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On 8/13/2022 at 7:20 AM, FLYJACK said:

That begs the question,, did Cossey make it before Hayden bought it??

That is an interesting question. Again, I think it would take a Master rating (as opposed to Senior) to do a harness change. That puzzles me the documents stating Cossey had just gotten his Master rating. I still have to wonder if that was just a renewal. If Cossey was the main rigger at Sky Sports' loft and taking care of their student gear, I would think he would need a Master. Makes me wonder how long he had been there and been their rigger. Also, when and by whom the harness change was done should be on the packing card, but the card starts with that May '71 pack job. Maybe the older cards were full and no longer kept with the rig. In those days repacks were required every 120, maybe 90, days. So at 6 months, that rig was no longer 'in date', or technically legal. (That would have no effect on it's functionality, it would still work.)

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Cossey believed his back chutes were taken from Sky Sports..

The NB6/8 was described by Cossey as a sage green nylon container/sage green nylon harness but prior to Cossey describing his chute to the FBI the back chute used by Cooper was described as olive drab container/tan cotton harness..

Cossey thought his personal chutes were to be used, but meanwhile Hayden's were obtained and Lynn Emrich was told only to send the chest chutes.. Cossey didn't know that until later,, but he never corrected his error. 

The ramifications are astounding...

1608454278_ScreenShot2022-08-15at5_17_38PM.png.beadd41020d77052634310ca4d51af45.png

2075616901_ScreenShot2022-08-10at7_51_30AM.png.c37306bd324a27bbc9fc476c9634e381.png

 

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(edited)
6 hours ago, Slim King said:

My wife is a banker. You are 100% correct .. $20 bills are STRAPPED with paper straps in groups of 100. My wife says they only use rubber bands infrequently when the money is in drawers and is then removed when the money is Strapped. Where these rubber bands applied later?

Two types of bands? Used in the Cooper case, says Dudeman? Thats news to everyone I know including TK. Where is Dudeman getting that information?

The bank that packaged the money used bands that came from Alliance Rubber Company, Hot Springs, AR  In business since 1923 producing rubber bands.

From Kaye site:  Personal Communication, Dennis Long, Alliance Rubber, Technical Dept.: Mr. Long in a phone conversation confirmed that they were the major supplier to all the west coast banks in 1971. He further stated that the differences in chemical composition of their rubber bands produced 1971, to the bands they supplied for testing, would be minimal. Mr. Long provided a significant number of the proper rubber bands for use in testing for which we are grateful.

4. Mechanism of Rubber Aging, B. L. Johnson, F.K. Cameron, Ind.Eng. Chem.,1933, pg 1151

 

Ckret talked to the band people about how the money was prepared for Cooper. Bands only. No paper straps. In spite of Ckret now associating with Gray, Ulis, etal........ Ckret has not given any further statement on this issue that I am aware of.  Since Carr deals with Chaucer maybe Chaucer can ask him?

From Kaye site:

If the bundles had been exposed to the elements for an extended period, then the rubber should have degraded and lost the ability to hold the bundles together. Since the rubber bands were found intact, this places a "degradation limit" on when the bundles became buried on Tena Bar.

In order to place constrains on the degradation limit, the first of two experiments was conducted with rubber bands submerged in a river in Arizona. Figure 2 shows the stages of rubber band decomposition under water. After submersion for 234 days, all the bands were broken except the group with the smallest initial 150% stretch. These remaining bands had become permanently stretched to the 150% point and did not retract in size when removed.  When the bands were stretched an additional 25%, they broke. Figure 3 shows the level of degradation closeup and illustrates how tenuously the bands were still in place. This experiment suggests that a rubber band lifetime of less than a year would be expected in fresh water.

In order to mimic the conditions of sand burial on Tena Bar, a second experiment was constructed where the rubber band fixture was buried under an inch of beach sand and left outside in a residential backyard in Portland. The condition of the bands after 46 and 108 days is shown in Figure 4. By the 355th day all the bands were broken and none were left intact. This experiment also indicates that rubber bands under sand, have similar lifetimes to submerged bands which is less than a year.

