DB Cooper

[georger 197]

34 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Gunther says that Cooper went to an air show that had skydivers in it while in LA. One of the skydivers was the brother of his girlfriend. The guy then let Cooper do a free fall skydive. Cooper then eventually asks a pilot friend about jumping from a jet. The pilot says you could drill a hole through the floor of the plane or something like that.
 

I’m not sure how all that was conflated into being the Elsinore Ghost story.  

Any FBI files on this Elsinore 'suspect'  proving this was not just Gunther's story?   There should be documentation.

Edited March 28, 2023 by georger

[georger 197]

22 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, some have used that to claim Gunther had info from the real Cooper and he was the Elsinore suspect...

I don't agree. Gunther never mentioned Elsinore, he had info from Himmelsbach and most likely some FBI files.. 

IMO, Elsinore was an embellishment by Lyle Cameron who was an FBI informant,,, Lyle later walked back his claims.

• 1985: Max Gunther publishes his book entitled “D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened.” In the book the man claiming to be D.B. Cooper describes a visit to a skydive center near Los Angeles in 1971.
• 2017:  FBI documents regarding the hijacker’s visit to Elsinore Skydive Center are released.  Somehow Max Gunther wrote about this event 12 years before the FBI files were released.  Either Max had an inside source, or he was in fact talking to the same man who visited Elsinore in 1971.

Prove he got this from Himmelsbach! You cant. Nobody can. You may have an 'opinion' but your opinion is not fact! Can you prove your opinion? Why should your opinion count any more than anyone else's opinion ? 

Can you provide the FBI files which mention a specific suspect at Elsinore, that connects with Gunther's suspect, if one even existed ?    

Your opinion/conjecture is not fact.

Likewise are we safe in assuming that your suspect is not Gunther's suspect? You suspect peddlers seldom agree on anything!  No small wonder yours would be a different "opinion".    Opinions/claims vs opinions/claim . 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

33 minutes ago, georger said:

Any FBI files on this Elsinore 'suspect'  proving this was not just Gunther's story?   There should be documentation.

A ton of 302’s about it. The Elsinore suspect was taken very seriously by the Feds. 

[FLYJACK 654]

53 minutes ago, georger said:

• 1985: Max Gunther publishes his book entitled “D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened.” In the book the man claiming to be D.B. Cooper describes a visit to a skydive center near Los Angeles in 1971.
• 2017:  FBI documents regarding the hijacker’s visit to Elsinore Skydive Center are released.  Somehow Max Gunther wrote about this event 12 years before the FBI files were released.  Either Max had an inside source, or he was in fact talking to the same man who visited Elsinore in 1971.

Prove he got this from Himmelsbach! You cant. Nobody can. You may have an 'opinion' but your opinion is not fact! Can you prove your opinion? Why should your opinion count any more than anyone else's opinion ? 

Can you provide the FBI files which mention a specific suspect at Elsinore, that connects with Gunther's suspect, if one even existed ?    

Your opinion/conjecture is not fact.

Likewise are we safe in assuming that your suspect is not Gunther's suspect? You suspect peddlers seldom agree on anything!  No small wonder yours would be a different "opinion".    Opinions/claims vs opinions/claim . 

 

I didn't say he got Elsinore specifically from Himmelsbach. He got case info from Himmelsbach.. that is a fact. 

Some use Elsinore as proof Gunther got it from Cooper because he had no other way of knowing.. just as you posted... my counter point is that Gunther got case info from Himmelsbach and probably FOIA's... There is a reference to an author doing FOIA's for a book in the FBI files.. So, the Gunther Elsinore claim is bogus, he could have obtained that info before the book was published. Try to keep it straight you have this all screwed up already,, you are now arguing that Gunther did communicate with Cooper/associate.

There is lots on Elsinore in FBI files...  it has been discussed and posted.. I am not interested in doing your homework for you.

Edited March 28, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

22 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I didn't say he got Elsinore specifically from Himmelsbach. He got case info from Himmelsbach.. that is a fact. 

Wasn’t much info apparently. His narrative of the actual hijacking is really inaccurate. He has Scott coming back and sitting next to Cooper.

[FLYJACK 654]

10 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Wasn’t much info apparently. His narrative of the actual hijacking is really inaccurate. He has Scott coming back and sitting next to Cooper.

Yes, he got some things right and lots wrong....  but the info in the narrative was via Clara not "Cooper"...

So, the info wasn't first hand.. 

because of that nothing can be checked.. was Clara making up a story or was Gunther or both?? No way to know..

 

The only conclusion I have is that Gunther was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper..  either a hoaxer or the real Cooper,, 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Coopericane 44]

Are there any 302s where the pilot(s) describe Cooper's voice? Which specific members of the flight crew communicated with him over the intercom?

