DB Cooper

[Math of Insects 95]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

because there would need to be a three way conflation and through time.. or Himm's book had a conflation and years later another independent conflation in the FBI files..

What is the likelihood of two independent conflations years apart..

We have a fraction of the files, we don't know what we don't know..

Anything is possible..  

I don't understand this as an interpretation. Maybe Tina said it to Himmelsbach. Maybe he remembered it incorrectly coming from her. Either way, it would make any suspect who had that trait, much more credible in his eyes, and would be worth mentioning--no matter when that suspect arose or who it was. He would also have said it to others, making someone who matched that trait worth a look by them too. Even if it turned out not to be a reliable data point for any reason, it would still have existed as one for a time, and doesn't seem the slightest bit contrived to me. 

[FLYJACK 654]

 

16 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I don't understand this as an interpretation. Maybe Tina said it to Himmelsbach. Maybe he remembered it incorrectly coming from her. Either way, it would make any suspect who had that trait, much more credible in his eyes, and would be worth mentioning--no matter when that suspect arose or who it was. He would also have said it to others, making someone who matched that trait worth a look by them too. Even if it turned out not to be a reliable data point for any reason, it would still have existed as one for a time, and doesn't seem the slightest bit contrived to me. 

Not exactly sure what your point is..

The argument is that Himmelsbach in his book and in interviews conflated a suspect A (cig stains) with Cooper... possible

and, years later in the FBI files suspect B (cig stains) was also conflated with Cooper...

I find that difficult to imagine... two independent (sig stain) conflations years apart.. 

Anything is possible but it doesn't surprise me that Cooper would have cig stains..

Edited March 31, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

The tie clasp...  

This was discussed years ago but needs a refresh.. the more recent images of the tie have the clip on the left side. But, earlier images show it on the right side. The clip has been removed many times and was put on the wrong side.. In this UV image, based on the particles the clasp was on the right side.

Also, men's shirts have the buttons on the right side, the clip can't hold the tie to the shirt if on the left side, it has to be on the right. So, whether the wearer is right handed or left handed the clip has to be on the right and doesn't indicate the handedness of wearer.

Right side..

[olemisscub 461]

20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Not exactly sure what your point is..

The argument is that Himmelsbach in his book and in interviews conflated a suspect A (cig stains) with Cooper... possible

and, years later in the FBI files suspect B (cig stains) was also conflated with Cooper...

I find that difficult to imagine... two independent (sig stain) conflations years apart.. 

Anything is possible but it doesn't surprise me that Cooper would have cig stains..

My question would be how would Tina have even noticed such a thing? His right hand was in the brief case most of the time. That's a very noticeable trait and if the FBI had that info they would have run with it in 1971 to narrow the search down. 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

My question would be how would Tina have even noticed such a thing? His right hand was in the brief case most of the time. That's a very noticeable trait and if the FBI had that info they would have run with it in 1971 to narrow the search down. 

I don't know, we don't have enough info, we don't even know if it came from Tina. The FBI was withholding info.

It is hard to understand out two independent conflations years apart..

The one in Himm's book, maybe,, but how do we get the other one as well. 

[olemisscub 461]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't know, we don't have enough info, we don't even know if it came from Tina. The FBI was withholding info.

It is hard to understand out two independent conflations years apart..

The one in Himm's book, maybe,, but how do we get the other one as well. 

Seems like a coincidence. 

The FBI withholding info would only be externally, with the public. We now have their internal memos. It would absolutely 100% be in there. It's hard to fathom that not being all over the memos and suspect investigations as a way to weed people out. 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Seems like a coincidence. 

The FBI withholding info would only be externally, with the public. We now have their internal memos. It would absolutely 100% be in there. It's hard to fathom that not being all over the memos and suspect investigations as a way to weed people out. 

We only have a fraction of the files...

[olemisscub 461]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

We only have a fraction of the files...

Not a fraction. About half. Most of what we have remaining is just going to be suspect files. They've already gone through the actual categorized files. 

[FLYJACK 654]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Not a fraction. About half. Most of what we have remaining is just going to be suspect files. They've already gone through the actual categorized files. 

Can't be, I remember Carr, I think it was him, giving an estimate for the volume of the files at the FBI and it was something huge.. I'd have to go find the exact quote but my impression was that what we have is a fraction.. based on volume.

[olemisscub 461]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Can't be, I remember Carr, I think it was him, giving an estimate for the volume of the files at the FBI and it was something huge.. I'd have to go find the exact quote but my impression was that what we have is a fraction.. based on volume.

The original FOIA case says there are around 71,000 pages. 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The original FOIA case says there are around 71,000 pages. 

Original pages?

How do we separate out duplicates..  almost all the file pages we have so far are repeated.. some many times.

[olemisscub 461]

21 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Original pages?

How do we separate out duplicates..  almost all the file pages we have so far are repeated.. some many times.

