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DB Cooper

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4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, he was 58 for the hijacking... really pushing it.

Yessir, it's pushing it, but we've been looking at suspects of a certain age for too long. We're forgetting that the first impression we have of Cooper that was given in real time while the dude himself was still sitting just 75 feet away was "in his 50's".

Also, we're not giving Bill Mitchell enough credit here. A 20 year old isn't a 14 year old. You're an adult at 20. When I was a sophomore in college I wouldn't have called a man in his early 40's an "old guy". There are men in their 50's, even late 50's who are in dang good shape. I'm not ruling them out if there is evidence that has led me to them. 

300447363_10106759891130846_7725608327590774427_n.jpg

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22 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yessir, it's pushing it, but we've been looking at suspects of a certain age for too long. We're forgetting that the first impression we have of Cooper that was given in real time while the dude himself was still sitting just 75 feet away was "in his 50's".

Also, we're not giving Bill Mitchell enough credit here. A 20 year old isn't a 14 year old. You're an adult at 20. When I was a sophomore in college I wouldn't have called a man in his early 40's an "old guy". There are men in their 50's, even late 50's who are in dang good shape. I'm not ruling them out if there is evidence that has led me to them. 

300447363_10106759891130846_7725608327590774427_n.jpg

58 doesn't exclude a suspect but the further from the 45-50 sweet spot the probability drops off..

Mitchell thought he was forty..

Whiting: “Yes, I just wanted to ask you about a few specific points in the description. You know there have been so many different accounts that seem to have gotten mistranslated and re-reported. How old do you...did you think he was?”

Bill Mitchell: “So, I was twenty and I want to say forty...”

 

That is why it is called the Vortex... 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Anyone know where this forum of Edwards is ?  A url ?   

I guess Chaucer and Edwards are working together. Chaucer is trying to move the LZ south to the Columbia, in some serious way .... looking for any excuse ... perhaps to explain the money at Tena Bar. People keep trying to connect the TBar money and the flight path!  There is nothing that requires there even is a connection. People are trying to fill this void with - something! If there is no connection then people are wasting their time.

Nobody has the faintest idea how the money got to TBar. But, there are few stipulations that must apply, however it happened. These stipulations have to do with the money itself, the condition the money was found in, rubber band chemistry, the alleged fragment field 20ft below the reported Ingram find location, the diatoms Tom found, etc etc etc. 

If Chaucer is wrong, then this is all a time consuming wild goose chase.

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Anyone know where this forum of Edwards is ?  A url ?   

I guess Chaucer and Edwards are working together. Chaucer is trying to move the LZ south to the Columbia, in some serious way .... looking for any excuse ... perhaps to explain the money at Tena Bar. People keep trying to connect the TBar money and the flight path!  There is nothing that requires there even is a connection. People are trying to fill this void with - something! If there is no connection then people are wasting their time.

Nobody has the faintest idea how the money got to TBar. But, there are few stipulations that must apply, however it happened. These stipulations have to do with the money itself, the condition the money was found in, rubber band chemistry, the alleged fragment field 20ft below the reported Ingram find location, the diatoms Tom found, etc etc etc. 

If Chaucer is wrong, then this is all a time consuming wild goose chase.

This is Edwards blog, he has a few important things wrong but some good analysis.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

He and Chaucer are working together to move the FBI LZ.. reminds me of Ulis's Western Flight Path analysis that was nonsense.

Chaucer made a ridiculous video trying to discredit Rataczak... using a misinterpretation in a news report. It is classic confirmation bias. He uses that insignificant point to claim Ratazcak is unreliable and therefore all his claims must be unreliable and Cooper actually jumped further South. It is quite a feat of mental gymnastics but all a bunch of hooey..

Apparently he is trying to get something published...  what a joke. 

IMO, just let people get things wrong,, why help them and most won't listen anyway.

 

 

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(edited)

I think I will share this for whatever its worth. I have no idea how this will affect the Chaucer-Edwards debate ?

There is one money detail that people have apparently overlooked including TK. Pieces of old bands were literally stuck to the fibers of at least one bill. This is documented by both FBI docs and by Pat Ingram personally, in a conversation I had with her years ago. Harold's brother was assigned the task of picking these 'stuck' pieces of bands off. This rubber band condition requires that the bands went through a gooey stage - the melt transition phase. That can only happen if the bands and bills are "dry" and "hot" ... a minimum 68"F for an extended period of time. The bands probably went went through this transition within the first year after the hijacking. The rubber bands are a chemical clock - literally.

