DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 502]

Dan Cooper comic.. Boeing plant.

[olemisscub 232]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Which begs the question..

Where did Cooper get that knowledge.. (radio setting off the detonators) and the confidence to make a bomb.

What is LaPoint's background re: explosives (former paratrooper)

You have to have some explosives experience to make a bomb and have the confidence to carry it on a plane even if only using detonators..

LaPoint was a door gunner in Vietnam. I'm not sure where the media got that he was a paratrooper from, but that was repeated in the papers a bunch at the time. There's no evidence he had jumped before during his civilian or military life. 

Also, investigated him further just now and I'm not sure this is something that needed to be "defused". Sounds like he just had a bunch of flares. 

 

[FLYJACK 502]

Airborne object tracked by military planes over Michigan...

breaking, it has been shot down...

Edited February 12 by FLYJACK

[WalterRaleigh 4]

On 2/11/2023 at 9:58 AM, olemisscub said:

Hahneman was mentioned in the Watergate Hearings

 

To me, this exchange always felt like a coded message.

[CooperNWO305 105]

22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Which begs the question..

Where did Cooper get that knowledge.. (radio setting off the detonators) and the confidence to make a bomb.

What is LaPoint's background re: explosives (former paratrooper)

You have to have some explosives experience to make a bomb and have the confidence to carry it on a plane even if only using detonators..

If the bomb was actually radio controlled (which it doesn’t seem to be) then those would be skills possibly only picked up in the military, in a specialized field. Possibly picked up in the civilian world, but less likely. If he was dealing with just dynamite and an electrical blasting cap, then those are still skills, but could be picked up in the military, mining, blasting for construction/roads, etc. He could very well have known explosives, but still made a fake bomb or just a dynamite bomb with regular electric detonator. At that point he just has to pretend it is more high tech than it is. Cooper comes across as a bit of a story teller/embellisher. Carr said “know it all.”  Live wires inside a briefcase makes for good drama, but a simple switch would have been safer for him, albeit less visually dramatic. 

[FLYJACK 502]

51 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

If the bomb was actually radio controlled (which it doesn’t seem to be) then those would be skills possibly only picked up in the military, in a specialized field. Possibly picked up in the civilian world, but less likely. If he was dealing with just dynamite and an electrical blasting cap, then those are still skills, but could be picked up in the military, mining, blasting for construction/roads, etc. He could very well have known explosives, but still made a fake bomb or just a dynamite bomb with regular electric detonator. At that point he just has to pretend it is more high tech than it is. Cooper comes across as a bit of a story teller/embellisher. Carr said “know it all.”  Live wires inside a briefcase makes for good drama, but a simple switch would have been safer for him, albeit less visually dramatic. 

Right, it wasn't radio controlled,,

The wire attached to an electronic detonator creates an "antenna" which can pick up nearby radio signals which may trigger it..

Cooper voiced some concern over that..  which suggests two things,, 

First, he had that somewhat specialized knowledge..

and they were probably real electronic detonators.

Cooper didn't say don't use the radio,, he said use as little as possible..

He knew there was a risk there...

 

Edited February 13 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 232]

Posted about him a few weeks ago but the way that Cooper copycat Melvin Fisher was described by the flight crew is remarkably similar to Cooper, yet Fisher was an unemployed house painter. A total loser essentially. Makes me wonder if we inflate the few statements that we have about Cooper and perhaps turn him into something he was not.

From the UPI article covering his court appearance:

"The captain and two stewardesses, in opening day testimony, said Fisher appeared rational, coherent and knew a lot about airplanes."

"Capt. Charles Dodds said it became apparent that Fisher, 49, 'knew a little more than the average person knew' about flying when he told Dodds it would be all right to take off with a tailwind if the wind was less than 10 knots. 'Also', Dodds said, 'he knew about our dual communication system.' "

"Dodds said at one point, Fisher told him an exact pattern to fly and at what altitude, and insisted that he lower the rear stairwell and lower the flaps to slow the airplane."

