual you havent told us anything.

 

Edited March 24 by georger