DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

37 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

It doesn't HAVE to match to have significance. And again, what would be a match on a process patent? Even if there was an exact measurement that could be matched, there's no indication for when during the process itself the microscopic alloy came from. The alloy could have hypothetically gotten on the tie early in the development or testing phase for the process. If we were claiming that it got on his clothing via a commercial product, then yes, you'd have to match it perfectly. But since this may come from a lab, it can have any number of percentages on it because the particles could have come from any stage during the development i.e. not a completed product.

Again, the significance, if there is any, of the patent is that there is a mixture of Ti and high percentage antimony that is allowable in the process, which means that Ti and high percentage Sb were alloyed at some point during the creation of the process to see if it would work. There is no precise percentage called for in the patent, so saying that you can "eliminate" the particles from the process is just incorrect. 

What matters is that it appears to be a TiSb alloy. We only have evidence of two companies experimenting with TiSb alloys in the tie era. Thus, it's a lead. It's a lead that led us to a person who I think needs to be investigated further. Nothing more. I've never made the claim that Vordahl is Cooper. I think there's a possibility he was. The same as I think it's a possibility that WJS is Cooper or Hahneman or Braden or some of these new Canadians that have popped up recently. 

If you want to attack Ulis for overplaying it's significance (I believe he may have called it a smoking gun), then go ahead. He's wrong for saying that IMO. 

It seems you don't understand the patent process and requirements.. process was never mentioned until I brought it up. The patent is not for any new alloy.

The full particle composition (if they are an alloy) not just the percentages, DOES NOT actually match the patent.. only a partial composition match to a reference to vague percentages of Ti and Sb. Patents require precision. 

You are claiming that the particles are close so by inference it must be related.. that isn't true, it needs to be exact to make that claim.

I am just stating, based on the facts that the patent is not evidence of anything... it still may be possible that the particles came from a metallurgy environment but that patent is not evidence.. the fact that the particles do not fully match it indicates that the patent is NOT related.

Edited March 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 237]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:46 PM, FLYJACK said:

I am grumpy because I am being pressured to unnecessarily publicly disclose my research...  I have been collecting this stuff for 6 years and initially disclosed it as I went but was completely trashed for posting facts.. I stopped for several reasons. I have exclusive Cooper stuff as well.

It probably doesn't make sense now but releasing info will undermine my ability to advance this case... it jeopardizes my ability to get more information.

I am on the 1 yard line 4th down and every time you guys bring up H I feel like I am penalized 10 yards.

I have much more info than everyone and that has given me completely different perspective. I can't discuss things adequately without disclosing my info and disclosing info undermines my research... a catch 22.

As a lawyer, is it smart to disclose your case before you get to court?

The problem with Hahneman isn't his lips or his height... it is something else that I am trying to resolve. Something that has three capital letters.

Titanium Alloys - SAFETY DATA SHEET 

The tie particles raise possible occupational disease issues when coupled with smoking, and the basis for a grudge, and the need for money.( medical expenses + living expenses etc). Central is Cooper's occupational identity. H catagorised Cooper as a 'food service worker', so maybe the tie didnt belong to Cooper at all but was borrowed. Apparently there is no testimony by anyone who saw Cooper taking the tie off and placing it on the seats where found ?  But, the particles on the tie raise occupational health and safety issues, for whomever owned it?    

For example, the tie does not match what one would find if Cooper's occupational exposure had been 'agricultural'.

Edited March 8, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 492]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The full particle composition (if they are an alloy) DOES NOT actually match the patent.. only a partial match to a reference to vague percentages of Ti and Sb. Patents require precision. 

 

No kidding. Of course it doesn't match precisely. Nothing in the patent gives you a precise measurement to use. It claims that in that particular process you can use an alpha promoter of up to 18% antimony. Again, I'm not sure how many times I have to say this: the significance, if you want to place significance on it, of that patent is that it shows that Ti and Sb were still being alloyed as part of experiments during the tie era.

I'm sure you'll respond so I'll gladly give you the final word on this. I hope I never talk about metallurgy again on this site.  

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

No kidding. Of course it doesn't match precisely. Nothing in the patent gives you a precise measurement to use. It claims that in that particular process you can use an alpha promoter of up to 18% antimony. Again, I'm not sure how many times I have to say this: the significance, if you want to place significance on it, of that patent is that it shows that Ti and Sb were still being alloyed as part of experiments during the tie era.

I'm sure you'll respond so I'll gladly give you the final word on this. I hope I never talk about metallurgy again on this site.  

You keep defaulting to the percentage,,,

The composition DOES NOT MATCH. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 492]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

Titanium Alloys - SAFETY DATA SHEET 

The tie particles raise possible occupational disease issues when coupled with smoking, and the basis for a grudge, and the need for money.( medical expenses + living expenses etc). Central is Cooper's occupational identity. H catagorised Cooper as a 'food service worker', so maybe the tie didnt belong to Cooper at all but was borrowed. Apparently there is no testimony by anyone who saw Cooper taking the tie off and placing it on the seats where found ?  But, the particles on the tie raise occupational health and safety issues, for whomever owned it?    

