DB Cooper

[olemisscub 461]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

Respectfully, that just does not make sense. She was shown suspect images for years.. AFTER she claimed she didn't see Cooper's face.

I suppose I don't have to stare someone down to know essentially what they looked like if I was shown photos of a group of mine. It's still weird, I agree. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

I mean, maybe we should just take her at her word. Maybe she just kept her eyes front the whole time she was seated and was scared to possibly antagonize him by looking at him. Then later on when she's ferrying the parachutes and even when he offers her the money, he may have been purposefully not meeting his gaze during that time. 

Flo seemed to get the best look at him because her chief interactions with him all came from before he was a threat to her. Alice may have also got some decent looks at him since she no doubt glanced back there many times during the flight just to make sure everything was OK. 

If that is true then why was she the primary for sketch A and the go to for vetting suspect images..

It can't be both ways... either she saw his face well enough for a sketch and vetting suspect images or she didn't.. as she claimed twice.

IMO, She is hiding info about Cooper from the FBI.

 

Flo,,,

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

I’ve spoken to his son Lyle Jr and his granddaughter Amber extensively. His death is it’s own mystery I’ve went down the rabbit hole on. They believe and I tend to agree with them after conducting my own research into LC’s crash in Honduras that the CIA took him out. I reached out to the lone survivor of the crash Victor Vinson aka Cajun Vic who somehow thought to take his seatbelt off as the plane was going down which allowed him to be ejected out miraculously saving his life. I found it really interesting that the day after we spoke on the phone the page on his website for his name brand chain of Cajun food trucks that detailed his entire story of the crash was removed from the site. Here is Vic undergoing jump training with Lyle earlier on in that trip they took to Honduras. 

This is a crazy rabbit hole..

Plane crash story..

https://web.archive.org/web/20160323230449/http://cajunvic.com/site/Planecrash.html
 

plane owner, W.H.Kivett, HR-AFQ

Personal Information

WILLIAM HERBERT KIVETT 

Airman opted-out of releasing address
Medical Information:
No Medical Information Available
Certificates
PRIVATE PILOT
Certificates Description
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT  
Date of Issue: 8/18/1964

Ratings: 
PRIVATE PILOT
  AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

 

William Herbert Kivett, Billy returned home to Honduras and a career as a governmental advisor, environmentalist and entrepreneur. He advised mayors on proper planning and brought electricity and water to remote areas of his country. Billy was instrumental in preserving Honduras’ largest lake, Yojoa, and starting a foundation to save trees. He opened three green houses and hired only single parents with the agreement they would put their kids in school. As a businessman, he ran an airline, sold opals and raised pigs, starting with five and increasing to 1,000 before selling out. Billy also founded the Rotary Club in Tegucigalpa. He died from cancer in Honduras in 2004 at the age of 62. Billy had a master ofregional and city planning from OU (1965). Interesting Lesser-known fact: When flying supplies to troops during the 1969 war with El Salvador, he encountered bad visibility and was asked his location. His reply: “If we see bullet holes in the wings, we are definitely over enemy territory.”

 

[olemisscub 461]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Flo,,,

Interesting that even there, the FBI seems to be making the same mistake we have been making: that Flo was talking about Bing. 

[CooperNWO305 146]

Comments on a couple of the posts.

Tina may have known Cooper before the hijacking (unlikely, but I guess possible. He did get the back seat).  I'd say that if she is hiding something, it is more likely that she was manipulated by Cooper, or just thought he was a nice guy, maybe she made a bad spur of the moment decision and did something, maybe small, but still something she had to lie about). Fly you mentioned her family doing a search, I'd be curious to hear what that was about.  Flo did say in Skyjack that Tina seemed to be hiding something.  My opinion is that Tina was put on a pedestal and that in my mind she knows more than she said.

Flo and Unsolved Mysteries: Those TV show producers are pros at editing and showing you what they want. I always got the sense that they wanted to push that new sketch, which looks like a drawing from a 2nd grader. I'd like to see the entire conversation.  What I did get out of it is that Flo was adamant about remembering his eyes and eyebrows.  She has dark brown eyes and I have to imagine someone who sees brown eyes everyday in the mirror knows what brown eyes look like.  Are we for 100% certain that no one else saw him with his glasses off on the plane?  Dennis Lysne and Hal Williams must have seen him with glasses off, and people walking to the plane.  If the cabin was dark (supposedly) then how does he put the chute on and tie the money bag? He must have been real good at it to do it with his sunglasses on.  I think he took them off at times.

