DB Cooper

[Math of Insects 76]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So far, I haven't found it as an ingredient for matches, Tom tested a period lighter and it was negative..

Controls are ideal but not practical.. there are over 100,000 particles on the stubs and those stubs don't even cover the entire tie,,,

The particles and combinations are beyond any ability to implement controls.. far too many variables

Controls do let you know which particles are truly outliers or noteworthy, and which would be on anything from that environment, or circumstances, or even blank lab slides/stubs. 

[FLYJACK 502]

2 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Controls do let you know which particles are truly outliers or noteworthy, and which would be on anything from that environment, or circumstances, or even blank lab slides/stubs. 

How do you know, you can't.. controls are an assumption based on knowns.

Controls here are very limiting.. there are too many combinations and potential sources..

You just can't create controls for a particle in the mid 60's.. you don't know what you don't know.

This is the logical flaw Ulis has.. he claims he searched and the patent was the only source for those 3 particles.. His "control" is flawed because he assumes he has all the information needed, of course he doesn't.

In regards to the tie particles in the 60's controls become subjective limited to assumptions.. they are not certain.

Sure, desiring controls is ideal, but it just isn't practical in this case. 

[Nicholas Broughton 33]

56 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

Brass, copper, lead, and an element soup associated with gunshot residue all show up on the tie. 
 

 

[Math of Insects 76]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

How do you know, you can't.. controls are an assumption based on knowns.

Controls here are very limiting.. there are too many combinations and potential sources..

You just can't create controls for a particle in the mid 60's.. you don't know what you don't know.

This is the logical flaw Ulis has.. he claims he searched and the patent was the only source for those 3 particles.. His "control" is flawed because he assumes he has all the information needed, of course he doesn't.

In regards to the tie particles in the 60's controls become subjective limited to assumptions.. they are not certain.

Sure, desiring controls is ideal, but it just isn't practical in this case. 

We disagree on this. Blank slides, blank stubs, different ties of the same material, anything that's been in an airplane, anything associated with a smoker, anything associated with those chutes, anything associated with seats under the exhaust system...these all help rule out certain items that may look significant but are not. Not running control tests alongside the particle analysis is IMO inexcusable. Lest we forget, the DNA testing was scuttled by material on the slide from the lab. 

I am not saying we start with fishy particles and go looking to see what else has them. I am saying test ANYTHING else in the realm and get a sense of whether or not those particles are truly fishy after all. This has to be done for the rest to mean anything.

[FLYJACK 502]

2 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

We disagree on this. Blank slides, blank stubs, different ties of the same material, anything that's been in an airplane, anything associated with a smoker, anything associated with those chutes, anything associated with seats under the exhaust system...these all help rule out certain items that may look significant but are not. Not running control tests alongside the particle analysis is IMO inexcusable. Lest we forget, the DNA testing was scuttled by material on the slide from the lab. 

I am not saying we start with fishy particles and go looking to see what else has them. I am saying test ANYTHING else in the realm and get a sense of whether or not those particles are truly fishy after all. This has to be done for the rest to mean anything.

We disagree on the degree if usefulness in this case..

The particles are not like DNA.. which has one source,, the particle combinations and sources are virtually limitless and unknown. Controls are only as good as your ability to think them up.. 

There is no way to create adequate controls for over 100,000 identified and probably another 400,000 more unidentified particles deposited on a tie in the 60's over a 7 year period.. the controls you can come up with are extremely limiting and inconclusive.

You keep repeating we need controls which is true,, but in this case it is not practical and has limited effect.

Controls are effective when you know all the variables..

The biggest clue from this tie is the wide variety of particles.. it was not from a single environment.

[Math of Insects 76]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

We disagree on the degree if usefulness in this case..

The particles are not like DNA.. which has one source,, the particle combinations and sources are virtually limitless and unknown. Controls are only as good as your ability to think them up.. 

