DB Cooper

[Robert99 48]

6 hours ago, georger said:

 

The only thing I posted on Sluggo's site was done at his request and is still there.  

[georger 237]

5 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The only thing I posted on Sluggo's site was done at his request and is still there.  

I have never posted much about my relationship with Wayne. Sluggo, as he called himself (it was a joke) was a private person in his personal life. He had a strong technical-academic background with a number of technical interests he spent his lifetime developing. He was an employee in the nuclear-security industry with years of training and experience behind him. He was a  private pilot. He also had a deep interest in paleontology and had visited the SUI-ISU field museums to get to know their collections, where he met some of the museum staff members in Iowa. Sluggo was interested in Tom Kaye's appointment and work. The Cooper case was just one small aspect of Wayne's total life and interests. He was totally devoted to his wife and they were a successful team.

Wayne's flight comms 'timeline' and his map collection remain unique contributions in the Cooper case. Wayne was especially proud of his interview of Ralph HImmelsbach! Wayne was able to arrange meetings with Jo Weber during which Jo allowed Wayne to review her boxes of 'Cooper notes', from the thousands of people Jo had talked to by telephone, during her Cooper involvement. 

Wayne had integrity. Wayne was unique - there is no doubt about that! I miss Wayne and his contributions.  Wayne@ was a reliable trustworthy person you could count on; based on my long experience with him which  was tested a number of times. !  I miss Wayne.    

Edited March 19, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 492]

I’m hearing that Tom’s scope has been fixed and is up and running.

[georger 237]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I’m hearing that Tom’s scope has been fixed and is up and running.

good news...................................... thanks.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

So "negotiable American currency" always struck me like something that Jack Webb would have said, but Dragnet was off the air by 1971.  However, there was a short lived series called O'Hara: US Treasury that he produced during the fall of 1971.  It starred David Janssen as an undercover ATF agent.

So far none of the episodes that were on before the hijacking use "negotiable American currency" but the episode that aired on October 15 jumps out for other reasons.  It's called Operation:Time-Fuse.

In it Manson Family hippies send a fake bomb to a newspaper editor in an attempt to extort $200k.

The bomb is inside a metal box with the dimensions of an attache case stolen from a construction site.   The bomb is "open circuit" with a bright red battery.  "This one is a dud.  It wouldn't have exploded even if the wiring hadn't been cut...There's no way the electrical circuit could close.  It looks like somebody is trying to scare you...Someone knew what they were doing.  If this is a sample of their work it was first rate."

The package it came in was untraceable.  "We might get fingerprints of that but I doubt it."

James Cagney tough guy dialogue from the bomber comes in over the phone. (Typing this out doesn't do it justice.)  "Please listen carefully.  You received my calling card.  You understand what it means.  Just listen.  You get the message Fuzz.  Don't miss a syllable.  Two hundred thousand.  Complete instrustions later.  In the past I have asked to be heard, now I demand to be heard.  Unless my demands are met a real bomb will explode."

Hollywood hard boiled detective dialogue follows.  "Top priority.  I want you to play it cool.  We don't need to start a panic.  Questions?  Hit the streets."

Discussion from the ATF agent to the newspaper editor about whether he should pay the $200k.  "You're a private citizen. That's a judgement call you're going to have to make for yourself...If you do decide to pay, the money will be under tight control, identifiable by listed serial numbers and never out of sight of Treasury agents."  The editor agrees to "get the money and let [the Treasury Department] list the serial numbers" but is still undecided about paying.  

A composite is made of one of the suspects.  Nobody can identify the suspect from the drawing.  Discussion follows about the witnesses feeling the composite was an "accurate likeness...You can ask a dozen witnesses for a suspect's description, you get a dozen accurate likenesses, all different...even the officers responding to the bomb call couldn't make the picture."

The description for another one of the male suspects was "medium build, about six feet, brown hair."

Anyway, all this went on in the first 10 minutes.  The rest of the show involves David Janssen going undercover to find scope out the Manson Family bombers and recover the stolen dynamite. The Family are threatening to detonate a real bomb if they don't get the $200k dropped off in a wide open crossroad by 3 pm.  There's much discussion about whether the bomb they set if the newspaper editor doesn't pay up is real or just a bluff.  

So if Cooper were watching that would mean he lived near a CBS affiliate and without any kids at home on a Friday night. (The Partridge Family was on opposite on ABC.) His would be the target demographic for the show.  The Dirty Dozen came on that night following the episode in question.  