The Lyle thing. Fly how does this CIA thing fit into Lyle's report about a guy visiting Elsinore?  Also, those pics from Nicky are interesting in that they seem to show guys with full parachute rigs doing parachute training, but not actually jumping out of a plane.  That has been one of my theories, that Cooper could have been trained in the basics, but never actually jumped, or only jumped once or twice.

Edited January 10, 2023 by CooperNWO305

[Nicholas Broughton 52]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This is a crazy rabbit hole..

Plane crash story..

https://web.archive.org/web/20160323230449/http://cajunvic.com/site/Planecrash.html
 

plane owner, W.H.Kivett, HR-AFQ

Personal Information

WILLIAM HERBERT KIVETT 

Airman opted-out of releasing address
Medical Information:
No Medical Information Available
Certificates
PRIVATE PILOT
Certificates Description
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT  
Date of Issue: 8/18/1964

Ratings: 
PRIVATE PILOT
  AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

 

William Herbert Kivett, Billy returned home to Honduras and a career as a governmental advisor, environmentalist and entrepreneur. He advised mayors on proper planning and brought electricity and water to remote areas of his country. Billy was instrumental in preserving Honduras’ largest lake, Yojoa, and starting a foundation to save trees. He opened three green houses and hired only single parents with the agreement they would put their kids in school. As a businessman, he ran an airline, sold opals and raised pigs, starting with five and increasing to 1,000 before selling out. Billy also founded the Rotary Club in Tegucigalpa. He died from cancer in Honduras in 2004 at the age of 62. Billy had a master ofregional and city planning from OU (1965). Interesting Lesser-known fact: When flying supplies to troops during the 1969 war with El Salvador, he encountered bad visibility and was asked his location. His reply: “If we see bullet holes in the wings, we are definitely over enemy territory.”

 

Yes that’s the page I was referring to, good find fly. Interesting about the plane registration. Lyle told his good friend John Fairbanks that he had purchased the 180. Here is that correspondence and a picture of Vic in the plane (Cessna 180) with with him. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 654]

47 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Comments on a couple of the posts.

Tina may have known Cooper before the hijacking (unlikely, but I guess possible. He did get the back seat).  I'd say that if she is hiding something, it is more likely that she was manipulated by Cooper, or just thought he was a nice guy, maybe she made a bad spur of the moment decision and did something, maybe small, but still something she had to lie about). Fly you mentioned her family doing a search, I'd be curious to hear what that was about.  Flo did say in Skyjack that Tina seemed to be hiding something.  My opinion is that Tina was put on a pedestal and that in my mind she knows more than she said.

Flo and Unsolved Mysteries: Those TV show producers are pros at editing and showing you what they want. I always got the sense that they wanted to push that new sketch, which looks like a drawing from a 2nd grader. I'd like to see the entire conversation.  What I did get out of it is that Flo was adamant about remembering his eyes and eyebrows.  She has dark brown eyes and I have to imagine someone who sees brown eyes everyday in the mirror knows what brown eyes look like.  Are we for 100% certain that no one else saw him with his glasses off on the plane?  Dennis Lysne and Hal Williams must have seen him with glasses off, and people walking to the plane.  If the cabin was dark (supposedly) then how does he put the chute on and tie the money bag? He must have been real good at it to do it with his sunglasses on.  I think he took them off at times.

The Lyle thing. Fly how does this CIA thing fit into Lyle's report about a guy visiting Elsinore?  Also, those pics from Nicky are interesting in that they seem to show guys with full parachute rigs doing parachute training, but not actually jumping out of a plane.  That has been one of my theories, that Cooper could have been trained in the basics, but never actually jumped, or only jumped once or twice.

I don't believe Tina knew Cooper prior to the hijacking.. and she wasn't in on it.

Tina's camp didn't do a search they released a narrative to pre-empt a large scale ground search. 

IMO, it was a CYA move in case they found Cooper and/or the money.

It is getting really hard to keep straight who said what about each of the sketches.. redactions don't help.