TK documented rubber band decomposition but he did not document the gooey stage melt transition phase all bands can go through. It was an omission on TK's part.

Given that hot-dry conditions are required, this selects against the money being in cold water, on the bottom of the Columbia, and perhaps not at Tena Bar at all. The conditions at Tena Bar may not fulfill the conditions required by what the Ingrams reported they found and did. 

Pat described her brother-in-law having difficulty picking the stuck bands fragments off the money, and 'in several cases when he 'pulled' a piece of stuck band off it pulled pieces of money paper with them'! There is little doubt in my mind that the bands went through a gooey (melt transition) phase so complete that melted areas of bands stuck to the money paper itself. That cannot happen in a cold-wet environment.   

     

Edited by georger
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2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This is Edwards blog, he has a few important things wrong but some good analysis.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

He and Chaucer are working together to move the FBI LZ.. reminds me of Ulis's Western Flight Path analysis that was nonsense.

Chaucer made a ridiculous video trying to discredit Rataczak... using a misinterpretation in a news report. It is classic confirmation bias. He uses that insignificant point to claim Ratazcak is unreliable and therefore all his claims must be unreliable and Cooper actually jumped further South. It is quite a feat of mental gymnastics but all a bunch of hooey..

Apparently he is trying to get something published...  what a joke. 

IMO, just let people get things wrong,, why help them and most won't listen anyway.

 

 

its like a Chaucer steam roller ... Ive noticed that.

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8 minutes ago, georger said:

I think I will share this for whatever its worth. I have no idea how this will affect the Chaucer-Edwards debate ?

There is one money detail that people have apparently overlooked including TK. Pieces of old bands were literally stuck to the fibers of at least one bill. This is documented by both FBI docs and by Pat Ingram personally, in a conversation I had with her years ago. Harold's brother was assigned the task of picking these 'stuck' pieces of bands off. This rubber band condition requires that the bands went through a gooey stage - the melt transition phase. That can only happen if the bands and bills are "dry" and "hot" ... a minimum 68"F for an extended period of time. The bands probably went went through this transition within the first year after the hijacking. The rubber bands are a chemical clock - literally.

TK documented rubber band decomposition but he did not document the gooey stage melt transition phase all bands can go through. It was an omission on TK's part.

Given that hot-dry conditions are required, this selects against the money being in cold water, on the bottom of the Columbia, and perhaps not at Tena Bar. The conditions at Tena Bar may not fulfill these conditions. 

Pat described her brother-in-law having difficulty picking the stuck bands fragments off the money, and 'in several cases when he 'pulled' a piece of stuck band off it pulled pieces of money paper with them'! There is little doubt in my mind that the bands went through a gooey (melt transition) phase so complete that melted areas of bands stuck to the money paper itself. That cannot happen in a cold-wet environment.   

     

My understanding is that UV and oxygen make rubber bands melty..

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4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

My understanding is that UV and oxygen make rubber bands melty..

Correct but conditions must be dry and hot, at a minimum. I was surprised TK did not include this option in his tests because it was described in the FBI docs we received. Its an import fact about the Cooper money.

The money was somewhere during the first year where this phenomenon could happen and did happen. That may not be Tena Bar. Im not exactly happy about that - Im only following the evidence that must be accounted for wherever it leads .

Edited by georger

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2 minutes ago, georger said:

Correct but conditions must be dry and hot, at a minimum. I was surprised TK did not include this option in his tests because it was described in the FBI docs we received. Its an import fact about the Cooper money.

Well, the money could have been elsewhere for some time or perhaps at the top of the sand layer which can get hot and dry in the summer. I know sandy beaches in the PNW can get too hot to walk barefoot on..

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(edited)

Cooper handed Flo an envelope, she removed a note...

He demanded and got the note back but what about the envelope...

Tina saw the note fall on the floor..

Flo took the note and envelope to the Cockpit.. as well as the demands she wrote down.

Flo took both notes to the hijacker after he demanded them.

843106504_ScreenShot2022-08-27at5_25_55PM.png.aa18a4759f47f5747c0b281d4817f7f7.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Well, the money could have been...  perhaps at the top of the sand layer which can get hot and dry in the summer.

But wasn't that beach a popular spot for fishermen and families? If the money was on top of the sand there wouldn't it have been found somewhat quickly?

