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DB Cooper

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2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I've always been of the opinion that Coop probably lost the money when he opened his chute. I've wondered though, if he may have decided to rid himself of the money when he saw McCoy get busted with his ransom in his house, dead to rights. That would have been in the spring of 72. If he had already determined that he couldn't spend the money due to the serial numbers being checked, then I could see him ridding himself of it. He wouldn't be the first person to dump evidence in a river. But, as previously stated, burning it would seem a lot less risky. Perhaps, he ran out of matches?^.^

Evidence suggests the money/bands were in a hot environment in 1972, maybe as high as 100F, probably being protected by the bag. Next comes diatom exposure during some year, probably at Tena Bar during some spring-summer cycle, before Feb 1980. 

This requires Tom or somebody to try and date the diatoms to a specific year, perhaps using Ca/Na data Tom collected ? In order to do that Tom's diatoms have to be compared to a larger survey of Columbia diatoms for the period 1970-1980. 

At some point the Ingram bundles separated from the bag by some event, probably at Tena Bar.

Cook spread the rumor that he had found two people who also found Cooper money at Tena Bar prior to the Ingram find. If true, those people need to offer their money so it can be compared to the Ingram bills. Likewise, fragments found in 1980 need to be found and examined, and compared to the Ingram bills for any differences,.

Without developing new-reliable forensic evidence, this matter will spin around and around forever on DB Cooper forums! The time is going to come where DBC conventions are empty and pointless, if that hasn't already arrived. Those media events have become as pointless as drinking 32 cups of water per day!  

Edited by georger
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7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That isn't a fair comment..

I shifted to a survival bias before I had a suspect... 

That shift was solely based on getting a better understanding on jump data, evidence, conditions and expert opinions. I had thought landing in a forest was deadly, that isn't the case. The terrain was mixed and landing in a tree isn't a big problem.

The lack of confirmed evidence on the ground is and always has been irrelevant.

 

Well, your particular suspect is within my “either died during this one or was caught or killed doing a next one” parameter. I’m not here as the voice of “died that night,” just of “did not live in silent obscurity for another 50 years, secretly laughing at all the fools who couldn’t find him.” 

What I do NOT think happened is that Cooper—who likely lost the money, or at the very least could not spend it—just went back to PTA meetings and catch with the kids. Your suspect or one like him would also explain the lack of a missing person and the lack of future engagement with/from Cooper, presuming he got caught or killed the next time. 

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4 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

Well, your particular suspect is within my “either died during this one or was caught or killed doing a next one” parameter. I’m not here as the voice of “died that night,” just of “did not live in silent obscurity for another 50 years, secretly laughing at all the fools who couldn’t find him.” 

What I do NOT think happened is that Cooper—who likely lost the money, or at the very least could not spend it—just went back to PTA meetings and catch with the kids. Your suspect or one like him would also explain the lack of a missing person and the lack of future engagement with/from Cooper, presuming he got caught or killed the next time. 

We have nothing on Cooper after he was seen on the plane.. 

He could have died in the jump, but not likely based on jump data, conditions and experts...

or he could have died within a year,, we have no idea.. the speculation on that is wide open..

I just don't think that unknown can be used to support the idea that he died in the jump.

There are too many unknown unknowns.

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6 hours ago, georger said:

Evidence suggests the money/bands were in a hot environment in 1972, maybe as high as 100F, probably being protected by the bag.

The hot environment was most likely from being in the sand. 

Sand can get hot..

 

"Climate and Average Weather Year Round in Portland Oregon, United States. In Portland, the summers are short, warm, dry, and mostly clear and the winters are very cold, wet, and overcast. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 36°F to 84°F and is rarely below 26°F or above 95°F."

"Sand can be over 100 degrees Fahrenheit when the outside temperature is only 75 degrees; indeed, when the ambient temperature is 90 degrees, the sand can be over 120 degrees. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6970441/

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The hot environment was most likely from being in the sand. 

Sand can get hot..

 

"Climate and Average Weather Year Round in Portland Oregon, United States. In Portland, the summers are short, warm, dry, and mostly clear and the winters are very cold, wet, and overcast. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 36°F to 84°F and is rarely below 26°F or above 95°F."