The control fixture had all its bands intact after two years. This suggests that the degradation and final breakage of the bands "in nature" within a year, were due to environmental factors.'

Edited by georger

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(edited)
13 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

But there are two kinds of bands. The paper bank bands that hold the packets of 100 bills together, and the rubber bands that held 2 or 3 packets together. So how long did which kind last?

missundetrstood your use of the word "bands". Shanah et shmi lhayin v'et .

got it. paper bands vs rubber bands called paper straps. Carr said no paper straps were used.  FJ says Carr is lying.

I dont think this is ever going to be solved/resolved.   The election was stolen!

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

the back chute used by Cooper was described as olive drab container/tan cotton harness..

Geez, I have to laugh again. I keep posting guesses and suppositions based on general knowledge, and you keep coming back with documentation that my guesses could be off the mark. So was this rig the same kind of WW2 container as the other one? Most of the forces and stresses of the rig is taken by the harness. It holds the person, and takes the opening shock of the canopy. So putting a newer, stronger harness on an older rig (Hayden's museum rig) makes sense. But having a (30 year old??) cotton harness still in use in the 70's...?? Maybe the FBI is convinced Cooper died in the jump because they tried their best to kill him by giving him the oldest, out of date rigs they could find! Yeah, that was something of a joke, but if you tell me next that the canopies were also WW2 vintage and silk, and his exit speed was 200 knots, I'm going to become more pessimistic of his chances. Ha!

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18 minutes ago, georger said:

Two types of bands? Used in the Cooper case, says Dudeman? Thats news to everyone I know including TK. Where is Dudeman getting that information?

All the specific information I have on this case comes from you people on these two sites. It's always been my understanding that the money is in packets of 100 bills, strapped by standard paper bank bands. Those packets were bundled in 2's and 3's by rubber bands. The durability of the rubber bands have always been in question, in regards to how 3 packets of 100 would end up together on T-bar. Is that wrong?

Is Skinwalker Ranch under the Western Flight Path?

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11 minutes ago, georger said:

missundetrstood your use of the word "bands". Shanah et shmi lhayin v'et .

got it. paper bands vs rubber bands called paper straps. Carr said no paper straps were used.  FJ says Carr is lying.

I dont think this is ever going to be solved/resolved.   The election was stolen!

No, I never said Carr was lying, he was incorrect and misunderstood.

We now that because he said the 3 TBAR "bundles" were each a random size.. they were not. Carr confused packets of 100 bills with bundles of packets.

IMO, there were paper bands on the packets and possibly rubber bands on some as well. The individual packets were rubber banded into bundles..

Another thing is there were 2 bank stashes.. the bank immediately made a second one with the money from the first stash that was not used. The FBI got so confused about deducting the bills not taken from the first micro that they asked for the micro of the second bank stash.. a complete screwup..

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7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, I never said Carr was lying, he was incorrect and misunderstood.

We now that because he said the 3 TBAR "bundles" were each a random size.. they were not. Carr confused packets of 100 bills with bundles of packets.

IMO, there were paper bands on the packets and possibly rubber bands on some as well. The individual packets were rubber banded into bundles..

Another thing is there were 2 bank stashes.. the bank immediately made a second one with the money from the first stash that was not used. The FBI got so confused about deducting the bills not taken from the first micro that they asked for the micro of the second bank stash.. a complete screwup..

Packets as a formal term having anything to do with the Cooper case, never appeared until you joined this case. The whole issue is now screwed up until Carr straightens it out and he doesnt appear to be interested or even aware or care - Hollywood Carr has other fish to fry today. 

Its just one more piece of the Cooper case that will never be resolved. I have no personal stake in this matter whatever. I do know because I was personally there that the issue of paper straps vs bands came up via Carr when we were trying to get specimens from Brian Ingram to test, and everything stopped cold waiting for Carr to talk to Pat Ingram and band people .......... until Carr sent out a message that no paper straps had been involved ...

Ive been over this so many times I AM SICK OF IT AND DONT CARE!