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8 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

But wasn't that beach a popular spot for fishermen and families? If the money was on top of the sand there wouldn't it have been found somewhat quickly?

I was thinking at the top still in the sand not sitting on the top, though possible the top may have been exposed for some period of time. It looked like wood to Brian.. it was found just under the top.

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

But wasn't that beach a popular spot for fishermen and families? If the money was on top of the sand there wouldn't it have been found somewhat quickly?

That is a stubborn problem - thousands of people visited TBar. Not one person found or saw money except for Galen Cook's report he refuses to document. Cook claims his witness found corners of $20 bills just north of the Ingram find several months prior to the Ingram find. If you recall Cook spun this claim into a counterfeiting story! Strange you want strange you get.  

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Well, the money could have been elsewhere for some time or perhaps at the top of the sand layer which can get hot and dry in the summer. I know sandy beaches in the PNW can get too hot to walk barefoot on..

Yes the surface of the sand gets hot at TBar - this a is confirmed. But, it is also wet/humid which is not favorable. The clock on those bands is important. Were they new or already old?  Using the normal clock there is only so much time for those bands to break down and still be capable of entering a gooey stage ... there is no question the bands on the Ingram money went through a gooey stage somewhere, at some time, somehow. That has to be explained in the money's history probably after the first year after Cooper bailed.  

I have always assumed whatever process brought the money to TBar it also had to cover the money up from view, due to the very large number of people using that fishing bar every year until someone stumbled on the money (combination of human activity & blind luck).  

Edited by georger

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8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This is Edwards blog, he has a few important things wrong but some good analysis.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

He and Chaucer are working together to move the FBI LZ.. reminds me of Ulis's Western Flight Path analysis that was nonsense.

Chaucer made a ridiculous video trying to discredit Rataczak... using a misinterpretation in a news report. It is classic confirmation bias. He uses that insignificant point to claim Ratazcak is unreliable and therefore all his claims must be unreliable and Cooper actually jumped further South. It is quite a feat of mental gymnastics but all a bunch of hooey..

Apparently he is trying to get something published...  what a joke. 

IMO, just let people get things wrong,, why help them and most won't listen anyway.

 

 

and it is gone... 

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and it is gone... 

Been reading Edwards blog tonight. I dont read anything where Edwards supports a  'Columbia landing' or even a southern landing, wherever that is? A Columbia landing is what Tosaw preached. I dont know why Chaucer is pushing for this or what evidence he is drawing on ?  I mean Chaucer no disrespect but I wonder what his reasoning or his evidence is, exactly ... or if Edwards is supporting this also ?  Tosaw said Cooper had to have landed in the Columbia for the money to have been at Tena Bar, at all! I laugh when I think about it now . . . typical Tosaw.   

To my knowledge, there has never been a suspect who lived in the Tena Bar area, or at Caterpillar Island ? Someone who was physically in that area and knew it ? Someone in the Dell Tena family ...  the family of skiers and athletes? 

Edited by georger

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18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not necessarily, everyone is focussed on the French angle but the Dan Cooper comic was also published in Mexico, in Spanish for Latin America..  Cooper was described as swarthy and Latin American.. plus his demand was to fly to Mexico... 

but, I still think the name is a random coincidence..  we will never be able to find any connection beyond speculation.

It is still interesting..

Here is an article on the publication, it was out of NY,

https://thepulp.net/pulp-articles/i-flew-with-bill-barnes/

I am still trying to figure out if Dan Cooper was a character in only one edition or an ongoing character.. it looks like only that one issue.

Nonsense fly what if we found a copy of this issue and or other issues of AIR TRAILS in a POI’s belongings then what? You just linked the material to a matchbook DBC had on 305. If this was a Latin American/Mexican AIR TRAILS you’d be all over it. I really think you pigeon holed yourself with this whole Spanish/Latino angle. DBC simply wasn’t of that heritage. Latino and NA were thrown out there by witnesses to help describe certain features of the UNSUB. I can quote Bill too “He looked just like a regular WHITE guy.” 

 

Nicky
 

 

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

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2 hours ago, georger said:

Been reading Edwards blog tonight. I dont read anything where Edwards supports a  'Columbia landing' or even a southern landing, wherever that is? A Columbia landing is what Tosaw preached. I dont know why Chaucer is pushing for this or what evidence he is drawing on ?  I mean Chaucer no disrespect but I wonder what his reasoning or his evidence is, exactly ... or if Edwards is supporting this also ?  Tosaw said Cooper had to have landed in the Columbia for the money to have been at Tena Bar, at all! I laugh when I think about it now . . . typical Tosaw.   