"Dodds said Fisher appeared 'very, very reasonable.' "

"Dodds said he received a note from Fisher which said '$550,000 in circulated $100 bills and a parachute.' "

"Stewardess Susan Sigmier...testified that Fisher appeared 'calm'. 'I'm sure he was nervous, but he didn't act real nervous and was real courteous,' she said."

Interestingly, in the Fisher case, he brought a briefcase on board that had a fake bomb that he showed to the crew and also had walkie-talkies with him. He had one of them taken to the pilot, which is how they communicated.  

 

[FLYJACK 502]

Ulis had the Penny's tie dating wrong for years,, because he stole it from my old post's he didn't really understand it.. I didn't reveal everything. He twisted it to fit his Sheridan narrative.

He claimed 1962/63 to fit Sheridan at Boeing.. it was BS.. when I called him on it he just ignored me..

Recently, he finally acknowledged the correct date ignoring he was wrong for the last 6 years, but claims he figured it out.. I had always pointed out that Ulis was wrong and the earliest the tie was sold was early 1964..

What Ulis didn't know then was that the Penny's logo was first changed November 24, 1963.. that started with store signage and marketing. The logo on Cooper's tie never existed before November 24, 1963 and didn't show up on products until early 1964.. There is also another clue on the tie..

So, the logo dates the tie to earliest about Spring 1964..

the patents date the tie to late 1964 and sold probably by Spring 1965 depending on inventory turnover.

We can date the tie from about Spring 1964 to about Spring 1965.

 

Penny's ad on top Nov 20,1963 with old logo.

Penny's ad on bottom Nov 27, 1963 with new logo.

(There is other documentation for the logo change date)

Edited February 13 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 502]

28 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Posted about him a few weeks ago but the way that Cooper copycat Melvin Fisher was described by the flight crew is remarkably similar to Cooper, yet Fisher was an unemployed house painter. A total loser essentially. Makes me wonder if we inflate the few statements that we have about Cooper and perhaps turn him into something he was not.

From the UPI article covering his court appearance:

"The captain and two stewardesses, in opening day testimony, said Fisher appeared rational, coherent and knew a lot about airplanes."

"Capt. Charles Dodds said it became apparent that Fisher, 49, 'knew a little more than the average person knew' about flying when he told Dodds it would be all right to take off with a tailwind if the wind was less than 10 knots. 'Also', Dodds said, 'he knew about our dual communication system.' "

"Dodds said at one point, Fisher told him an exact pattern to fly and at what altitude, and insisted that he lower the rear stairwell and lower the flaps to slow the airplane."

"Dodds said Fisher appeared 'very, very reasonable.' "

"Dodds said he received a note from Fisher which said '$550,000 in circulated $100 bills and a parachute.' "

"Stewardess Susan Sigmier...testified that Fisher appeared 'calm'. 'I'm sure he was nervous, but he didn't act real nervous and was real courteous,' she said."

Interestingly, in the Fisher case, he brought a briefcase on board that had a fake bomb that he showed to the crew and also had walkie-talkies with him. He had one of them taken to the pilot, which is how they communicated.  

 

That is an issue with observational evidence.. vs facts..

You can always raise doubt with observational evidence but then you have nothing left..

Blevins claims Cooper wasn't Latin/Swarthy but he just had a tan..

Edwards claims Cooper was White not Latino...

Observational evidence is valid, it just needs to have context.

This case is dominated by observational evidence.

Even the FBI admitted in 1976 they didn't have the evidence for a prosecution without Cooper's co-operation..

[Math of Insects 76]

I think he was just saying that the conclusions we are drawing from that (presumably accurate) observational evidence might be an overreach, since that same evidence was noted in a different case, with a very different conclusion. Not calling the observations themselves into question.

[Coopericane 35]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:58 AM, olemisscub said:

Hahneman was mentioned in the Watergate Hearings

 

Funny, from a certain point of view, one might say that this conversation contains one Cooper suspect being questioned about another Cooper suspect...

Edited February 14 by Coopericane

[ParrotheadVol 52]

10 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Funny, from a certain point of view, one might say that this conversation contains one Cooper suspect being questioned about another Cooper suspect...