Anyway, check it out and see what you think. James Doohan has a cameo.   https://youtu.be/qyL76F3eAUY

(As an aside, the Wikipedia entry for the show says that: "according to Brandon Tartikoff, when Fred Silverman was the head of programming at CBS and considering whether or not to renew O'Hara, he met with a representative of the Treasury Department, who told him, "There are those of us down in Washington who like the idea of a weekly prime-time showcase. So if the show gets cancelled, we're gonna do what we've gotta do." Silverman didn't take the Treasury representative seriously, but according to Tartikoff, after the show was cancelled, "about a dozen top CBS executives on both coasts had their income taxes audited the following year.")

[olemisscub 492]

31 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

So "negotiable American currency" always struck me like something that Jack Webb would have said, but Dragnet was off the air by 1971.  However, there was a short lived series called O'Hara: US Treasury that he produced during the fall of 1971.  It starred David Janssen as an undercover ATF agent.

 

Good stuff. Several of the Cooper copycats were referred to by passengers as using phony tough guy expressions like something from a TV show or a movie. 

Here's one such instance:

[georger 237]

Unredacted TTY ?  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k__MfEN6CmaaWPbFjYrphul3F-LHE341

Quote: "any redactions on the FBI teletype are merely references to other flights unrelated to NORJACK. There's no conspiracy! "  (missing or redacted lines someone at WSHM identified have nothing to do with a coverup. Had WSHM dug deeper it would know that! Likewise R99.R99 is disingenuous. )

?

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 48]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Unredacted TTY ?  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k__MfEN6CmaaWPbFjYrphul3F-LHE341

Quote: "any redactions on the FBI teletype are merely references to other flights unrelated to NORJACK. There's no conspiracy! "  (missing or redacted lines someone at WSHM identified have nothing to do with a coverup. Had WSHM dug deeper it would know that! Likewise R99.R99 is disingenuous. )

?

 

Georger continues to be disingenuous himself and is apparently unable to comprehend that it is actually the ARINC teletype transcripts that the WSHM examined.  Anyone interested in what the WSHM personnel did should refer to their work product on their study on this matter.

But I don't remember anything in the WSHM study that claimed redactions in individual posts.  Instead, they believed that some entire posts were missing.

If Georger had actually read the ARINC transcripts, he would know that they have always contained unredacted posts related to other aircraft as well as the hijacked airliner.

The main conspiracy and coverup in this entire matter is the one between Georger's ears.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Robert99

[olemisscub 492]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Unredacted TTY ?  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k__MfEN6CmaaWPbFjYrphul3F-LHE341

Quote: "any redactions on the FBI teletype are merely references to other flights unrelated to NORJACK. There's no conspiracy! "  (missing or redacted lines someone at WSHM identified have nothing to do with a coverup. Had WSHM dug deeper it would know that! Likewise R99.R99 is disingenuous. )

?

 

We pulled that out of a box at Himmelsbach's grandson's house. Although finding the original letter to Himmy from "Clara" was the highlight of that trip. Would be neat to have that stamp DNA tested at some point. 

[georger 237]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger continues to be disingenuous himself and is apparently unable to comprehend that it is actually the ARINC teletype transcripts that the WSHM examined.  Anyone interested in what the WSHM personnel did should refer to their work product on their study on this matter.

But I don't remember anything in the WSHM study that claimed redactions in individual posts.  Instead, they believed that some entire posts were missing.

If Georger had actually read the ARINC transcripts, he would know that they have always contained unredacted posts related to other aircraft as well as the hijacked airliner.

The main conspiracy and coverup in this entire matter is the one between Georger's ears.

What is the subject of your post?   Georger or WSHM redactions/missing lines ?

As usual you havent told us anything.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 48]

54 minutes ago, georger said:

What is the subject of your post?   Georger or WSHM redactions/missing lines ?

As usual you havent told us anything.

 

Georger, do you know how to read?

[WalterRaleigh 9]

17 hours ago, olemisscub said:

We pulled that out of a box at Himmelsbach's grandson's house. Although finding the original letter to Himmy from "Clara" was the highlight of that trip. Would be neat to have that stamp DNA tested at some point. 

Holy grail?

[JAGdb 87]

2 hours ago, WalterRaleigh said:

Holy grail?

why not at this point, but didn't RH state he thought that the whole Clara thing wasn't legit ?

[olemisscub 492]

5 hours ago, WalterRaleigh said:

Holy grail?

I’m personally not a believer in Gunther, but I’m not at all opposed to following leads based on the book and wouldn’t discourage anyone from following them. Even if it didn’t  reveal Cooper’s identity, DNA testing the stamp could explain who was behind the letters, which I think is a worthwhile endeavor.