Lyle was an FBI informant prior to NORJAK, I posted proof. It was related to his foreign contacts, mostly Russians. This is odd because that is the CIA's turf... I never found any proof he was connected to CIA but that may have come later and the CIA was all over Central America..

Ex military guys travelling the world working humanitarian missions screams CIA.. (Kivett)

Edited January 10, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Interesting that even there, the FBI seems to be making the same mistake we have been making: that Flo was talking about Bing. 

'This' may have nothing to do with Cooper or with a description of Cooper. 'This' may be a competition between Flo and Tina, even resentment by Flo against Tina. An attempt by Flo at rehabilitation of her image since it was Flo who fell apart and became useless, and had to be removed from the scene! This may be a personal competition on Flo's part which Tina has no control over.

Wasn't it Flo who became speechless and useless, literally. Flo is always 'adamant' and a 'complainer' ! The smartest person in the room etc.

If you are going to base 'Tina is hiding something' on Florence's hysterics, also say 'Tina is actually a brunette, not a blonde. In that sense yes, Tina is hiding something. Tina is reluctant to say: 'Flo is a bitch and an idiot! and unreliable'. I think this is a about Flo wanting notoriety and importance after the fact - 

This issue of different impressions and descriptions does not resolve itself by claiming 'Tina is hiding something' but by looking at the personalities involved, whose actions were credible and not, and by who has received most of the press attention vs who has not'.

'Tina is hiding something' is a cheap ploy by outsiders: Galen Cook, Tosaw, and Bruce Smith' claim, and a pure manipulation to get Tina to talk (to them exclusively)!  This is pure politics, is what it is. Smith even wanted Tina to assign him her press agent ?  How crazy can people get! ????????? 

Yes, Tina is hiding something. Her credibility and her sanity. Flo is the person now suddenly competing for credibility, and rehabilitation ?  This socalled conflict over a reliable Cooper description was inevitable given the radically different personalities involved. 

The difference is someone describing a stereotype vs someone describing a living breathing hijacker. You might just as well ask Rataczak to give a description because he was a neutral party who never saw Cooper at all!  Rataczak's description is best!

The issue about descriptions is an issue about personalities competing.

Edited January 10, 2023 by georger

[georger 194]

12 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't believe Tina knew Cooper prior to the hijacking.. and she wasn't in on it.

Tina's camp didn't do a search they released a narrative to pre-empt a large scale ground search. 

IMO, it was a CYA move in case they found Cooper and/or the money.

It is getting really hard to keep straight who said what about each of the sketches.. redactions don't help.

Lyle was an FBI informant prior to NORJAK, I posted proof. It was related to his foreign contacts, mostly Russians. This is odd because that is the CIA's turf... I never found any proof he was connected to CIA but that may have come later and the CIA was all over Central America..

Ex military guys travelling the world working humanitarian missions screams CIA.. (Kivett)

Camels and bananas work for the C I A !    Everthang is C  I  A ... even Wonder Bread !

[olemisscub 461]

50 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Are we for 100% certain that no one else saw him with his glasses off on the plane?  Dennis Lysne and Hal Williams must have seen him with glasses off, and people walking to the plane.  If the cabin was dark (supposedly) then how does he put the chute on and tie the money bag? He must have been real good at it to do it with his sunglasses on.  I think he took them off at times.

 

Lynse mentions that he didn't remember him wearing glasses (so this presumably would include wearing sunglasses). However, he doesn't say anything about his eye color. He likely just didn't pay attention to it. Why would he have? Williams doesn't mention anything about sunglasses one way or the other. I can't imagine him wearing them in the terminal. That would have called unnecessary attention to himself. 

I believe this passage from Flo's 302 indicates that he took his glasses off for a while after the passengers left. 

 

[georger 194]

16 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Lynse mentions that he didn't remember him wearing glasses (so this presumably would include wearing sunglasses). However, he doesn't say anything about his eye color. He likely just didn't pay attention to it. Why would he have? Williams doesn't mention anything about sunglasses one way or the other. I can't imagine him wearing them in the terminal. That would have called unnecessary attention to himself. 

I believe this passage from Flo's 302 indicates that he took his glasses off for a while after the passengers left. 