There is no way to create adequate controls for over 100,000 identified and probably another 400,000 more unidentified particles deposited on a tie in the 60's over a 7 year period.. the controls you can come up with are extremely limiting and inconclusive.

You keep repeating we need controls which is true,, but in this case it is not practical and has limited effect.

Controls are effective when you know all the variables..

The biggest clue from this tie is the wide variety of particles.. it was not from a single environment.

All of that may be true, we don’t know. But on the other hand, if Tom tests your polyester Dacron tie, and the particle profile is exactly the same as the one he got from Cooper’s, that let us know that the particles are not as meaningful as we thought. The rest becomes moot.

Anyway, we’ve beat that horse enough. We see this one differently. That’s what makes the world go round…

[kcaero 3]

The rig that Dan Gryer came up with is a combination of  an NB8 container( extended) and a B12 harness.Now pay close attention here..look at the Ripcord handle.That diagonal tubing inside of the Ripcord,that indicates it is an NB8 ripcord.Why is this significant? The NB 8 has a closer pin spacing than a B12/B4.You have to use the NB8 Ripcord. An NB 8 Ripcord WILL NOT work on a B12 container .

Edited November 30, 2022 by kcaero

[FLYJACK 502]

4 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

All of that may be true, we don’t know. But on the other hand, if Tom tests your polyester Dacron tie, and the particle profile is exactly the same as the one he got from Cooper’s, that let us know that the particles are not as meaningful as we thought. The rest becomes moot.

Anyway, we’ve beat that horse enough. We see this one differently. That’s what makes the world go round…

At best, it may tell us something about a few of the particles.. that is my point.

It is very limiting.. you think you can control for 500,000 particles.. most unidentified.

 

[Andrade1812 30]

27 minutes ago, kcaero said:

The rig that Dan Gryer came up with is a combination of  an NB8 container( extended) and a B12 harness.Now pay close attention here..look at the Ripcord handle.That diagonal tubing inside of the Ripcord,that indicates it is an NB8 ripcord.Why is this significant? The NB 8 has a closer pin spacing than a B12/B4.You have to use the NB8 Ripcord. An NB 8 Ripcord WILL NOT work on a B12 container .

Does this mean that parachute is functional? (besides the age)

[georger 122]

58 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

All of that may be true, we don’t know. But on the other hand, if Tom tests your polyester Dacron tie, and the particle profile is exactly the same as the one he got from Cooper’s, that let us know that the particles are not as meaningful as we thought. The rest becomes moot.

Anyway, we’ve beat that horse enough. We see this one differently. That’s what makes the world go round…

Moreover, are there disparate or even contrary groups of particles on the tie ?  Particles that should not or cannot normally be found together ?  I am suspicious that this tie does not represent a tie normally worn in day-to-day work life, but is a cast-away that Cooper picked up and perhaps even intentionally left to confuse investigators. We know, for example, that one of Cooper's primary concerns when he got on the plane was the presence of air marshals, so he was very aware of the law enforcement implications of what he was doing. He knew LE would be checking for evidence after he left. Its not beyond reason that he tried to cover his tracks or confuse evidence collectors. He may have intentionally picked a tie or doctored a tie and left it, designed to confuse and boggle the minds of investigators.

I do not buy the Carr narrative that Cooper was a dumb ass and an amateur! I think Cooper considered risk assessment and his hijacking was no mere stunt by an uneducated person. He went to some length to build a device that looked like a bomb with correct wiring and wire coding, he picked the right plane in the right place at the right time, and he factually left no evidence that could be tracked directly to him. I think Cooper was a thoughtful person ... 

Is the tie an improbable assemblage of disparate particles not normally found in common existence?  Was the tie prepared in advance for the hijacking?

Was the tie a plant?  Cooper took his bomb with him so it could not be examined and traced!