No idea. All I know is that there have been more than enough pages released to definitively state that "cigarette stains on right hand" is not a hold back. Again, he wasn't "D.B. Cooper" of legend yet. He was just some piece of shit bank robber with a clever modus operandi. They wanted to catch the guy. BADLY. If a physical trait as unique as cigarette stains on his fingers was ever part of his description, then it would have been included from day one. 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

No idea. All I know is that there have been more than enough pages released to definitively state that "cigarette stains on right hand" is not a hold back. Again, he wasn't "D.B. Cooper" of legend yet. He was just some piece of shit bank robber with a clever modus operandi. They wanted to catch the guy. BADLY. If a physical trait as unique as cigarette stains on his fingers was ever part of his description, then it would have been included from day one. 

It is possible but I can't agree that we have all the info necessary to draw that conclusion.. it is always a leap to claim a conclusion based on a negation.. (what we don't have) you need more info, a stronger argument to use negation.

If it was only Himm's book I might agree..  but two independent conflations or coincidences is tough to dismiss.

[FLYJACK 654]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:25 AM, FLYJACK said:

NORJAK was NOT on autopilot.. weigh the evidence. The evidence for auto pilot is very weak, the evidence for manual flying is very strong.

Remember, the plane was flying dirty, it is unlikely they would fly it in autopilot that dirty in a serious HJ situation.

Here is the evidence for auto pilot..

FBI 302's are NOT conclusions they are investigative notes,, here the claim is the plane was on auto pilot for MOST of Washington.. somebody claimed it was autopilot.

This is a summary notation, again claiming the plane was on auto pilot.. it may have come from the above claim.

 

Now, the argument against auto pilot.. 

Rataczak said he was hand flying the plane and he felt the stairs go down. You have to completely discredit Ratazcak or have irrefutable evidence to contradict his claim.

 

at 49.25

Bill Rataczak: “I did fly it and I found out that Jack Waddell was absolutely right when the stairs came down that flight that airplane lowered about 3 to 5 degrees and I was hand flying it at that time you don’t want to see my flight path because it looked like connect the dots, but we weren’t concerned about that because we knew we were in a safe altitude and air traffic control was watching"

 

 

In the video/quote above Rataczak confirms the he felt the hijacker on the stairs by a 3 to 5 degree pitch. Waddell stated it would not be felt on auto pilot but it would be felt if manually flying the plane. Ratazcak did feel it, it was being manually flown.

 

Here, Rataczak levelled off the plane and reduced speed.. that indicates manual flying the plane. 

 

 

Rataczak was hand flying the plane, HE SAID SO..

STOP claiming it was on autopilot.

Bill Rataczak: “I did fly it and I found out that Jack Waddell was absolutely right when the stairs came down that flight that airplane lowered about 3 to 5 degrees and I was hand flying it at that time you don’t want to see my flight path because it looked like connect the dots, but we weren’t concerned about that because we knew we were in a safe altitude and air traffic control was watching"

[Math of Insects 95]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Not exactly sure what your point is..

The argument is that Himmelsbach in his book and in interviews conflated a suspect A (cig stains) with Cooper... possible

and, years later in the FBI files suspect B (cig stains) was also conflated with Cooper...

I find that difficult to imagine... two independent (sig stain) conflations years apart.. 

Anything is possible but it doesn't surprise me that Cooper would have cig stains..

This is a bit of a far-fetched way to describe this. If Himmeslbach thought Tina had said "cigarette stains," then the description of Dan Cooper would have made the purple prose on his ghostwriter's neck stand up, and a later suspect with cigarette-stained fingers would also have raised an eyebrow. Even if Himmy was wrong about where that description came from, him THINKING it was correct would have been enough to make it meaningful if someone else had the same trait. No conflation is necessary for any of this to be true. 

If the fault is the ghostwriter's, Himmelsbach would still have gone forward thinking that part came from Tina, and a later suspect with that trait would still have meant something. 

There's no double-secret time-traveling conflation needed for this make sense.

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Rataczak was hand flying the plane, HE SAID SO..

STOP claiming it was on autopilot.

Bill Rataczak: “I did fly it and I found out that Jack Waddell was absolutely right when the stairs came down that flight that airplane lowered about 3 to 5 degrees and I was hand flying it at that time you don’t want to see my flight path because it looked like connect the dots, but we weren’t concerned about that because we knew we were in a safe altitude and air traffic control was watching"

Flyjack, calm down.  This 3 to 5 degrees of the stairs lowering refers to how they descended under their own weight.  This would hardly be noticeable either in hand flying the aircraft or on autopilot according to the pilots who flew the original Boeing tests on lowering the aft stairs (Lew Wallick and Jack Waddell).  Lew Wallick was the 727 project pilot and made the first flight of the aircraft.

Cooper plus the parachutes and money bag weighted about 225 pounds when he jumped.  And he would have to walk down the stairs to lower them enough so that he could jump through the opening.  When the stairs slammed back into the fuselage, the pressure change in the cockpit was noticed and that meant that Cooper had jumped only one or two seconds earlier.