 

There it is, if true. Stated in a neutral setting - no press, no cameras . . . none of the crew interviews by agents pitches one crew member against another. Each interview seems neutral. 

[Nicholas Broughton 52]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't believe Tina knew Cooper prior to the hijacking.. and she wasn't in on it.

Tina's camp didn't do a search they released a narrative to pre-empt a large scale ground search. 

IMO, it was a CYA move in case they found Cooper and/or the money.

It is getting really hard to keep straight who said what about each of the sketches.. redactions don't help.

Lyle was an FBI informant prior to NORJAK, I posted proof. It was related to his foreign contacts, mostly Russians. This is odd because that is the CIA's turf... I never found any proof he was connected to CIA but that may have come later and the CIA was all over Central America..

Ex military guys travelling the world working humanitarian missions screams CIA.. (Kivett)

It’s my understanding that Lyle was doing aerial surveillance/photography for the CIA  on that leg of the trip. According to one of the news articles that came out in the local paper, Vic had an embassy rep show up as soon as he got to the hospital. That to me is very telling he was CIA. Here is testimony from somebody that saw Lyle in Honduras the night before the crash. He was supposed to be on the plane but overslept… but notice how he refers to them as contractors. 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Nicholas Broughton

[georger 194]

10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't believe Tina knew Cooper prior to the hijacking.. and she wasn't in on it.

Tina's camp didn't do a search they released a narrative to pre-empt a large scale ground search. 

IMO, it was a CYA move in case they found Cooper and/or the money.

It is getting really hard to keep straight who said what about each of the sketches.. redactions don't help.

Lyle was an FBI informant prior to NORJAK, I posted proof. It was related to his foreign contacts, mostly Russians. This is odd because that is the CIA's turf... I never found any proof he was connected to CIA but that may have come later and the CIA was all over Central America..

Ex military guys travelling the world working humanitarian missions screams CIA.. (Kivett)

Tina's camp?   Tina's circle?   

Tina had a political action committee ? Who was her agent ? 

Edited January 11, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Tina's camp?   Tina's circle?   

Tina had a political action committee ? Who was her agent ? 

Sure, it was Tina's sister and FBI agent brother in law..

[Math of Insects 95]

Just throwing this out there, since it tangentially applies to this Tina discussion, though it more directly relates to some statements made in the FB group, which I stopped participating in. 

The term used when people seem "off" or evasive, and we conclude some kind of guilt, is "demeanor evidence." Our criminal court system and even the 6th Amendment are built least partially around this concept. And now we've added factors like "microexpressions" to supposedly reveal some inner truth or turmoil. It's the "They're hiding something" thing.

But it turns out we suck at this. Study after study has shown that 1) microexpressions and other post-event patterns reveal dick, and 2) we are exactly as likely to be wrong when interpreting demeanor, as right.

Worse, cops and other professional interrogators are exactly as bad as everyone else; they are right just about 50% of the time, which is the rate of chance. And worse yet, they are more confident that they are right than everyone else, so sometimes the results can be disastrous. 

I'm not talking about actions--doing a Google search for how to dispose of a 115-pound woman's body after your 115-pound wife suddenly disappears for example. I'm talking about those "intangibles" that make us think someone is guilty. We turn out to be very bad at correctly interpreting those, and our skill is completely unrelated to our confidence around it.
 

 

[olemisscub 461]

22 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

If the cabin was dark (supposedly) then how does he put the chute on and tie the money bag? He must have been real good at it to do it with his sunglasses on.  I think he took them off at times.

 

Was looking today to try and pin down exactly when the cabin lights were turned off and my conclusion is that Tina turned them off on her way to the cockpit. My thought process here:

- Cabin lights off is part of his final instructions he gave Tina (after the chutes were aboard). It is listed in the middle of his don't go over 10,000 feet/flaps down instructions. 

- Tina's 302 mentions the lights being out during the section describing her moving toward the cockpit and closing the curtain. 

- Tosaw (whom I've increasingly found to be a very reliable narrator) says that Tina turned them off after closing the curtain. 

[CooperNWO305 146]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Sure, it was Tina's sister and FBI agent brother in law..