No sane person cares! 

 

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20 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Geez, I have to laugh again. I keep posting guesses and suppositions based on general knowledge, and you keep coming back with documentation that my guesses could be off the mark. So was this rig the same kind of WW2 container as the other one? Most of the forces and stresses of the rig is taken by the harness. It holds the person, and takes the opening shock of the canopy. So putting a newer, stronger harness on an older rig (Hayden's museum rig) makes sense. But having a (30 year old??) cotton harness still in use in the 70's...?? Maybe the FBI is convinced Cooper died in the jump because they tried their best to kill him by giving him the oldest, out of date rigs they could find! Yeah, that was something of a joke, but if you tell me next that the canopies were also WW2 vintage and silk, and his exit speed was 200 knots, I'm going to become more pessimistic of his chances. Ha!

The initial description of the chute Cooper used.

1424177717_ScreenShot2022-08-15at9_14_31PM.png.a3a26ddb66714dcde8d0bdd6b0e1f846.png

 

Then Cossey's later description of the chute Cooper used... sometimes NB6, sometimes NB8.. but clearly not the same. Since Cossey also claimed it as his personal customized chute taken from Sky Sports, he has no credibility.

403392616_ScreenShot2022-08-15at9_19_25PM.png.dbdf0ba958c748f664da1c0d60f5d5b6.png

 

 

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21 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

All the specific information I have on this case comes from you people on these two sites. It's always been my understanding that the money is in packets of 100 bills, strapped by standard paper bank bands. Those packets were bundled in 2's and 3's by rubber bands. The durability of the rubber bands have always been in question, in regards to how 3 packets of 100 would end up together on T-bar. Is that wrong?

Is Skinwalker Ranch under the Western Flight Path?

Ask R99 if Skinwalker is under the west path! Thanks for the humor!! B)

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(edited)
9 minutes ago, georger said:

Packets as a formal term having anything to do with the Cooper case, never appeared until you joined this case. The whole issue is now screwed up until Carr straightens it out and he doesnt appear to be interested or even aware or care - Hollywood Carr has other fish to fry today. 

Its just one more piece of the Cooper case that will never be resolved. I have no personal stake in this matter whatever. I do know because I was personally there that the issue of paper straps vs bands came up via Carr when we were trying to get specimens from Brian Ingram to test, and everything stopped cold waiting for Carr to talk to Pat Ingram and band people .......... until Carr sent out a message that no paper straps had been involved ...

Ive been over this so many times I AM SICK OF IT AND DONT CARE!

No sane person cares! 

 

That just is not true,, "packets" was used. Himmelsbach called them a "flat", same thing. Calling the TBAR money 3 "bundles" is where it all went sideways.. because a rubber banded group of packets is a "bundle"..   not just words but context is crucial.

but how can Carr straighten it out when he doesn't understand that the TBAR money was 3 packets of 100's and was given to Cooper in packets of 100's that were rubber banded into bundles. The FBI said the money was in the same order and packaging..

717351089_ScreenShot2022-08-15at9_25_13PM.png.2a25ecae5495e04613fd20fcd2f3e043.png

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

All the specific information I have on this case comes from you people on these two sites. It's always been my understanding that the money is in packets of 100 bills, strapped by standard paper bank bands. Those packets were bundled in 2's and 3's by rubber bands. The durability of the rubber bands have always been in question, in regards to how 3 packets of 100 would end up together on T-bar. Is that wrong?

Is Skinwalker Ranch under the Western Flight Path?

What and where is Skinwalker Ranch?  If known, the coordinates will be very helpful.

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(edited)
15 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

What and where is Skinwalker Ranch?

Georger made a comment about it in one of his posts above. I think he edited it out while I was responding. I think both remarks were jokes. I actually don't know where it is. I think it has something to do with UFO's, there's a Discovery Channel series about it that I've never seen.