Edited November 30, 2022 by georger

[georger 122]

45 minutes ago, kcaero said:

The rig that Dan Gryer came up with is a combination of  an NB8 container( extended) and a B12 harness.Now pay close attention here..look at the Ripcord handle.That diagonal tubing inside of the Ripcord,that indicates it is an NB8 ripcord.Why is this significant? The NB 8 has a closer pin spacing than a B12/B4.You have to use the NB8 Ripcord. An NB 8 Ripcord WILL NOT work on a B12 container .

So Cossey packed an unusable chute that did not work ! ?   Cossey packed the chute for Mr Hayden, not for DB Cooper!

Edited November 30, 2022 by georger

[georger 122]

We already have one set of controls operating with the tie - Boeing workplace ties vs the Cooper tie. That report alone makes the Cooper tie special ... off the charts? 

[JAGdb 38]

Over Thanksgiving, I was able to sit down and talk with my father about his time at Boeing, as well as General Dynamics, in the 70s.   I asked him if he still had a tie.....said he was going to check, wouldn't hold my breath on this but if anything comes of it I will post it to the board to see if it would be useful.

I believe that Fly has already sent another tie to TK as another data point, just waiting on the broken SEM part or something, hope it's not coming from China !

[georger 122]

13 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Over Thanksgiving, I was able to sit down and talk with my father about his time at Boeing, as well as General Dynamics, in the 70s.   I asked him if he still had a tie.....said he was going to check, wouldn't hold my breath on this but if anything comes of it I will post it to the board to see if it would be useful.

I believe that Fly has already sent another tie to TK as another data point, just waiting on the broken SEM part or something, hope it's not coming from China !

My suspicion is the Cooper is so special its off the charts compared to any other tie on Earth!

[Math of Insects 76]

2 hours ago, georger said:

We already have one set of controls operating with the tie - Boeing workplace ties vs the Cooper tie. That report alone makes the Cooper tie special ... off the charts? 

It's true, although it's not really a control, it's checking out a guess. Fly's will be closer. I wish we could swab the seat Cooper was in…

I recall someone knowledgable saying the profile basically revealed every substance on earth and that even the outliers could be explained as aspects of other things there, so it wasn't meaningful investigatorily. I don't remember who that was, though.

Is this in your realm?

Edited November 30, 2022 by Math of Insects

[georger 122]

1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:

It's true, although it's not really a control, it's checking out a guess. Fly's will be closer. I wish we could swab the seat Cooper was in…

I recall someone knowledgable saying the profile basically revealed every substance on earth and that even the outliers could be explained as aspects of other things there, so it wasn't meaningful investigatorily. I don't remember who that was, though.

Is this in your realm?

I recall the same statement but it wasnt mine as far as I recall - maybe it was Kaye?  I was surprised that McCrone was not more helpful. They dumped a boatload on Tom.

I actually showed the McCrone list/wheel to several chemists - one at Integ DNA Tech, and they were shocked. One commented "I see no pattern!". "A bit of everything". I replied to one, "Maybe thats what you get from an intentional plant" and he laughed and said, "that could be". So the plant idea has been in my mind since this surfaced. I know in advance some people will react very negatively to that - maybe even Tom.  Where does this tie fit on the bell curve, of what? !  Occupational ties?

Edited November 30, 2022 by georger

[kcaero 3]

Georger..NO.The rig that Dan Gryder showed is jumpable.you Mus understood what I said.To clarify...that rig can  not be described as "an NB8" simply because it is part NB8( the container)and part B 12(the harness).It does have the correct Ripcord for that container ( NB8).

[kcaero 3]

Andrade1812...yes it is functional although not in great condition

[georger 122]

2 minutes ago, kcaero said:

Georger..NO.The rig that Dan Gryder showed is jumpable.you Mus understood what I said.To clarify...that rig can  not be described as "an NB8" simply because it is part NB8( the container)and part B 12(the harness).It does have the correct Ripcord for that container ( NB8).

OK thanks for the clarification! 

[Math of Insects 76]

33 minutes ago, georger said:

I recall the same statement but it wasnt mine as far as I recall - maybe it was Kaye?  I was surprised that McCrone was not more helpful. They dumped a boatload on Tom.