Could Tina have walked off the plane with any money?  A young woman in a stressful moment may have said things, done things, etc. that she wishes she hadn't.  The FBI would not have had much sympathy for any mistakes, no matter how much of a hero she was. Lying to the FBI is a huge deal, so it could be as simple as her older sister and brother in law telling her that something small was really not that small.  Certainly if the money bag was found along with a body and it was tied shut, but was missing $6000, then there might be an issue.

It could be nothing.  However, if you told me that Flo or Alice were hiding something, I'd be surprised. If you told me it was Tina, then I might pause for a second.

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Could Tina have walked off the plane with any money?  A young woman in a stressful moment may have said things, done things, etc. that she wishes she hadn't.  The FBI would not have had much sympathy for any mistakes, no matter how much of a hero she was. Lying to the FBI is a huge deal, so it could be as simple as her older sister and brother in law telling her that something small was really not that small.  Certainly if the money bag was found along with a body and it was tied shut, but was missing $6000, then there might be an issue.

It could be nothing.  However, if you told me that Flo or Alice were hiding something, I'd be surprised. If you told me it was Tina, then I might pause for a second.

It is possible and worth considering..  proving something like that is nearly impossible.

Another scenario is that Cooper put some money in a stews unattended purse..  they wouldn't have noticed it until much later.

[georger 194]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Sure, it was Tina's sister and FBI agent brother in law..

Family is not a "political action committee' or the "CIA" !  She also belonged to the church, had a faithe, .... and so it goes. She could ride a bicycle and had other skills. . . . she was part of the NWO Family. . . . . .

I dont think the self-appointed Morality Police   have anything on Tina!  tHE hole issue is ludicrous.

Edited January 11, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, georger said:

Family is not a "political action committee' or the "CIA" !  She also belonged to the church, had a faithe, .... and so it goes. She could ride a bicycle and had other skills. . . . she was part of the NWO Family. . . . . .

I dont think the self-appointed Morality Police   have anything on Tina!

I never said it was a PAC or CIA,, I said her "camp"

They were protecting her and front ran a massive search operation, FACT

 

[Math of Insects 95]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I never said it was a PAC or CIA,, I said her "camp"

They were protecting her and front ran a massive search operation, FACT

 

She was a 22-year-old girl who had just been in a terrorist event. Her big sister was married to an FBI agent. It is completely understandable that they would have done anything they knew to do to protect her or take care of her. It doesn't have to mean she is hiding anything. If they hadn't helped, the same argument could be made that "even her FBI-agent brother-in-law knew she was guilty, he stayed far away from her." 

Going farther, if he, by virtue of his job, knew she was in trouble, and helped her avoid detection, his career would have been over. Is there anything to indicate he was crooked and reckless?

A letter to a friend that says "I may be going away for awhile" or something...now we're in different waters. Big sister and her husband who knows the best ways to keep his little sister-in-law out of harm's way? That seems unremarkable. 

[FLYJACK 654]

16 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

She was a 22-year-old girl who had just been in a terrorist event. Her big sister was married to an FBI agent. It is completely understandable that they would have done anything they knew to do to protect her or take care of her. It doesn't have to mean she is hiding anything. If they hadn't helped, the same argument could be made that "even her FBI-agent brother-in-law knew she was guilty, he stayed far away from her." 

Going farther, if he, by virtue of his job, knew she was in trouble, and helped her avoid detection, his career would have been over. Is there anything to indicate he was crooked and reckless?

A letter to a friend that says "I may be going away for awhile" or something...now we're in different waters. Big sister and her husband who knows the best ways to keep his little sister-in-law out of harm's way? That seems unremarkable. 

Acting on behalf of a family member is understandable.. front running a search isn't..

[FLYJACK 654]

Ulis cracks, shifts talking points, walks back suspect by now claiming anybody at Rem Cru could have acquired Titanium Antimony particles even the secretary...  maybe he realized Petersen's hair was parted on the wrong side.

 

[Math of Insects 95]

Worst non-female suspect in history.  The family is owed an apology.

[georger 194]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I never said it was a PAC or CIA,, I said her "camp"

They were protecting her and front ran a massive search operation, FACT

 

"front ran a massive search operation, FACT"

If you are talking about a group of people - why not say so! Name these people!  State your claim in specifics otherwise this is just one more claim about Tina from the peanut gallery .

Edited January 12, 2023 by georger