Edited by dudeman17

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That just is not true,, "packets" was used. Himmelsbach called them a "flat", same thing. Calling the TBAR money 3 "bundles" is where it all went sideways.. because a rubber banded group of packets is a "bundle"..   not just words but context is crucial.

but how can Carr straighten it out when he doesn't understand that the TBAR money was 3 packets of 100's and was given to Cooper in packets of 100's that were rubber banded into bundles. The FBI said the money was in the same order and packaging..

717351089_ScreenShot2022-08-15at9_25_13PM.png.2a25ecae5495e04613fd20fcd2f3e043.png

 

I have asked Chaucer to ask Carr on the EU forum, if Carr ever talked to any bank people about how the Cooper bills were packed. Rubber bands and paper straps, rubber bands only, etc.  And how many bills per bundle... This is all I can do. I think TK and Brian Ingram might know something about this but decline to comment. So this issue is stuck until somebody clears it up with firsthand evidence.  

Edited by georger

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5 hours ago, georger said:

I have asked Chaucer to ask Carr on the EU forum, if Carr ever talked to any bank people about how the Cooper bills were packed. Rubber bands and paper straps, rubber bands only, etc.  And how many bills per bundle... This is all I can do. I think TK and Brian Ingram might know something about this but decline to comment. So this issue is stuck until somebody clears it up with firsthand evidence.  

Chaucer is incapable of sorting this out,, Carr will just repeat his error.

Everybody including Carr kept saying the "bundles" were randomized... but the money was given to Cooper in 100's and rubber banded into groups.. the TBAR money was in 100's and in the same order..  the TBAR money was NOT randomized.

So, it never made sense to me and when I questioned it I got trashed because nobody saw the logical conflict..

When Carr stated on DZ that the TBAR  "bundles" were randomized into $500 or $1000 each I knew he mixed up bundles and packets of 100..

The bundles of several packets of 100 were randomized not the individual packets of 100..

So when Carr was told by the bank guy that the bundles were randomized and repackaged with rubber bands, he misunderstood and thought that the packets of 100 were.. 

Carr made other errors as well, he said the back chutes came from Hayden then he said he thought they came from Cossey's house and speculated that Cossey sent the chute instructions because of his modified chute...

IMO, Carr is just not up to date with the case.. his case knowledge is circa 2012.

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(edited)

The FBI files are clear and that includes the pilot transcripts which are as accurate as you can get,, 

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight..

Ulis asked Ratazcak if Cooper changed his demand and Ratazcak said something like they had to convince him have stairs up on takeoff.

So, Ulis rejects the evidence because he asked Rataczak the wrong question and got the wrong answer.. 

 

The other one is the plane on autopilot,, in the FBI files somebody told somebody that the plane was being flown on autopilot.. ok, but there are lots of errors and assumptions in the FBI files, they are not conclusions they are investigative notes.

Ratazcak, the pilot, said he was hand flying the plane and joked that the path was crooked because he was hand flying it.. THE ACTUAL PILOT SAID HE WAS HAND FLYING THE PLANE.

Further, the Boeing test engineer stated that on autopilot Cooper wouldn't be felt on the stairs.. Ratazcak said he felt Cooper on the stairs...

The evidence supports the plane being hand flown by Ratazcak not on autopilot.

 

People keep trying to change the facts to fit a preconceived narrative.. for McCoy's hijacking the crew saw the red airstair light (amber) and felt a change in pressure when McCoy exited, they went back and confirmed, he was gone.. Same as NORJAK... except the NORJAK crew was ordered not to check.

97983483_ScreenShot2022-08-13at8_17_24AM.png.82932c4587c5ce743cb8f4959a946e3b.png

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Chaucer is incapable of sorting this out,, Carr will just repeat his error.

Everybody including Carr kept saying the "bundles" were randomized... but the money was given to Cooper in 100's and rubber banded into groups.. the TBAR money was in 100's and in the same order..  the TBAR money was NOT randomized.

So, it never made sense to me and when I questioned it I got trashed because nobody saw the logical conflict..

When Carr stated on DZ that the TBAR  "bundles" were randomized into $500 or $1000 each I knew he mixed up bundles and packets of 100..