I've spent some fair amount of time researching metallurgists who died in 1972 to see if any were younger and died of some sort of disease or cancer, premising the research on the idea that Cooper was a dying man. Melvin Fisher, the copycat, believed he was dying from a disease and wanted to leave something for his kids. McCoy thought he had a brain tumor that was going to kill him. Hahneman told members of the hijacked crew he had some illness and later claimed that he got a fatal diagnosis for liver disease from some doctor in Cambodia in July 1971. Hahneman said lots of odd things like that, so who knows if that was true or not. 

[georger 237]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I've spent some fair amount of time researching metallurgists who died in 1972 to see if any were younger and died of some sort of disease or cancer, premising the research on the idea that Cooper was a dying man. Melvin Fisher, the copycat, believed he was dying from a disease and wanted to leave something for his kids. McCoy thought he had a brain tumor that was going to kill him. Hahneman told members of the hijacked crew he had some illness and later claimed that he got a fatal diagnosis for liver disease from some doctor in Cambodia in July 1971. Hahneman said lots of odd things like that, so who knows if that was true or not. 

During his conversations with Tina Cooper references 'a place you would like', MN is nice land', ... places he's been and seen. Part of this is the affect of stress. His mind is wandering and he is referencing 'better times and places' and serenity from his background. Your references to other hijackers above are very interesting!  People's personal backgrounds and hopes and dreams leak through when under stress... investigators may have missed this when questioning Tina.  

Edited March 8, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

This TiSb patent is a disaster...  there is ZERO evidence TiSb was ever produced in any percentage.

This Antimony statement is not integral to the patent, it is a general statement to cover possibilities.. besides 18% as an upper bound it also states normally 2-3%...  

I have read the entire document and there is NO EVIDENCE a TiSb alloy was ever produced in any % related to this patent..

Edited March 9, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 492]

Edited March 9, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

It is not personal, that patent has been one of the biggest red herrings in the Vortex... surpassing all the previous ones Eric has conjured up...

[olemisscub 492]

20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It is not personal, that patent has been one of the biggest red herrings in the Vortex... surpassing all the previous ones Eric has conjured up...

Ugh, more metallurgy talk.

"Up to 18% antimony" appears on four Vordahl patents for actual alloys being created, they just predate the tie era by a few years. If you can find another place in America where you can prove that they were creating TiSb alloys in similar percentages, then please I'd genuinely like to know. Battelle in the early 50's, Crucible, and Sprague are the only places who are ever on record in the United States creating alloys with that high percentage of antimony. 

That's a very small field. And yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...someone else could have been screwing around in a lab making a TiSb alloy, but those 3 particles, if they are indeed an alloy, ARE a good lead. Again, there's only one guy whose name appears on more than one TiSb alloy patent where the Sb is that high, and it's Vordahl. So I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Vordahl's work is the proximate cause for that experimental alloy ending up on Cooper's tie, whomever Cooper was. As I've said, if that's the case, I think it likely it's derived from TIMET outside Vegas, not Cru in PA. I've not found any evidence of layoffs in 71 with Crucible. 

[FLYJACK 654]

The towel for Cooper's seat was extremely dirty/soiled/stained.. vs the next one.

I can't imagine anything the FBI doing anything.. is there any test that would produce that.  Was it dye from Cooper's hair??... ala Mitchell

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Ugh, more metallurgy talk.

"Up to 18% antimony" appears on four Vordahl patents for actual alloys being created, they just predate the tie era by a few years. If you can find another place in America where you can prove that they were creating TiSb alloys in similar percentages, then please I'd genuinely like to know. Battelle in the early 50's, Crucible, and Sprague are the only places who are ever on record in the United States creating alloys with that high percentage of antimony. 

That's a very small field. And yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...someone else could have been screwing around in a lab making a TiSb alloy, but those 3 particles, if they are indeed an alloy, ARE a good lead. Again, there's only one guy whose name appears on more than one TiSb alloy patent where the Sb is that high, and it's Vordahl. So I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Vordahl's work is the proximate cause for that experimental alloy ending up on Cooper's tie, whomever Cooper was. As I've said, if that's the case, I think it likely it's derived from TIMET outside Vegas, not Cru in PA. I've not found any evidence of layoffs in 71 with Crucible. 

Ryan, you are smarter than that..

There is no evidence in that patent that TiSb was actually produced in the 18% or any % for that patent.

Patents are written that way to capture possibilities,, 

You guys have misrepresented the information in the patent.

[olemisscub 492]

12 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The towel for Cooper's seat was extremely dirty/soiled/stained.. vs the next one.

I can't imagine anything the FBI doing anything.. is there any test that would produce that.  Was it dye from Cooper's hair??... ala Mitchell

 

 

 

looks to be a fingerprint smudge or an artifact of the film itself.

[olemisscub 492]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Ryan, you are smarter than that..