"Sand can be over 100 degrees Fahrenheit when the outside temperature is only 75 degrees; indeed, when the ambient temperature is 90 degrees, the sand can be over 120 degrees. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6970441/

That is possible IF the bands are near the surface. Then they bake.  But which summer ? The band clock is already running at Nov 24, 71 !  The clock started the day the bands were made... The bands dont have forever to wait. The clock constrains when the Cooper bands can turn gooey!!

In the meantime, new forensic evidence must be generated.

Edited by georger

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12 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Bands are long gone, nothing new will be generated...  unfortunately.

How do you know !?  I can think of three sets of files where band remnants might be. My feeling is, nobody cares. And nobody is looking. There are people in this case who dont want any new evidence - they dont want the boat rocked. It fits their agenda to have no more evidence unless it is them presenting it to the world ! These people always have been on a mission to be the sole managers of the case.

Someone could put a decent Bounty/Reward for any NEW evidence in the Cooper case!

Edited by georger

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26 minutes ago, georger said:

How do you know !?  I can think of three sets of files where band remnants might be. My feeling is, nobody cares. And nobody is looking. There are people in this case who dont want any new evidence - they dont want the boat rocked. It fits their agenda to have no more evidence unless it is them presenting it to the world ! These people always have been on a mission to be the sole managers of the case.

Someone could put a decent Bounty/Reward for any NEW evidence in the Cooper case!

Tom looked for info on them back when he had access.. he found nothing. Nothing in any of the later released files. There is no evidence of rubber bands collected with the money, all we have is the Ingram's statements about the condition of the TBAR money..

I know you want new evidence but it isn't coming. It has been over 50 years.. we have to work with what we have.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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16 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Dudeman. Would the actual chute ever pop out on impact or many years later if parts rusted and the container opened?

On more modern gear, the closing loop that the pin goes through is cloth, like a piece of line, or similar to a skinny shoelace. Sometimes those break on impact and the container comes open. But in those days the pack closures were metal cones with a hole drilled through them, and the ripcord pins went through those. So metal on metal closures, plus the fact that there are 3 or 4 pins on the backpack, very unlikely for it to open on impact.

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On 1/26/2023 at 8:18 PM, georger said:

Could he have dumped the money over the Columbia and jumped after the left turn indicating he was in Oregon, without any stair recoil/bump ?  

I don't think the weight of the money would affect it that much, it's his body weight leaving that allows the recoil to happen. However...

The stair recoil resulting in a pressure bump is an odd thing to me, and unless Cooper was familiar with the engineering involved, it would be a hard thing to predict. Again I refer to the Treat Williams movie, those stairs don't move very far or very fast. That could be due to a cameraman on them further up, as Flyjack pointed out, but I would think it might also have to do with whatever pressure is in the hydraulic system. If there is any to much pressure in them, I would think it would dampen the movement. I would think that you would have to pull the emergency release, disconnecting them from the hydraulics, in order for them to move freely enough to recoil that much or that fast. But Fly says that didn't happen. So hard to say, but I don't see the pressure bump as a predictable occurrence. Yet it also happened in at least one of the subsequent jumps (McCoy's?).

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On 1/26/2023 at 7:49 PM, FLYJACK said:

dudeman17,,

I have a question for you, one that has always intrigued me..

Put yourself in Cooper's position.. you are at the end of the stairs looking into broken clouds you can see the brightest lights but not the ground.

Where or when do you jump, if you pick a dark patch that might be water,, too bright and you land in a city..

What is the thought process and physical process to the jump and timing of the pull.. what would you do? 

FWW.. Hahneman went down the stairs and off backwards..

Spotting an exit point in order to land in a specific area requires more info and control than Cooper had. You'd want to see the ground, at least familiar reference points, you'd want to know the upper winds (to calculate drift), and you'd want to be able to ask the pilot for corrective heading adjustments. So he was pretty much rolling the dice as far as where he'd land.

If I were doing it, I'd want to know as much as possible about the surrounding terrain. How much was mountainous and tree'd as opposed to flatter and more open fields. How does that stuff relate to the city lights you might see? I'd want to take a test flight and time how long into the flight were the better areas, as opposed to the mts and lakes. But, how much variation is in the flight path from 'go to Mexico' and 'settle on Reno'? Having trouble with the stairs affects your timing. The whole thing is a crap shoot, especially in those days with rounds, especially with the non steerable ones he was given.

As far as getting off the stairs, you'd just have to do whatever worked. It depends on how far they opened. Once you're at the end, it's loud, it's cold, you really can't see where you are (in his weather conditions) so you might as well just go.