[FLYJACK 654]

54 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

Are there any 302s where the pilot(s) describe Cooper's voice? Which specific members of the flight crew communicated with him over the intercom?

Low voice.. is mentioned during a conversation with Tina,, Rataczak said everything was relayed via Tina except when Cooper said he couldn't get stairs down.. no voice info from the pilots

 

They did have the stews listen to a radio caller's voice..

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

13 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Low voice.. is mentioned during a conversation with stews,,

 

They did have the stews listen to a radio caller's voice..

 

I believe it was actually the voice of a 20 year old or something and was so obviously not Cooper, but they made them listen anyways. 

[georger 197]

What was the date of the release of the flight comms to the public?  Am I safe in assuming Gunther never had access to them ?  Likewise, Mr Cooper or the Alias who allegedly wrote Gunther ?  Does Gunther mention Cooper saying he had a grudge ?

Gunther's socalled letter from Cooper states clearly why the writer is contacting Gunther, and the reason why he hijacked flight 305, as follows:

I want to tell my story, particularly why I did what I did. It is important to me. The recent death of another man who tried the same foolish stunt makes me unhappy. But, principally, I want to tell  the story of what happens to a middle aged man in this society today, and how the trap of marriage and money can close in on him, until he must take a risk to escape. The middle aged and middle income men are the forgotten men of our time. This is what I must tell, partly to make amends for what I did, and to also make the world think about we forgotten men.

I am writing to you because an article by you, in True Magazine in 1962, impressed me deeply. It was a “Do It Yourself Divorce for Fed-Up Males”, in which you described the problem of disappearing. This extraordinary article was the start of my long journey. It started me thinking and showed me what the problems would be, particularly the problem of documents. More recently, I saw another article by you, on the same subject in a woman’s magazine, and I believe you have a feeling for this subject and  will be sympathetic to me.

. . . . .

According to Gunther's account, DB Cooper hijacked flight 305 as a protest against middle aged male oppression.  A subject Gunther had written about previously on two occasions. 'Cooper' thinks Gunther will be sympathetic to his 'cause'.

Does any of this comport with the portrait of Cooper given by the stews or the flight comms Transcript?  According to his letter 'Alias' has been brooding about male oppression since Gunther's article on the issue clear back in 1962! By 1971 'Alias' decides to hijack a 727 to highlight his 'social concern'. Now he is writing Gunther to explain and 'make amends' !   

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by georger

[Coopericane 44]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Gunther says that Cooper went to an air show that had skydivers in it while in LA. One of the skydivers was the brother of his girlfriend. The guy then let Cooper do a free fall skydive. Cooper then eventually asks a pilot friend about jumping from a jet. The pilot says you could drill a hole through the floor of the plane or something like that.
 

I’m not sure how all that was conflated into being the Elsinore Ghost story.  

So originally, I thought the logic was that Elsinore was the only parachuting center at the time near LA, so it must have been the same place that Leclair visited. But the book doesn't actually even describe the place Leclair visited as a parachuting center, it's instead defined as an "airfield". So perhaps we should instead be looking into parachuting events in the LA area in 1971 that featured free-falling and target jumping, as described in Gunther's book? Maybe someone was in the right place at the right time and could verify parts of the story.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Coopericane

[FLYJACK 654]

9 hours ago, georger said:

What was the date of the release of the flight comms to the public?  Am I safe in assuming Gunther never had access to them ?  Likewise, Mr Cooper or the Alias who allegedly wrote Gunther ?  Does Gunther mention Cooper saying he had a grudge ?

Gunther's socalled letter from Cooper states clearly why the writer is contacting Gunther, and the reason why he hijacked flight 305, as follows:

I want to tell my story, particularly why I did what I did. It is important to me. The recent death of another man who tried the same foolish stunt makes me unhappy. But, principally, I want to tell  the story of what happens to a middle aged man in this society today, and how the trap of marriage and money can close in on him, until he must take a risk to escape. The middle aged and middle income men are the forgotten men of our time. This is what I must tell, partly to make amends for what I did, and to also make the world think about we forgotten men.

I am writing to you because an article by you, in True Magazine in 1962, impressed me deeply. It was a “Do It Yourself Divorce for Fed-Up Males”, in which you described the problem of disappearing. This extraordinary article was the start of my long journey. It started me thinking and showed me what the problems would be, particularly the problem of documents. More recently, I saw another article by you, on the same subject in a woman’s magazine, and I believe you have a feeling for this subject and  will be sympathetic to me.

. . . . .