To my knowledge, there has never been a suspect who lived in the Tena Bar area, or at Caterpillar Island ? Someone who was physically in that area and knew it ? Someone in the Dell Tena family ...  the family of skiers and athletes? 

Dr. Edwards covers the southern landing and a potential Columbia River landing in his book. It's based on notes that were taken by NWO Flight Operations and specifically the position reports that Flight 305 made on the ARINC TTY.  Basically, he identifies 6 people taking notes based on the communications between 305 and NWO.  He labels them authors A,B,C,D,E and F.  The only name he has for one of the note takers is Bob Lowenthal. Author "F" makes a note that 305 reported to be 23 miles south of the PDX VOR at 8:18pm (now known as the Battlle Ground VOR). Based on this position report and the roughly 3 miles per minute speed of the plane, he puts 305 just south of Battle Ground and North of Vancouver at the ~8:11pm jump time INSTEAD of over Ariel as the FBI/Air Force calculations suggested.  So he generally supports the Victor 23  flight path, but has the plane further south along flight path from a time line perspective and he also reexamines the wind speeds which deviates somewhat wrt to the drift the hijacker after exiting the plane. 

I just got done reading his book.  I really enjoyed it, it is well written and I like his writing style. He really dives into the data and introduces some new data and then draws some new and interesting conclusions and proposed theories.  There are some things that I am not fully convinced of:

- He basically dismisses the oscillations and pressure bump as evidence of the hijacker leaving the plane.  He posits that this is the hijacker simply walking down the stairs and throwing out the brief case and possible the chest chute--not entirely unreasonable.  However, in my mind, the problem with this, is that he never mentions why later on when he proposes the hijacker jumps that there are not similar oscillations and bump experienced by the flight crew.

- He states that the air stairs were locked during the flight, not free floating.

- He states that the auto pilot was on.  

- He states that the air stairs were not locked during the sled test.  He also points out that the fact that the sled test flight was at 7000 feet instead of 10,000 feet as 305 was during the hijacking calls into question the results of the test.

- As he proposes that there was a significant possibility that the hijacker had a water landing, he didn't seem to explain or circle back to the diatoms issue i.e. lack of November diatoms present on the Tena Bar money.

So that's my quick high level summary, hopefully I didn't misrepresent Dr. Edwards.  Again, I think it is a really good read and the possibility that 305 was further along the flight path than the original time line proposed is one of the major assertions.

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6 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Nonsense fly what if we found a copy of this issue and or other issues of AIR TRAILS in a POI’s belongings then what? You just linked the material to a matchbook DBC had on 305. If this was a Latin American/Mexican AIR TRAILS you’d be all over it. I really think you pigeon holed yourself with this whole Spanish/Latino angle. DBC simply wasn’t of that heritage. Latino and NA were thrown out there by witnesses to help describe certain features of the UNSUB. I can quote Bill too “He looked just like a regular WHITE guy.” 

 

Nicky
 

 

But, outside of the name and aviation there is no connection to anyone. Connecting the ICS matches to the school is ridiculous. Those were marketing/advertising material obtained where you buy cigarettes. A correspondence school doesn't send matchbooks to students in the mail. They could have been picked up anywhere.

 

Nope,, total misfire Nicky on all three counts.

First, that 1937 article is still too distant, obscure and a one off... a coincidence.

Second, I have said I think the Dan Cooper comic is likely a coincidence AS WELL even though it was published in Mexico, I have never claimed it was related, just laid out the facts. I said it was a more likely connection than the french Canadian one. So, you misrepresent my motives.

Further, you make a gross error like many others have made..

Latin Americans were of Spanish descent and they were called WHITE or Caucasian at the time.. that includes gov in documents.. Everybody falsely claims that Cooper can't be White/Caucasian and Latin American,, this is 100% false and I can prove it... Gregory even called Cooper Caucasian and Latin American... wait what..

IT IS NOT ONE OR THE OTHER.. GET IT.. and tell all your buddies they are wrong as well..

All of you can remain wrong on this, in fact I prefer it. It is a waste of energy to convince people of things I know to be true.

Lastly, I have Cooper images that nobody else has.. end of story.

Edited by FLYJACK

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