The timing of the pull... Hopefully you're at the requested 10 grand. But that's MSL. What is the terrain elevation below, specifically the highest points? I'd like to know what the lowest cloud base was. If I knew I had a couple thousand feet between the lowest cloud and the highest mtn, I'd fall through the clouds and see where I was. But rainy often means lower clouds, so you probably wouldn't have that luxury. So I'd time it to accommodate the highest terrain, unless I knew for sure I was elsewhere.

There are just so many variables that were out of his control, or that he would be able to see. You'd just want to prepare yourself by knowing the possible terrain as well as you could. The guy certainly had the magic combo of stupidity and balls.

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On 1/26/2023 at 10:11 AM, Math of Insects said:

It doesn’t matter. I’ve shared what I know, and so have you. Thanks for your perspective. Best to you.

Math of Insects, most of us are pretty much anonymous to each other. But we're all just friends, typing stuff about a common interest. I'm genuinely curious about what your experience is that gives you an opinion on bouncing bodies. Mine comes from watching people do it for forty years. BSBD!

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When the money was found, the FBI stated that it was in the original order as delivered to the hijacker.  (If I remember correctly, that original order was never released to the public.)  If you know the original order, you should be able to identify the top and bottom bill of each of the three 100 bill packets.  I wonder if this was ever done by the FBI and if anyone knows where any of these 6 bills are today.  The attempt at looking for a finger print with silver nitrate only makes sense if they did it on a top/bottom bill, why do it on a random bill in the middle.

If there's any chance of finding evidence of the rubber bands or even paper bank bands, it would come from forensically studying one of these 6 bills.  When Tom did his testing, I believe he was given 3 bills by the FBI and then later on 377s bill which he concluded was from the middle or inside of one of the packets.  I don't think Tom was given the original order, so he based that conclusion on other factors of the bills being studied.

Having said this, it's not clear to me that it's even a possibility for Tom to get access to the remaining bills that the FBI have and if they would identify the top and bottom bills.

For new or unexplored areas of evidence, the pickings are slim, but what about: 

- Pivoting to the packing cards that the hijacker would have had to have touched?  Could they lift a finger print and then rule it out as being from Cossey, Hayden or other FBI agents who may have touched the card ? Could there be touch DNA present ? 

- The shroud lines that he cut, the hijacker would had to have held the lines firmly when he was cutting the lines, you could figure out the most likely place he held the lines and then examine for skin cells where touch DNA could maybe be found?

These are long shots, just shooting from the hip here.

Edited by JAGdb
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4 hours ago, JAGdb said:

When the money was found, the FBI stated that it was in the original order as delivered to the hijacker.  (If I remember correctly, that original order was never released to the public.)  If you know the original order, you should be able to identify the top and bottom bill of each of the three 100 bill packets.  I wonder if this was ever done by the FBI and if anyone knows where any of these 6 bills are today.  The attempt at looking for a finger print with silver nitrate only makes sense if they did it on a top/bottom bill, why do it on a random bill in the middle.

If there's any chance of finding evidence of the rubber bands or even paper bank bands, it would come from forensically studying one of these 6 bills.  When Tom did his testing, I believe he was given 3 bills by the FBI and then later on 377s bill which he concluded was from the middle or inside of one of the packets.  I don't think Tom was given the original order, so he based that conclusion on other factors of the bills being studied.

Having said this, it's not clear to me that it's even a possibility for Tom to get access to the remaining bills that the FBI have and if they would identify the top and bottom bills.

For new or unexplored areas of evidence, the pickings are slim, but what about: 

- Pivoting to the packing cards that the hijacker would have had to have touched?  Could they lift a finger print and then rule it out as being from Cossey, Hayden or other FBI agents who may have touched the card ? Could there be touch DNA present ? 

- The shroud lines that he cut, the hijacker would had to have held the lines firmly when he was cutting the lines, you could figure out the most likely place he held the lines and then examine for skin cells where touch DNA could maybe be found?

These are long shots, just shooting from the hip here.

The FBI got the micro in the same order as given to Cooper, they re-ordered it alphanumerically for the release to the public,, we have never seen the original order. Tom was not given the original order and couldn't find it.