I noticed that as well, although Hunt is one of the more ridiculous "suspects". 

[olemisscub 232]

Got bored and decided to try and make Flo's Dracula looking sketch more like a traditional Cooper sketch. 

 

[WalterRaleigh 4]

13 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I noticed that as well, although Hunt is one of the more ridiculous "suspects". 

I agree.  Hunt was a middle manager.  Hunt never got his hands dirty on any operation (except maybe during WWII).  Always the messenger between the white-shoe decision makers and the CIA "contractors" who actually carried out the task at-hand....part of his lifelong frustration was being stuck outside of the inner circle.    I can't imagine he'd have felt comfortable pulling off the Cooper hijack, he just didn't have the experience.  That said, he would have known EXACTLY who to recruit to get the job done.

[ElOel 0]

On 2/12/2023 at 10:30 AM, FLYJACK said:

Which begs the question..

Where did Cooper get that knowledge.. (radio setting off the detonators) and the confidence to make a bomb.

What is LaPoint's background re: explosives (former paratrooper)

You have to have some explosives experience to make a bomb and have the confidence to carry it on a plane even if only using detonators..

Been following this thread (and the earlier one) for a few years and have read both from the beginning.

Figured I would add my meager knowledge here-

When I was growing up in the '70s, my family went on vacations that involved long road trips, and this sort of wording was common enough on signs in construction areas that I remember them to this day.  Similar signs exist today, but now include "cell phones."

So I don't think Cooper would need any more "knowledge" than I had as a 7 year old.

[FLYJACK 502]

8 hours ago, ElOel said:

Been following this thread (and the earlier one) for a few years and have read both from the beginning.

Figured I would add my meager knowledge here-

When I was growing up in the '70s, my family went on vacations that involved long road trips, and this sort of wording was common enough on signs in construction areas that I remember them to this day.  Similar signs exist today, but now include "cell phones."

So I don't think Cooper would need any more "knowledge" than I had as a 7 year old.

Not exactly the same.. you saw a sign but did you know why...

Cooper built a real or fake bomb with electronic detonators, he claimed.. He had to have some "explosives" knowledge. IMO, if the detonators were real the bomb was probably real..

What is interesting is that he said the radio might effect it and to use the radio as little as possible, he didn't say don't use the radio at all.

[FLYJACK 502]

C-123 Vietnam

 

[georger 122]

57 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not exactly the same.. you saw a sign but did you know why...

Cooper built a real or fake bomb with electronic detonators, he claimed.. He had to have some "explosives" knowledge. IMO, if the detonators were real the bomb was probably real..

What is interesting is that he said the radio might effect it and to use the radio as little as possible, he didn't say don't use the radio at all.

Not sure what he was saying. He didnt elaborate. Detonators are Emf/static sensitive inside an airplane? ? Like special optical effects inside an airplane (Blevins claim) ?  What did he have in mind?  They were flying through rain .... 

Edited February 16 by georger

[FLYJACK 502]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

Not sure what he was saying. He didnt elaborate. Detonators are Emf/static sensitive inside an airplane? ? Like special optical effects inside an airplane (Blevins claim) ?  What did he have in mind?  

Witnesses..

"the hijacker had indicated the bomb had an electrical fuse"

"She stated that at one time he commented that "the bomb" he had was electrically fused and he certainly hoped the crew would not generate any electrical currents which would trigger it."

"He told her it was an electronic device and suggested the aircraft radio be used as little as possible. He said he didnt think radio transmissions would bother it, but wanted to let the crew know."

[ElOel 0]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not exactly the same.. you saw a sign but did you know why...

Cooper built a real or fake bomb with electronic detonators, he claimed.. He had to have some "explosives" knowledge. IMO, if the detonators were real the bomb was probably real..

What is interesting is that he said the radio might effect it and to use the radio as little as possible, he didn't say don't use the radio at all.