[FLYJACK 654]

15 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I’m personally not a believer in Gunther, 

What does that mean,,,  others say the same but it can mean Gunther made it all up or he was contacted by a hoaxer..

I believe he was contacted by somebody,, either a hoaxer or Cooper..

[olemisscub 492]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

What does that mean,,,  others say the same but it can mean Gunther made it all up or he was contacted by a hoaxer..

I believe he was contacted by somebody,, either a hoaxer or Cooper..

It means I think the book is likely fictional, but I'm not prepared to completely write off. I keep an open mind. 

[Math of Insects 98]

I do not believe DB Cooper followed the minutiae of some second-tier magazine-writer's career, to the extent of being able cite and accurately spell/recall the correct title of a single article from a decade before, and making a point to read "a woman's magazine" just to see what other pearls of wisdom that obscure writer was laying down. 

I also don't believe a hoaxer did that. Pre-internet, this was quite the homework assignment. 
The Reader's Guide to Periodic Literature would most certainly not have helped with the latter, and perhaps not even the former.

That middle paragraph fluffing up Gunther is not credible to me, even as someone trying to curry favor. 

I personally think it was either a wholecloth fabrication by him from the beginning, or someone(s) very close to him taking the p*ss at his expense. 

The eventual book is 100% fiction and completely dismissable as anything but opportunistic entertainment, IMO.

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

It means I think the book is likely fictional, but I'm not prepared to completely write off. I keep an open mind. 

I know,,  it contains fiction.. that isn't in dispute. He used fabrications and research to write the book. 

Do you think Gunther fabricated the contact from a person claiming to be Cooper??  

Others have also said they don't believe/buy the Gunther book, but that is too simplistic.

Gunther contacted the FBI and gave them info,, if that were false that would elevate a benign hoax to a serious crime.. That is a big risk and career ending move. I can't see him doing that for a mediocre book.

The real question,, IMO.. was he contacted by the real Cooper or a hoaxer. Gunther even claims he doesn't know for sure.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I do not believe DB Cooper followed the minutiae of some second-tier magazine-writer's career, to the extent of being able cite and accurately spell/recall the correct title of a single article from a decade before, and making a point to read "a woman's magazine" just to see what other pearls of wisdom that obscure writer was laying down. 

I also don't believe a hoaxer did that. Pre-internet, this was quite the homework assignment. 
The Reader's Guide to Periodic Literature would most certainly not have helped with the latter, and perhaps not even the former.

That middle paragraph fluffing up Gunther is not credible to me, even as someone trying to curry favor. 

I personally think it was either a wholecloth fabrication by him from the beginning, or someone(s) very close to him taking the p*ss at his expense. 

The eventual book is 100% fiction and completely dismissable as anything but opportunistic entertainment, IMO.

No way..

Why contact the FBI if it was his hoax.. makes no sense. There is no benefit and potentially serious charges. Too much personal risk.

When the FBI brushed him off he wrote the book..  

He was contacted by somebody...

Granted the book is mostly fiction, embellishments and research (some wrong)...

 

[olemisscub 492]

34 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The real question,, IMO.. was he contacted by the real Cooper or a hoaxer. Gunther even claims he doesn't know for sure.

 

A hoaxer. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

A hoaxer. 

Why.

[Coopericane 44]

I don't think we (or at least I) know enough about Gunther to say for certain if a hoax is the kind of thing he'd try to pull off. On one hand, he was an award-winning, seemingly serious journalist. But after taking a look at his other publications, they seemed a little... fanciful? The covers almost remind me of what clickbait may have looked like in the 1980's if it existed. Mind you I didn't actually read any of them, and I have no idea if the attention-grabbing quotes on the cover are even something the author would be responsible for. All in all, it's a relatively minor dig at his credibility. I haven't found anything to make me think he invented his whole Cooper story. Him being misinformed and/or taken for a ride by a hoaxer seems more likely to me considering some of the basic fact-checking about the hijacking he fails to do in his book.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Coopericane

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Coopericane said:

I don't think we (or at least I) know enough about Gunther to say for certain if a hoax is the kind of thing he'd try to pull off. On one hand, he was an award-winning, seemingly serious journalist. But after taking a look at his other publications, they seemed a little... fanciful? The covers almost remind me of what clickbait may have looked like in the 1980's if it existed. Mind you I didn't actually read any of them, and I have no idea if the attention-grabbing quotes on the cover are even something the author would be responsible for. All in all, it's a relatively minor dig at his credibility. I haven't found anything to make me think he invented his whole Cooper story. Him being misinformed and/or taken for a ride by a hoaxer seems more likely to me considering some of the basic fact-checking about the hijacking he fails to do in his book.