In the image of the twelve bundles we can assume two of those were top bills because one of the packets was missing bills. I have tried to reassemble the twelve piles into three packets based on shape but it is tough. The top left one was probably a top one. There is no indication of rubber bands on these.

1627309916_ScreenShot2022-10-20at9_38_24AM.png.64f815e1800bfe782fb0a8ecd34b45a4.png

This is that top left pile..  that line is not a rubber band it the flipped over image of a White House pillar.

-318c04b33e89b9ea.jpg.bf295ee514167261fdf80823ab047398.jpg

I think it was Tosaw's book,, he said there were rubber bands on only two of three packets.. that is consistent with rubber bands bundling three packets together.

If the rubber bands were used on the bundle of 3 packets then there would be one packet with no rubber band frags, one with rubber band frags on the top bill and one with rubber band frags on the bottom bill...

The FBI only has about 14 bills, some have deteriorated further.

The packing cards,, I did a FOIA for the packing cards, the FBI said check the FBI vault, they will put anything there.

The cut shroud lines might have DNA but they have been handled by many people.

The chute at the Wash Museum might have Cooper's DNA.. long shot though.

The best chance for new evidence is do a new DNA analysis of the tie, you might get 20 profiles now.. but if it wasn't Cooper's tie, that may not even help. He left the tie..  but that requires $$ and the co-operation of the FBI and they don't seem interested in solving this. 

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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11 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

The guy certainly had the magic combo of stupidity and balls.

Ceiling was 5000 ft,, broken clouds and intermittent rain.. the jump was at 10000 feet but the terrain range was about 500-1200 ft. elevation. He probably could not see the ground but could see the brightest lights. He would know if he was over Vancouver/Portland.

Titanium/Antimony balls,,, but the witnesses said he wasn't a bad ass type. An unmemorable geeky guy.. not mentally ill either,, most hijackers were mentally ill.

It sure sounds like it was something done by somebody who didn't really care about himself any longer, a jump right into the blind unknown... maybe at late 40's he was extremely desperate for money or had a terminal disease.

Edited by FLYJACK
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Well this took quite a while. But I found color footage of all the passengers coming off the bus into the airport. Turns out that the first four people in that clip are FBI/NWO officials. Anyways, this was difficult to do but I was able to match up who was who by looking up military records for heights, stalking Facebooks, using newspaper photos, yearbook photos, etc. But this is all of them. They are listed in the order that they enter the terminal in the video. I'm also including the full color video.

305Passengers.jpg

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I'd add that the final guy behind Mr. Cummings is either another FBI/NWO guy or perhaps the bus driver. I've been trying like hell to find an image of Elwood "Al" Lee, but have been unsuccessful. Was curious to see if he was one of the men in the front. Probably unlikely that he'd be part of herding the passengers around, but you never know. 

 "The Cowboy" it appears, was Robert Cummings. It wouldn't have been Daniel Rice since he had a first class ticket and would have been hassling Alice, not Tina. So it must have been Cummings. 

Edited by olemisscub

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5 hours ago, JAGdb said:

When the money was found, the FBI stated that it was in the original order as delivered to the hijacker.  (If I remember correctly, that original order was never released to the public.)  If you know the original order, you should be able to identify the top and bottom bill of each of the three 100 bill packets.  I wonder if this was ever done by the FBI and if anyone knows where any of these 6 bills are today.  The attempt at looking for a finger print with silver nitrate only makes sense if they did it on a top/bottom bill, why do it on a random bill in the middle.

If there's any chance of finding evidence of the rubber bands or even paper bank bands, it would come from forensically studying one of these 6 bills.  When Tom did his testing, I believe he was given 3 bills by the FBI and then later on 377s bill which he concluded was from the middle or inside of one of the packets.  I don't think Tom was given the original order, so he based that conclusion on other factors of the bills being studied.

Having said this, it's not clear to me that it's even a possibility for Tom to get access to the remaining bills that the FBI have and if they would identify the top and bottom bills.

For new or unexplored areas of evidence, the pickings are slim, but what about: 

- Pivoting to the packing cards that the hijacker would have had to have touched?  Could they lift a finger print and then rule it out as being from Cossey, Hayden or other FBI agents who may have touched the card ? Could there be touch DNA present ? 

- The shroud lines that he cut, the hijacker would had to have held the lines firmly when he was cutting the lines, you could figure out the most likely place he held the lines and then examine for skin cells where touch DNA could maybe be found?