Yes, I did know why.  It's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together when explosives and radios are together like that.  The radio could set off the explosives.  I also asked my 9 year old brother about. (He was building crystal radios at the time)   There was quite the discussion, as we traveled in a pickup truck/camper combo with the kids in the back.     We used an intercom between the camper and the cab of the truck.  It was wired, but my mom was still freaking out.

But really, all that was needed to be known was that a radio could set off the explosives.   Historically, it was known that a two way radio could induce a current in the wire leading to the blasting caps.    Later, when explosive charges were set off with radio signals, there was concern that radios (and cell phones) could trigger them, but this (especially triggering via cell phone use) is not nearly as likely as most think.   

Cooper himself didn't say why his "bomb" would explode, either, aside from "electronic detonators," which really doesn't mean anything.  It certainly doesn't mean he had any explosives knowledge, that he had any of these "electronic detonators," nor why he would need more than one for a bomb that fit inside of an attache case.

Telling the crew to use the radio "as little as possible" is hogwash.   If the radio is likely, or even possibly able to set off the bomb you built, then you tell them not to use the radio at all.   Or build a bomb that isn't likely to be set off by something you know is routinely used by what you are hijacking.    Doing otherwise sounds far from a explosives "expert" to me.   It sounds like someone bluffing while trying to put the crew on edge in order to gain a psychological advantage. 

[olemisscub 232]

Been to able to clean up and enhance the best image we have of KK5-1 (the one that FBI gave Doc Edwards)

 

[FLYJACK 502]

Does anybody know if electronic detonators alone would be enough to bring down a plane??

[FLYJACK 502]

Dan Cooper comics are not rare in Canada..

There are currently 10 Dan Cooper comic listings on Kijiji Canada... all in Quebec.

Kijiji is a general online buy and sell classified service in Canada..  sort of like Craigslist.

https://www.kijiji.ca/b-canada/dan-cooper/k0l0?rb=true&dc=true

Facebook has a dozen or so.. Quebec..

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/montreal/search?query="dan cooper"

[FLYJACK 502]

Belair also had Raleigh coupons.. (1966 ads)

 

Edited February 16 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 502]

4 hours ago, ElOel said:

Yes, I did know why.  It's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together when explosives and radios are together like that.  The radio could set off the explosives.  I also asked my 9 year old brother about. (He was building crystal radios at the time)   There was quite the discussion, as we traveled in a pickup truck/camper combo with the kids in the back.     We used an intercom between the camper and the cab of the truck.  It was wired, but my mom was still freaking out.

But really, all that was needed to be known was that a radio could set off the explosives.   Historically, it was known that a two way radio could induce a current in the wire leading to the blasting caps.    Later, when explosive charges were set off with radio signals, there was concern that radios (and cell phones) could trigger them, but this (especially triggering via cell phone use) is not nearly as likely as most think.   

Cooper himself didn't say why his "bomb" would explode, either, aside from "electronic detonators," which really doesn't mean anything.  It certainly doesn't mean he had any explosives knowledge, that he had any of these "electronic detonators," nor why he would need more than one for a bomb that fit inside of an attache case.

Telling the crew to use the radio "as little as possible" is hogwash.   If the radio is likely, or even possibly able to set off the bomb you built, then you tell them not to use the radio at all.   Or build a bomb that isn't likely to be set off by something you know is routinely used by what you are hijacking.    Doing otherwise sounds far from a explosives "expert" to me.   It sounds like someone bluffing while trying to put the crew on edge in order to gain a psychological advantage. 

The warning sign was not to use a radio in a blast area, not that it would trigger a wired electronic detonator.

Historically, it was known, where do you get that over generalization from.. maybe in the military but not Joe average.

Of course Cooper was referring to the electronic fuse or detonator,, per witnesses.. 

It doesn't prove he had explosives knowledge but it does suggest he did.

I am not claiming he was an explosives "expert" but had a level of knowledge above average..

Clearly, he did if the bomb was real..  even building a fake bomb requires knowledge.

 

That is the stronger argument based on the evidence. To argue he had none and was bluffing has no merit, a guess.

I hear this often in this case..

Cooper was bluffing about this or that... while anything is possible there is no evidence.

 

Edited February 16 by FLYJACK