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DB Cooper

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(edited)

One question I have: could the combustion process in these engines actually 'create' some of the strange 'alloys' as well as shapes of some particles found on the Cooper tie which was 'in' the cabin area? It's a wild thought but . . .  the pressures and temps in those engines are formidable.

Edited by georger

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3 minutes ago, georger said:

One question I have: could the combustion process in these engines actually 'create' some of the strange 'alloys' as well as shapes of some particles found on the Cooper tie which was 'in' the cabin area? It's a wild thought but . . .  

yes, I found something on that when I was looking into Ti and Antimony.. I have to look for it again.

The engine blades are Ti...

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10 minutes ago, georger said:

One question I have: could the combustion process in these engines actually 'create' some of the strange 'alloys' as well as shapes of some particles found on the Cooper tie which was 'in' the cabin area? It's a wild thought but . . .  the pressures and temps in those engines are formidable.

We've discussed this with Tom and a couple of metallurgists. Tom says it may account for some residue on the tie but not for the more exotic elements. He says the residue would likely be in the form of carbon soot. The metallurgist said that there would be titanium alloy, stainless, inconel, and nickel in jet exhaust, plus all the fuel particles. He said it would account for some of the bits on the tie, but not all. It's an intriguing development to be sure. 

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1 hour ago, georger said:

One question I have: could the combustion process in these engines actually 'create' some of the strange 'alloys' as well as shapes of some particles found on the Cooper tie which was 'in' the cabin area? It's a wild thought but . . .  the pressures and temps in those engines are formidable.

I may be another of the one-time posters that will fade away after taking a verbal assault, but I am willing to do so if this comment helps the mainstays think outside a very particular box or industry regarding the tie. Has anyone looked at the yellow pages from that era to see if another business may be plausible for creating the tie residues? You may be surprised at how many metal fabrication shops were using these ‘rare’ elements in their processes and production. (see Spokane Yellowpages, 1971, pg510)

1971_YellowPages_spokane_pg510_edits.pdf

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1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

We've discussed this with Tom and a couple of metallurgists. Tom says it may account for some residue on the tie but not for the more exotic elements. He says the residue would likely be in the form of carbon soot. The metallurgist said that there would be titanium alloy, stainless, inconel, and nickel in jet exhaust, plus all the fuel particles. He said it would account for some of the bits on the tie, but not all. It's an intriguing development to be sure. 

It is highly unlikely that any exhaust fumes made it into the cabin area.  It should be remembered that the only time this could have happened is from the time Cooper got the stairs to unlock and lower slightly thru the time of the landing in Reno.

I have seen reports previously that the cabin seats associated with the hijacking were replaced in Seattle and retained as evidence.  So they could not have been the ones that Susan Eckley saw.

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51 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

It is highly unlikely that any exhaust fumes made it into the cabin area.  It should be remembered that the only time this could have happened is from the time Cooper got the stairs to unlock and lower slightly thru the time of the landing in Reno.

I have seen reports previously that the cabin seats associated with the hijacking were replaced in Seattle and retained as evidence.  So they could not have been the ones that Susan Eckley saw.

..

 
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1 hour ago, c99acer said:

I may be another of the one-time posters that will fade away after taking a verbal assault, but I am willing to do so if this comment helps the mainstays think outside a very particular box or industry regarding the tie. Has anyone looked at the yellow pages from that era to see if another business may be plausible for creating the tie residues? You may be surprised at how many metal fabrication shops were using these ‘rare’ elements in their processes and production. (see Spokane Yellowpages, 1971, pg510)

1971_YellowPages_spokane_pg510_edits.pdf 148.68 kB · 1 download

The argument is that Ti was rare,, I don't think it was as rare as people think..

The tie was sold circa1964-65...  it had 7 years to accumulate those particles from many environments..

There are so many particles it is impossible to sort them out.

Some could be from a shop, from the plane, after the plane, from finger print powder, from dentistry, from explosives exposure, from electronics, military etc...  

All I know is the patent being the only source for the TISb is bogus.. it is like finding fried chicken on the tie and claiming it was worn by Colonel Sanders..

I have also looked at a broken sodium lamp,,, or fireworks..

It is impossible to sort out, too many possibilities and environments.

Then, we don't know if Cooper was the person wearing it when the particles were deposited...

 

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(edited)
14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The ad from Look Magazine that Cameron was referring to showed a C-130, not a jet.