I actually showed the McCrone list/wheel to several chemists - one at Integ DNA Tech, and they were shocked. One commented "I see no pattern!". "A bit of everything". I replied to one, "Maybe thats what you get from an intentional plant" and he laughed and said, "that could be". So the plant idea has been in my mind since this surfaced. I know in advance some people will react very negatively to that - maybe even Tom.  Where does this tie fit on the bell curve, of what? !  Occupational ties?

I have to be honest: I think the plant idea is largely because we live in the future and someone electron-microscoped it and now we're confused. In real time, I would not imagine someone having the foresight to know this day would come, or to guess how to get the right substances to confuse us with. I am of the belief the particles will prove to be more mundane than we give them credit for. Not that belief matters, of course. It's all guesses.

Fly's theory that he may have used the tie to wipe off fingerprints is a good one. It would certainly explain particles from many different types of surfaces. 

The dumpster idea is also good.

I've never understood why people seem so opposed to the thrift store idea, either. I've bought 98% of all the ties I've ever owned at one. In fact I've never been to a thrift store that didn't have maybe 100 ties at the end of the suit rack. Old people die and their children pass on their clothes to the thrift store. Old men have lots of ties. I'm not sure how that's even a question for some. 

I'd still be curious to know what would come of someone swabbing that parachute pack. That's something that would reliably be in contact with lots of airplane-related surfaces of all kinds. It might even have had flares in the mix. It's something we know Cooper was in contact with. If it were me that might even be the first place I'd check, if I had to choose one.

[Nicholas Broughton 33]

The sheer amount of Ti metal found on the stubs combined with all those particles of Ti-Pd and the TiSb are all very strong indicators of specialty metals R&D work. Tom agrees this is the kitty pool cooper was swimming in. I’ve looked at individuals who would be wearing ties from all the players involved in this industry: RMI, Batelle Memorial Institute, TIMET, Dupont, Crucible, Wa Chang, Bureau of Mines, ect.  and there is only one individual that I’ve come across that sticks out as fitting the cooper physical profile the personality profile and the tie profile. This person who I refer to as the unicorn is Milton Bernard Vordahl.  

[Nicholas Broughton 33]

6 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I have to be honest: I think the plant idea is largely because we live in the future and someone electron-microscoped it and now we're confused. In real time, I would not imagine someone having the foresight to know this day would come, or to guess how to get the right substances to confuse us with. I am of the belief the particles will prove to be more mundane than we give them credit for. Not that belief matters, of course. It's all guesses.

Fly's theory that he may have used the tie to wipe off fingerprints is a good one. It would certainly explain particles from many different types of surfaces. 

The dumpster idea is also good.

I've never understood why people seem so opposed to the thrift store idea, either. I've bought 98% of all the ties I've ever owned at one. In fact I've never been to a thrift store that didn't have maybe 100 ties at the end of the suit rack. Old people die and their children pass on their clothes to the thrift store. Old men have lots of ties. I'm not sure how that's even a question for some. 

I'd still be curious to know what would come of someone swabbing that parachute pack. That's something that would reliably be in contact with lots of airplane-related surfaces of all kinds. It might even have had flares in the mix. It's something we know Cooper was in contact with. If it were me that might even be the first place I'd check, if I had to choose one.

Tina described the red sticks as being six inches long which is not consistent with road flares. 

[Math of Insects 76]

12 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Tina described the red sticks as being six inches long which is not consistent with road flares. 

I was saying that the parachute packs may have held flares at some point. (Pre-Cooper.)

[FLYJACK 502]

Report on the state of Titanium circa 1966... it wasn't that rare..

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD0801280.pdf

Even the Boeing 727 used 650lb of Titanium...

Edited November 30, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 502]

55 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Tina described the red sticks as being six inches long which is not consistent with road flares. 

Six to eight inches.. size could be a flare, dynamite, a firework or ??