There is no evidence in that patent that TiSb was actually produced in the 18% or any % for that patent.

Patents are written that way to capture possibilities,, 

You guys have misrepresented the information in the patent.

Ok, forget that patent then. Can you find any other places that actually made TiSb alloys with high percentage antimony than those listed?

Edited March 9, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

 

looks to be a fingerprint smudge or an artifact of the film itself.

Doesn't look like a film artifact.. probably a smudge... time had passed, it might not even be the same towel.

[JAGdb 87]

Doesn't the FBI have the chair somewhere ?  Or they took it out of the plane at the time ?

[olemisscub 492]

17 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Doesn't the FBI have the chair somewhere ?  Or they took it out of the plane at the time ?

They removed the last 3 rows of seats. No idea where Cooper’s seat is now. Would be a cool piece for a museum.

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Ok, forget that patent then. Can you find any other places that actually made TiSb alloys with high percentage antimony than those listed?

Not exactly... 3 particles of over 100,000 is a small sample..

I found that Ti and Sb are particulates in jet engine exhaust and Diesel engine exhaust.. 

Ti and Sb was used in electronics...

Trying to find a matching commercial alloy from the 60's is a red herring.

It is not possible to pin down the source. You also have military and trade secret stuff..

The patent is a classic error in logic, the seen vs the unseen.. 

 

[olemisscub 492]

Ulis on TV. I really don’t like this lawsuit. It’s my opinion that a DNA recovery specialist needed to make the initial request. I think if a credentialed DNA lab sent in a request (non-FOIA) to try and recover DNA from a particular spot on Cooper’s tie that the FBI perhaps would have granted the request. Or at least have Tom make the request since there is already precedent for him having access. 
 

Eric is just a random dude to them, of course they aren’t going to give him access, especially when he didn’t have someone lined up already. I advised him on a FB Live a month or so ago that his lawsuit would carry a lot more weight if the DNA lab was part of the suit. I’m concerned that suing the FBI is just going to piss them off and that we’ll never get access again.

[olemisscub 492]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not exactly... 3 particles of over 100,000 is a small sample..

I found that Ti and Sb are particulates in jet engine exhaust and Diesel engine exhaust.. 

Ti and Sb was used in electronics...

Trying to find a matching commercial alloy from the 60's is a red herring.

It is not possible to pin down the source. You also have military and trade secret stuff..

The patent is a classic error in logic, the seen vs the unseen.. 

 

OK, you win. I’ll cry Uncle. I don’t want to talk about bloody metallurgy anymore.

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Ulis on TV. I really don’t like this lawsuit. It’s my opinion that a DNA recovery specialist needed to make the initial request. I think if a credentialed DNA lab sent in a request (non-FOIA) to try and recover DNA from a particular spot on Cooper’s tie that the FBI perhaps would have granted the request. Or at least have Tom make the request since there is already precedent for him having access. 
 

Eric is just a random dude to them, of course they aren’t going to give him access, especially when he didn’t have someone lined up already. I advised him on a FB Live a month or so ago that his lawsuit would carry a lot more weight if the DNA lab was part of the suit. I’m concerned that suing the FBI is just going to piss them off and that we’ll never get access again.

The DNA is the only way to get a 100% solution and Eric is risking that by not doing this properly.

[FLYJACK 654]

January 1970... intelligence document

[georger 237]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Ulis on TV. I really don’t like this lawsuit. It’s my opinion that a DNA recovery specialist needed to make the initial request. I think if a credentialed DNA lab sent in a request (non-FOIA) to try and recover DNA from a particular spot on Cooper’s tie that the FBI perhaps would have granted the request. Or at least have Tom make the request since there is already precedent for him having access. 
 

Eric is just a random dude to them, of course they aren’t going to give him access, especially when he didn’t have someone lined up already. I advised him on a FB Live a month or so ago that his lawsuit would carry a lot more weight if the DNA lab was part of the suit. I’m concerned that suing the FBI is just going to piss them off and that we’ll never get access again.

Hilarious!

The ever-vigilent news media is right on Ulis' tail feathers, following his every stunt in the Cooper Thunderdome. 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by georger

[WalterRaleigh 9]

19 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Ulis on TV. I really don’t like this lawsuit. It’s my opinion that a DNA recovery specialist needed to make the initial request. I think if a credentialed DNA lab sent in a request (non-FOIA) to try and recover DNA from a particular spot on Cooper’s tie that the FBI perhaps would have granted the request. Or at least have Tom make the request since there is already precedent for him having access. 
 

Eric is just a random dude to them, of course they aren’t going to give him access, especially when he didn’t have someone lined up already. I advised him on a FB Live a month or so ago that his lawsuit would carry a lot more weight if the DNA lab was part of the suit. I’m concerned that suing the FBI is just going to piss them off and that we’ll never get access again.

A wise judge once said, "sometimes a lawsuit is just a press release with a filing fee."

[olemisscub 492]

Gregory says Cooper had his glasses off briefly at a certain point.