 

look.png

jumpp.png

IMO, Cameron was embellishing the entire thing for PR..

Even his walk back was embellished..

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

This data from the patent filed in 1953 about 12 years before the tie existed does not match the TiSb tie particles..

The particles had 6 - 8% Ni... these do not.

In fact, I went through all of the data and there is no match anywhere,, that patent has nothing to do with the TiSb particles on the tie.

Instead of including it excludes the tie particles.

It is just a random coincidence that the Sb is around 17%.

This has been a red herring, the tie particles have no relationship to this 1953 filed patent or the later patent which has no related data.

 

1578189877_ScreenShot2023-04-06at7_06_23AM.png.4b0b7fa971218a2a7687c9d9932aa4e6.png

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)

Larry Finegold 1980... "It's difficult now to separate fact from fantasy," "I'm no longer sure what I saw - and I was trained by the FBI. I think I got a good, solid look at Cooper's face. Now I don't know."

1231911196_ScreenShot2023-04-06at11_48_06AM.png.cf2ce67d01f30469d941e04278d46748.png

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)

Both Vince Petersen and Milton Vordahl advocates use the TiSb patent and Crucible/RemCru connection as the foundation for the argument they were Cooper.. 

Neither patent proves or matches the few TiSb particles found on the tie.. it does not include 6-8% Ni.. it only has a similar Sb%...  a random coincidence.

It actually proves that there is no match and these tie particles have ZERO connection to the patent and ZERO connection to RemCru therefore these suspects have ZERO connection to Cooper. NONE

Completely busted...

Ulis and the Vordahl guys have falsely accused people and undermined the credibility of the Cooper case.... a complete waste of time.

and I warned people about following Ulis, he has a track record of elevating assumptions and conjecture to fact... triple check anything he claims.. and his claims about the patent are 100% false..

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 4/5/2023 at 1:51 PM, Robert99 said:

It is highly unlikely that any exhaust fumes made it into the cabin area.

I'm curious why you would say that. One, there is a crew member saying that indeed it was in there, and as someone who routinely flies in aircraft with open doors or open tailgates, I can say that air from outside does come in.

You are correct in that...

On 4/5/2023 at 1:51 PM, Robert99 said:

...the...  time this could have happened is from the time Cooper got the stairs to unlock and lower slightly thru the time of the landing in Reno.

is precisely the time it would happen. (How long of a time frame was that?)

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(edited)
1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

I'm curious why you would say that. One, there is a crew member saying that indeed it was in there, and as someone who routinely flies in aircraft with open doors or open tailgates, I can say that air from outside does come in.

You are correct in that...

is precisely the time it would happen. (How long of a time frame was that?)

You can calculate the time the door was open with stairs down using Sluggo's time chart, or the PI Transcript.

Not sure when and where the seats were removed but it may have been in Reno? (Eckley doesnt say anything about "seats" in her statement - guess R99 invented that so he could refute it. )

cabin covered w engine soot - IMG_3645.jpeg

Edited by georger
nmnhyuj

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(edited)
7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Both Vince Petersen and Milton Vordahl advocates use the TiSb patent and Crucible/RemCru connection as the foundation for the argument they were Cooper.. 

Neither patent proves or matches the few TiSb particles found on the tie.. it does not include 6-8% Ni.. it only has a similar Sb%...  a random coincidence.

It actually proves that there is no match and these tie particles have ZERO connection to the patent and ZERO connection to RemCru therefore these suspects have ZERO connection to Cooper. NONE

Completely busted...

Ulis and the Vordahl guys have falsely accused people and undermined the credibility of the Cooper case.... a complete waste of time.

and I warned people about following Ulis, he has a track record of elevating assumptions and conjecture to fact... triple check anything he claims.. and his claims about the patent are 100% false..

Has TK stated the TiSb specimen is an alloy? How did he decide? Did someone else decide? Any proof presented by anyone?

Was the TiSb particle buried on the tie in the Spring of the year, or Fall ?

Edited by georger

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(edited)
14 minutes ago, georger said:

Has TK stated the TiSb specimen is an alloy? How did he decide? Did someone else decide? Any proof presented by anyone?

Not that I know of..  but it doesn't matter the tie particles don't match the patents. 

the 1953 patent TiSb alloy doesn't include the 6-8% Ni on the particles...