According to Gunther's account, DB Cooper hijacked flight 305 as a protest against middle aged male oppression.  A subject Gunther had written about previously on two occasions. 'Cooper' thinks Gunther will be sympathetic to his 'cause'.

Does any of this comport with the portrait of Cooper given by the stews or the flight comms Transcript?  According to his letter 'Alias' has been brooding about male oppression since Gunther's article on the issue clear back in 1962! By 1971 'Alias' decides to hijack a 727 to highlight his 'social concern'. Now he is writing Gunther to explain and 'make amends' !   

 

 

That was "Cooper's" first contact letter,, the "Cooper" later stated that he wrote it to get Gunther's attention and he really just wanted money.

Maybe you should read the book.

[FLYJACK 654]

6 hours ago, Coopericane said:

So originally, I thought the logic was that Elsinore was the only parachuting center at the time near LA, so it must have been the same place that Leclair visited. But the book doesn't actually even describe the place Leclair visited as a parachuting center, it's instead defined as an "airfield". So perhaps we should instead be looking into parachuting events in the LA area in 1971 that featured free-falling and target jumping, as described in Gunther's book? Maybe someone was in the right place at the right time and could verify parts of the story.

That is true,,, Gunther could have added it as a coincidence to give Cooper parachute experience or possibly he read about Elsinore in info from Himmelsbach or a FOIA..

But it would have also required the Elsinore suspect to be Cooper...  

Lyle Cameron walked back his claims and there is no evidence Cooper was at Elsinore.
 

Lyle's big walk back.... "may be coincidental"

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That was "Cooper's" first contact letter,, the "Cooper" later stated that he wrote it to get Gunther's attention and he really just wanted money.

Maybe you should read the book.

Or, I could just look for a Cooper that doesn't need gender affirming treatment and doesn't contact book writers. We know Cooper had conversations with the supportive ear 'Tina'.No hint he discussed male social oppression with her. ?

All of this is easily deflected. Just an introductory letter. Easily dismissed as just a 'first contact' further illuminated by future events and letters. All very fluid. Means nothing and can mean anything. Like Cooper forums - could take years for people to explain what is really on their minds! Dismiss the first letter - doesnt mean 'anything' but could mean 'everything' ? Only further reading will clarify !  Rattlesnake or fat rubber hose with a mouse inside wiggling ?          

Gunther's intro Cooper letter strikes as being one inch away from Cooper saying he is the victim of a witch hunt. How perfectly timely and modern! Cooper hijacked a commercial jet liner to escape male menopause!

Edited March 29, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

12 minutes ago, georger said:

Or, I could just look for a Cooper that doesn't need gender affirming treatment and doesn't contact book writers.

How's that working for you so far...

The intro letter was just bait to get Gunther interested,, the person claiming to be Cooper wanted money, that was explained in the book.

If the real Cooper lost the money in the jump he would have the motive to try to sell his story...If the real Cooper didn't lose the money, it is unlikely he would contact Gunther or anyone for money.

[Coopericane 44]

A description of Cooper having "cigarette stains on his right hand" appears repeatedly in the FBI files. However I can't find any documents tying this detail to any particular witness. I assume it probably came from Tina, but does anyone know for certain/know where the 302s say so?

[FLYJACK 654]

18 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

A description of Cooper having "cigarette stains on his right hand" appears repeatedly in the FBI files. However I can't find any documents tying this detail to any particular witness. I assume it probably came from Tina, but does anyone know for certain/know where the 302s say so?

No further info on that...  Himmelsbach has also mentioned it in his book, not clear where he got it from.

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, Coopericane said:

A description of Cooper having "cigarette stains on his right hand" appears repeatedly in the FBI files. However I can't find any documents tying this detail to any particular witness. I assume it probably came from Tina, but does anyone know for certain/know where the 302s say so?

In Himmy's book NORJAK, he describes receiving a call from a woman wanting to speak with him about a suspect. It is my belief that three things within her description have somehow been absorbed into the Cooper narrative. Cig stains, terrible language, and "piercing" brown eyes are all things that Himmelsbach brought up about Cooper quite often. Yet all three have no prior provenance in the FBI files prior to the book being published. So I think this woman's description was conflated, perhaps inadvertently, into Himmy's description of Cooper. 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

38 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

In Himmy's book NORJAK, he describes receiving a call from a woman wanting to speak with him about a suspect. It is my belief that three things within her description have somehow been absorbed into the Cooper narrative. Cig stains, terrible language, and "piercing" brown eyes are all things that Himmelsbach brought up about Cooper quite often. Yet all three have no prior provenance in the FBI files prior to the book being published. So I think this woman's description was conflated, perhaps inadvertently, into Himmy's description of Cooper. 