Gunther wrote mostly non-fiction (financial) books but he wrote both fiction and non-fiction magazine articles... that doesn't tell us much.

The Cooper book is largely fiction and researched with some errors..  but IMO he did not make up the contact from a person claiming to be Cooper.. The story Gunther told was via "Clara" who probably made up most of it and his own fiction.

Because the book contains fiction it is natural to assume it is all fiction..

So, I am looking at the arguments...

Gunther named another person that "Cooper" contacted. Not something a hoaxer would do.

Cooper ended contact abruptly for some reason. Resumed 10 years later by "Clara".. 

If Cooper lost the money, he would have a motive to sell his story. If he didn't lose the money then unlikely.

Cooper demanded the notes and matches back not due to fingerprints,, due to writing, the matchbook had writing on it. Cooper was not concerned with prints, he left the cig butts and offered money with his prints, handled a cup, left the tie, touched lots of places..  Cooper was not concerned about prints. He wanted the stuff with writing back at a time when he believed he was going to be successful. Later, if he lost the money and is back East he thinks he can sell his story..

"Clara" never asked for money but wanted to promote the narrative that Cooper was a good guy and had died..  this is inconsistent with a hoax. Clara's narrative is consistent with two Cooper letters. (They were identically written and heavily redacted). It sounds like an associate wanted to publicize Cooper's death to end any search for him...  probably false.

Cooper was described a middle aged loner...  Gunther's audience.

There are a couple other things I have to hold back...

 

So, I am interested in the arguments for a hoax,,,  more than an opinion.

 

 

 

[georger 237]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Gunther wrote mostly non-fiction (financial) books but he wrote both fiction and non-fiction magazine articles... that doesn't tell us much.

The Cooper book is largely fiction and researched with some errors..  but IMO he did not make up the contact from a person claiming to be Cooper.. The story Gunther told was via "Clara" who probably made up most of it and his own fiction.

Because the book contains fiction it is natural to assume it is all fiction..

So, I am looking at the arguments...

Gunther named another person that "Cooper" contacted. Not something a hoaxer would do.

Cooper ended contact abruptly for some reason. Resumed 10 years later by "Clara".. 

If Cooper lost the money, he would have a motive to sell his story. If he didn't lose the money then unlikely.

Cooper demanded the notes and matches back not due to fingerprints,, due to writing, the matchbook had writing on it. Cooper was not concerned with prints, he left the cig butts and offered money with his prints, handled a cup, left the tie, touched lots of places..  Cooper was not concerned about prints. He wanted the stuff with writing back at a time when he believed he was going to be successful. Later, if he lost the money and is back East he thinks he can sell his story..

"Clara" never asked for money but wanted to promote the narrative that Cooper was a good guy and had died..  this is inconsistent with a hoax. Clara's narrative is consistent with two Cooper letters. (They were identically written and heavily redacted). It sounds like an associate wanted to publicize Cooper's death to end any search for him...  probably false.

Cooper was described a middle aged loner...  Gunther's audience.

There are a couple other things I have to hold back...

 

So, I am interested in the arguments for a hoax,,,  more than an opinion.

 

 

 

By taking on the Cooper story he becomes the center of attention. Nobody can claim he was one of America's favorite authors - investigative journalists with important credentials. Is Cooper found and in custody because of Gunther!? No. I like it when the carnival comes to town and you get to see the Yeti from Tibet, the two headed lady, and a piece of Noah's arc. All for less than $3 bucks@!  That's noteworthy news. A poll found that nobody that attended the carnival had ever heard of Gunther, until now and Cooper forums ? 

Edited March 26, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, georger said:

By taking on the Cooper story he becomes the center of attention. Nobody can claim he was one of America's favorite authors - investigative journalists with important credentials. Is Cooper found and in custody because of Gunther!? 

Haven't you been paying attention... that makes no sense and doesn't address the question.

Would Gunther, a well respected and successful author of mostly financial non fiction books take a hoax he created to the FBI, a Federal crime. Would he risk his reputation and career for a mediocre book in the mid 80's... when there was no reason to go to the FBI. The fact that he went to the FBI with his info and even named another person that the "Cooper" contacted gives that part of Gunther's book credibility.

Gunther would have to be dumbest guy in the world to bring his manufactured hoax to the FBI in order to write a mediocre book... a book in which he admits the contact may not be from the real Cooper.

 

The question is,, was he contacted by a hoaxer or the real Cooper..

A third option brought up by "Math of Insects" would be that Gunther was initially contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper then made up the later Clara contact but that has issues.

Edited March 26, 2023 by FLYJACK