Edited by FLYJACK
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8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Larry Finegold 1980... "It's difficult now to separate fact from fantasy," "I'm no longer sure what I saw - and I was trained by the FBI. I think I got a good, solid look at Cooper's face. Now I don't know."

1231911196_ScreenShot2023-04-06at11_48_06AM.png.cf2ce67d01f30469d941e04278d46748.png

Interesting. Is this the earliest known account we have from him?

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26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not that I know of..  but it doesn't matter the tie particles don't match the patents. 

the 1953 patent TiSb alloy doesn't include the 6-8% Ni on the particles...

Curious why you think the particle would need to match a final patent exactly? When I'm mixing a cake and have 3 ingredients,  I might mix the first 2 and then add the third one. 
 

Attack it all you want, that’s fine, but it’s ignorant to think the particle would have to be a complete 1 to 1 match. That particle could have gotten on that tie at any part of the creation process. That’s an extremely weak argument for you to be thumping your chest over. 
 

All that matters is that only two places were known to be alloying Ti and high Sb together in the 60’s. You’ve had damn near a year to find someone else who was doing it and obviously you haven’t been able to. Were other people alloying Ti and Sb in the 60’s? Maybe. But maybe not. Only a few people really knew how to alloy Ti with high Sb. It was a very difficult process apparently, which is why no one was doing it. Sn is what they use now with Ti alloys and it’s what they were using then as well. With Sn you get the same benefits you would from Sb, so there was no reason to go through the difficult process of alloying Sb if you could get the same effect with Sn.

Did that particle come from Rem-Cru? Who the hell knows. Did it come from TIMET and land on the tie of a disgruntled janitor when Vordahl was there and was messing around showing some young techs how it was done? Or maybe it came from Sprague? 

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(edited)
44 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Curious why you think the particle would need to match a final patent exactly? When I'm mixing a cake and have 3 ingredients,  I might mix the first 2 and then add the third one. 
 

Attack it all you want, that’s fine, but it’s ignorant to think the particle would have to be a complete 1 to 1 match. That particle could have gotten on that tie at any part of the creation process. That’s an extremely weak argument for you to be thumping your chest over. 
 

All that matters is that only two places were known to be alloying Ti and high Sb together in the 60’s. You’ve had damn near a year to find someone else who was doing it and obviously you haven’t been able to. Were other people alloying Ti and Sb in the 60’s? Maybe. But maybe not. Only a few people really knew how to alloy Ti with high Sb. It was a very difficult process apparently, which is why no one was doing it. Sn is what they use now with Ti alloys and it’s what they were using then as well. With Sn you get the same benefits you would from Sb, so there was no reason to go through the difficult process of alloying Sb if you could get the same effect with Sn.

Did that particle come from Rem-Cru? Who the hell knows. Did it come from TIMET and land on the tie of a disgruntled janitor when Vordahl was there and was messing around showing some young techs how it was done? Or maybe it came from Sprague? 

I am not the ignorant one. You guys have pumped a false narrative. Never trust Ulis.

The early 1953 patent breaks down the compositions, the table for TiSb has various %'s of SB including 17.. remainder Ti...  there is zero mention of the 6-8% Ni in the tie particles.. or the other different trace elements. 

That patent isn't even close. 6-8% Ni is a significant amount and would be mentioned. In other alloys listed they mention Sb as low as 1% and it notes other trace elements with far less.

To not mention 6-8% of Ni confirms that alloy is not the same as the tie particles and you know it is very difficult to prove a negative but we can here.

Then you shift the argument and throw spaghetti at the wall admitting I am right..  all that matters is they were alloying TiSb in the 60's.. it is really difficult and nobody else we know of did.. etc....  the patent was filed 1953, 12-20 years before the tie existed.

Then you walk it all back,, who the hell knows if it came from RemCru.. sure maybe it did, maybe it didn't, nobody knows, you say..

You start out insulting me then end up essentially saying that it doesn't matter anyway..  well it does.

 

Well, we don't know where those particles came from but we know it is unrelated to those patents and that is the premise for linking Petersen and Vordahl to Cooper..  without that you have nothing, just a random guy that ticks a few boxes.

Your argument has been to rule in a metallurgy environment specifically RemCru,, all I can say and have said is that patent is unrelated to those particles based on the facts. Could they have come from a metallurgy environment, maybe, we don't know and will probably never know.