The time the pressure change was felt in the cockpit is the only relevant matter here.  Autopilot or no autopilot doesn't mean a thing. 

[Coopericane 44]

Speaking of FBI files, here's Part 81: https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-81/view

[FLYJACK 654]

4 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

This is a bit of a far-fetched way to describe this. If Himmeslbach thought Tina had said "cigarette stains," then the description of Dan Cooper would have made the purple prose on his ghostwriter's neck stand up, and a later suspect with cigarette-stained fingers would also have raised an eyebrow. Even if Himmy was wrong about where that description came from, him THINKING it was correct would have been enough to make it meaningful if someone else had the same trait. No conflation is necessary for any of this to be true. 

If the fault is the ghostwriter's, Himmelsbach would still have gone forward thinking that part came from Tina, and a later suspect with that trait would still have meant something. 

There's no double-secret time-traveling conflation needed for this make sense.

I understand the Himmelsbach book on its own.. my point was that,, with it also in the FBI files years later (Cooper w cig stain) when a different suspect is discussed there is a double ninja inverse time travelling conflationary epoch involved for BOTH to be false. The same error twice in a different time and context??

I can almost accept the Himmelsbach book being a conflation.. Himmelsbach also mentioned it in interviews but we have corroboration in the FBI files and that makes it harder to dismiss. Possible but harder.

Edited April 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, calm down.  This 3 to 5 degrees of the stairs lowering refers to how they descended under their own weight.  This would hardly be noticeable either in hand flying the aircraft or on autopilot according to the pilots who flew the original Boeing tests on lowering the aft stairs (Lew Wallick and Jack Waddell).  Lew Wallick was the 727 project pilot and made the first flight of the aircraft.

Cooper plus the parachutes and money bag weighted about 225 pounds when he jumped.  And he would have to walk down the stairs to lower them enough so that he could jump through the opening.  When the stairs slammed back into the fuselage, the pressure change in the cockpit was noticed and that meant that Cooper had jumped only one or two seconds earlier.

The time the pressure change was felt in the cockpit is the only relevant matter here.  Autopilot or no autopilot doesn't mean a thing. 

No, the airplane dipped 3 to 5 degrees.. not the stairs

There are certain people in this case that keep repeating the error that the plane was on autopilot..

Why is it important,, because it was noted that the pilot wouldn't feel Cooper on autopilot,, Rataczak did feel Cooper because he was hand flying the plane. If he felt Cooper he had a better idea where Cooper jumped,, if he didn't feel Cooper and it was on autopilot certain people try to claim Rataczak didn't know and maybe it was turbulence..

By claiming (falsley) that the plane was on autopilot certain people are using that to move the drop zone..

The fact is Rataczak was hand flying the plane and it is very important.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Coopericane said:

Speaking of FBI files, here's Part 81: https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-81/view

Wow, the FBI must be reading this forum I was just talking about these codes and that we needed the other two..

Here they are..

New York Times,, 9999992649?

Seattle Times,, 3245343434

 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 461]

32 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

Speaking of FBI files, here's Part 81: https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-81/view

Ouch. This pic of Petey is one of the only interesting things in it. 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 461]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Wow, the FBI must be reading this forum I was just talking about these codes and that we needed the other two..

 

Wish it were true that they were reading the DZ, but they're just scanning things in order and those letters are in that particular cache that was released in the latest vault. 

[FLYJACK 654]

49 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Wish it were true that they were reading the DZ, but they're just scanning things in order and those letters are in that particular cache that was released in the latest vault. 

There are no coincidences..

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No, the airplane dipped 3 to 5 degrees.. not the stairs

There are certain people in this case that keep repeating the error that the plane was on autopilot..

Why is it important,, because it was noted that the pilot wouldn't feel Cooper on autopilot,, Rataczak did feel Cooper because he was hand flying the plane. If he felt Cooper he had a better idea where Cooper jumped,, if he didn't feel Cooper and it was on autopilot certain people try to claim Rataczak didn't know and maybe it was turbulence..

By claiming (falsley) that the plane was on autopilot certain people are using that to move the drop zone..

The fact is Rataczak was hand flying the plane and it is very important.

 

First, I need to correct the "3 to 5 degrees" to "8 to 10 degrees" rotation from the hinge point of the aft stairs according to Dr. Edwards' post on his blog today.

I don't know the exact length of the stairs from the hinge point to their tip but it is unlikely that the tip of the free fall stairs were ever more than two feet from the fuselage due to the wind.  Only when Cooper was on the stairs would the tip go down enough for him to have room to jump.

And again, the "oscillations" don't mean anything.  The jump time was a second or two before the cockpit crew felt the change in air pressure and saw it on the flight engineer's panel.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Witnesses said Cooper's hair was dark, greasy possibly dyed....

There was Men's hair dye circa Norjak..

One example from 1967.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by FLYJACK