These are long shots, just shooting from the hip here.

I think Tom looked for band pieces but wasnt successful. I asked Brian to examine his evidence folders and describe what (debris) he was seeing. Has anyone examined his folders?  The FBI has its folders.  Then there are the bills (in evidence folders) awarded to Royal Crown Insurance. Those folders/bills were shipped off to Royal Crown in NYC by the company's attorney in Portland. Nobody has any idea what happened to them or where the bills and folders would be today. 

A numismatist-dealer tried to collect as many Cooper bills as he could locate, several years ago. Then it turned out the collector-dealer wasnt even aware of the Cooper money Court settlement - so I sent him a copy. I havent talked to that person in several years. I dont know if he made any progress tracking the Royal Crown bills/folders ... I guess its time to get an update on that if possible.

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1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I'd add that the final guy behind Mr. Cummings is either another FBI/NWO guy or perhaps the bus driver. I've been trying like hell to find an image of Elwood "Al" Lee, but have been unsuccessful. Was curious to see if he was one of the men in the front. Probably unlikely that he'd be part of herding the passengers around, but you never know. 

 "The Cowboy" it appears, was Robert Cummings. It wouldn't have been Daniel Rice since he had a first class ticket and would have been hassling Alice, not Tina. So it must have been Cummings. 

Al Lee probably stayed with the aircraft until it was refueled and the stairs were removed.  And I imagine the Seattle detective that had driven out to the aircraft with him (and the money, parachutes, and other items) remained with him.

Elwood Martian Lee is a surprisingly common name.  I have not been able to locate him for certain either.  But the recent poster here who located his secretary might be able to get some additional information from her about what happened to him after he left NWA.

Also, anyone having contacts in the Minneapolis area might be able to track down the family of Soderlind and see if he left them anything related to the hijacking.  Both Soderlind and Lee were NWA pilots, and they would undoubtedly keep a copy of everything related to the hijacking and flight path they could get their hands on.

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12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Titanium/Antimony balls,,, but the witnesses said he wasn't a bad ass type.

A lot of people with brass ones don't necessarily act like badasses. Many people in adventure sports - skydivers, base jumpers, extreme skiers, big wave surfers, big wall climbers, aerobatic pilots... and the like, even some extremely badass military people I've met, people with balls and nerves of steel, don't act like badasses. A lot of them are pretty chill, have great senses of humor, laugh a lot like giddy kids having too much fun.

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15 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

A lot of people with brass ones don't necessarily act like badasses. Many people in adventure sports - skydivers, base jumpers, extreme skiers, big wave surfers, big wall climbers, aerobatic pilots... and the like, even some extremely badass military people I've met, people with balls and nerves of steel, don't act like badasses. A lot of them are pretty chill, have great senses of humor, laugh a lot like giddy kids having too much fun.

If we had some concrete idea about what or who and where to look, but we don't! Maybe a white guy with a Spanish ancestry?  A person with an athletic or military record? A police record? Or a person with none of these traits finally moved by desperation to do something few people who attempt. If we take Cooper's words at face value he had a grudge or a personal cause that finally moved him to challenge the system openly, to score a point for the little guy. "But not against your airlines, plural'. Maybe against all airlines? Maybe against the Air Force? But definitely in behalf of the 'little guy' ?  See what the 'little guy' can do when push comes to shove ? Somebody definitely in tune with 'the system' of the 1970s with the Vietnam War closing down.

Cooper told us that as far as he was concerned, his act was political, whether authority figures want to admit it or not. 

Cooper was either 'somebody' or 'nobody'!  Cooper hunters and the FBI cant seem to make up their minds who and what he was.

Ten steps forward, five steps backwards! Since no easy evidence maybe a reluctance to even pursue this, since no one was hurt or killed ?  Thus a voluminous set of records going nowhere with no Cooper at the end of it all ! Ships passing in the night - what was it ?

Edited by georger

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12 minutes ago, georger said:

 "But not against your airlines, plural'. Maybe against all airlines?

It wasn't plural is was possessive..  

Both airline and airlines is used.. 

465775721_ScreenShot2023-01-29at12_06_17PM.png.2dcdd8cfecd95cfa43b23b954b36e76e.png

 

The FBI docs also use the proper name.

243891339_ScreenShot2023-01-29at12_03_56PM.png.4fbb04ff683eb9c380a6d3b3f6eb0615.png

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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