 

979680668_ScreenShot2023-04-06at7_06_23AM.png.e3950aed22fed762241e223da164c1a5.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
30 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Heck no. Feingold gave a lengthy interview after getting off the plane to the assembled media. He didn’t say anything about actually seeing Cooper.

 

A better question would have probably been if this is the earliest known account of him mentioning actually seeing Cooper? 9 years after the hijacking doesn't mean much, but if there's stuff on the record earlier than that...

Edited by Coopericane

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(edited)
1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Curious why you think the particle would need to match a final patent exactly? When I'm mixing a cake and have 3 ingredients,  I might mix the first 2 and then add the third one. 
 

Attack it all you want, that’s fine, but it’s ignorant to think the particle would have to be a complete 1 to 1 match. That particle could have gotten on that tie at any part of the creation process. That’s an extremely weak argument for you to be thumping your chest over. 
 

All that matters is that only two places were known to be alloying Ti and high Sb together in the 60’s. You’ve had damn near a year to find someone else who was doing it and obviously you haven’t been able to. Were other people alloying Ti and Sb in the 60’s? Maybe. But maybe not. Only a few people really knew how to alloy Ti with high Sb. It was a very difficult process apparently, which is why no one was doing it. Sn is what they use now with Ti alloys and it’s what they were using then as well. With Sn you get the same benefits you would from Sb, so there was no reason to go through the difficult process of alloying Sb if you could get the same effect with Sn.

Did that particle come from Rem-Cru? Who the hell knows. Did it come from TIMET and land on the tie of a disgruntled janitor when Vordahl was there and was messing around showing some young techs how it was done? Or maybe it came from Sprague? 

A TiSb particle cannot land on a tie that does not even exist yet at Penny's!  The time frame is constrained ?

I am also concerned if this even is a TiSb alloy?  what type of alloy?  Proof according to ???

I am also concerned about relying on one special particle alone, to hang a whole case on ?  That will never float, except in some Ulis TV docu-drama.

Are we witnessing another Colbert cloned fantasia .

Edited by georger

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On 4/7/2023 at 2:05 AM, georger said:

A TiSb particle cannot land on a tie that does not even exist yet at Penny's!  The time frame is constrained ?

I am also concerned if this even is a TiSb alloy?  what type of alloy?  Proof according to ???

I am also concerned about relying on one special particle alone, to hang a whole case on ?  That will never float, except in some Ulis TV docu-drama.

Are we witnessing another Colbert cloned fantasia .

Yes, the time frame is big issue.. there is no evidence the RemCru TiSb alloy was produced after 1953..  but since the tie particles don't even match the patent there is no evidence to claim the source was even RemCru/Crucible. That means there is no link between Cooper's tie and Vince Petersen or Milton Vordahl.. No link, no suspect..  The 1953 filed patent has the alloys listed and the 1965 patent is a process patent that doesn't show alloy production but only refers tangentially to a wide Sb range..

Ulis grossly exaggerated the patent significance claiming it was "commercial DNA" and those tie particles could have only come from that patent and RemCru... this is completely false.. we know Ulis does this, he has done this for years.

There are only three TiSb (17%) particles on the entire tie that don't even match each other..

The other problem is the seen vs the unseen, we can see patent's, we can't see all the other potential sources of those particles so the bias is toward what we can see.. to argue it must be the patent/RemCru because we can't identify another source is a logical error. The patent with 17% Sb alloy is a coincidence, the rest of the particle elements do not match that 1953 alloy.

Vince Peterson is a terrible Cooper suspect.. everybody knows it,, he doesn't even tick the basic boxes.

Vordahl ticks more boxes but also has ZERO chance of being Cooper. He doesn't fit the Cooper profile and there is no link from the tie to RemCru to Vordahl and at 58 Vordahl was athletic, a competitive tennis player and into organic foods... no way he is a smoker at 58. Without the tie particle connection there is no evidence to support Vordahl being Cooper. He is just another random guy.

Ulis is great salesman but a terrible sleuth.. his recurring exaggerations of evidence undermine the credibility of the case and participants.. he has led people over the cliff again. People keep falling for it and still praise Ulis...  crazy. It only takes a few minutes to figure out the patent does not actually match the tie particles. 

Facts never stop an Ulis narrative, he will deny, obfuscate and keep going... and I hope he does.

Nicky will stick to Vordahl to the bitter end...  is already hedging and will look for a complete exit opportunity at some point. He was brought forward prematurely before a full investigation was completed.

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