 

Possible, but there is a problem with that...

The FBI files were referring to a Merlin Gene Cooper from back east when the cig stains on Cooper's right hand are mentioned... (stains on fingers for Merlin Gene Cooper)

The suspect the woman described in Himmelsbach book was in the PNW named Dan Cooper..  they don't appear to be the same person.

 

[Math of Insects 96]

Himmelsbach's book was written by Thomas K. Worcester. It would have come after a series of interviews or conversations between the two men, along with Worcester reading through and summarizing a bunch of data/files/notes that Himmelsbach might have had, but that Himmy himself might never have read again after seeing them in real time. It's not at all impossible that Worcester just conflated those two reports and Himmy never noticed, or hadn't even reread the files that led to them himself and just believed Worcester's summary of it. The latter case would also account for Himmy later saying the same thing himself--he would just have assumed that Worcester's recounting of the facts from the files was correct, particularly since he did hear that description from somewhere.

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Himmelsbach's book was written by Thomas K. Worcester. It would have come after a series of interviews or conversations between the two men, along with Worcester reading through and summarizing a bunch of data/files/notes that Himmelsbach might have had, but that Himmy himself might never have read again after seeing them in real time. It's not at all impossible that Worcester just conflated those two reports and Himmy never noticed, or hadn't even reread the files that led to them himself and just believed Worcester's summary of it. The latter case would also account for Himmy later saying the same thing himself--he would just have assumed that Worcester's recounting of the facts from the files was correct, particularly since he did hear that description from somewhere.

but it is also written in the FBI files regarding a seemingly different suspect... after the book came out. 

So, conflation doesn't make sense unless it was a ninja double conflation through time and space.

[JAGdb 69]

Trying to follow this, bear with me.

Assertion 1:  Nothing about nicotine stained fingers appear in any of the released 302s (Is this correct?)

Assertion 2: The only comment about nicotine stained fingers comes from RH's source material for his book Norjak.  A woman reached out to RH and relayed the story about a suspect named Dan Cooper, not necessarily "the Dan Cooper", just a person she suspected who happened to have that name.  (Why wouldn't RH have put this in a 302 ?  Or did he and that 302 was not released yet?)

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Trying to follow this, bear with me.

Assertion 1:  Nothing about nicotine stained fingers appear in any of the released 302s (Is this correct?)

Assertion 2: The only comment about nicotine stained fingers comes from RH's source material for his book Norjak.  A woman reached out to RH and relayed the story about a suspect named Dan Cooper, not necessarily "the Dan Cooper", just a person she suspected who happened to have that name.  (Why wouldn't RH have put this in a 302 ?  Or did he and that 302 was not released yet?)

Assertion 1... there is a reference to hijacker Cooper having cig stains on right hand.

The conjecture is that it is a conflation with the suspect Eugene Cooper, but the problem is he doesn't match the guy in Himmelsbach's book published years earlier and he has "cig stains on fingers, right hand", while Cooper has "cig stains on right hand"..

Like most of this case, we just don't know for sure.

 

[olemisscub 466]

16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Assertion 1... there is a reference to hijacker Cooper having cig stains on right hand.

The conjecture is that it is a conflation with the suspect Eugene Cooper, but the problem is he doesn't match the guy in Himmelsbach's book published years earlier and he has "cig stains on fingers, right hand", while Cooper has "cig stains on right hand"..

 

Why does he have to match the guy in Himmy's book? 

I really wonder if this is some sort of a typo or brain fart by the case agent who wrote that. That is LITERALLY the only place in the entire FBI files where it says that about Cooper. The same Cooper description shows up well over a thousand times in the Vault files and that's the only time it says that. 

I'm not particularly suggesting that this agent was influenced by Himmelsbach's descriptions of Cooper, but rather this was some sort of typists brain fart. It says "this description taken from the file". Well....no. That's not taken from any file known to exist. 

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Why does he have to match the guy in Himmy's book? 

I really wonder if this is some sort of a typo or brain fart by the case agent who wrote that. That is LITERALLY the only place in the entire FBI files where it says that about Cooper. The same Cooper description shows up well over a thousand times in the Vault files and that's the only time it says that. 

I'm not particularly suggesting that this agent was influenced by Himmelsbach's descriptions of Cooper, but rather this was some sort of typists brain fart. It says "this description taken from the file". Well....no. That's not taken from any file known to exist. 

because there would need to be a three way conflation and through time.. or Himm's book had a conflation and years later another independent conflation in the FBI files..

What is the likelihood of two independent conflations years apart..

We have a fraction of the files, we don't know what we don't know..

Anything is possible..