The bundles of several packets of 100 were randomized not the individual packets of 100..

So when Carr was told by the bank guy that the bundles were randomized and repackaged with rubber bands, he misunderstood and thought that the packets of 100 were.. 

Carr made other errors as well, he said the back chutes came from Hayden then he said he thought they came from Cossey's house and speculated that Cossey sent the chute instructions because of his modified chute...

IMO, Carr is just not up to date with the case.. his case knowledge is circa 2012.

Didn't you post something a while back, where Tina indicated the money had "bank type bands"? Seems like I remember you posting something along those lines.

I don't know that it's that important in the big picture. I think three packets being rubber banded together arriving at Tena Bar is more logical than three individual packets arriving together. Makes much more sense that the packets were randomized into bundles. I'm afraid Georger is right though, we'll never get these answers.

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From Larry Carr on the DB Cooper facebook page:

"The 302 relates to the money isn’t really clear. We know the money had rubber bands when found but the 302 says the money was banded in stacks of 100. I assume from the way it was written they were paper bank bands. But the 302 doesn’t specifically point out paper bands."

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24 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Didn't you post something a while back, where Tina indicated the money had "bank type bands"? Seems like I remember you posting something along those lines.

I don't know that it's that important in the big picture. I think three packets being rubber banded together arriving at Tena Bar is more logical than three individual packets arriving together. Makes much more sense that the packets were randomized into bundles. I'm afraid Georger is right though, we'll never get these answers.

Like many things in the Cooper case we never get to 100%...

That is why it has lasted 50+ years..

Tina bank type bands..

tinamoney.jpeg.d5c3b5b0d536fa089fc6d002e0a7e2fe.jpeg

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(edited)
21 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

From Larry Carr on the DB Cooper facebook page:

"The 302 relates to the money isn’t really clear. We know the money had rubber bands when found but the 302 says the money was banded in stacks of 100. I assume from the way it was written they were paper bank bands. But the 302 doesn’t specifically point out paper bands."

The 302's are clear, bank bands,, Carr doesn't get that the rubber bands were used for the bundles..not the packets of 100.

bank bands are paper bands

853206654_ScreenShot2022-08-16at7_26_24PM.png.6716c841ffc7dab66f9fe1bcf81384c2.png

7:19 in video

Himmelsbach.. Money was given to Cooper strapped in 100's and bundled with rubber bands..

A strap is bank lingo for 100 bills paper bank banded..

"There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands."

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)

Answer from Carr ...

" Here is Larry Carr’s answer regarding your question:

“The 302 that relates to the money isn’t really clear.  We know the money

had rubber bands when found, but the 302 says the money was banded in

stacks of 100.  I assume from the way it was written they were paper bank

bands.  But the 302 doesn’t specifically point out paper bands.”

Hope this helps.

Chaucer "

nothing mentioned about having talked to the bank employee ? Nothing about Larrys call or mine to Pat Ingram after Larry had supposedly talked to the bank guy. Tempus fugates in the maldum fornax!  Wither it goes nobody knows. 

Edited by georger

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(edited)
2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The 302's are clear, bank bands,, Carr doesn't get that the rubber bands were used for the bundles..not the packets of 100.

bank bands are paper bands

853206654_ScreenShot2022-08-16at7_26_24PM.png.6716c841ffc7dab66f9fe1bcf81384c2.png

7:19 in video

Himmelsbach.. Money was given to Cooper strapped in 100's and bundled with rubber bands..

A strap is bank lingo for 100 bills paper bank banded..

"There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands."

 

 

Himmelsbach was never wrong.  Which banks were named on the paper straps? Any bank telephone numbers etc . . . in case the straps were stolen or lost ?   ;)

Edited by georger

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9 hours ago, georger said:

Himmelsbach was never wrong.  Which banks were named on the paper straps? Any bank telephone numbers etc . . . in case the straps were stolen or lost ?   ;)

You have Tina, the bank guy in the FBI files, Himmelsbach and Tosaw corroborating bank bands..  could they all be wrong, it is possible but we need some solid evidence to challenge it.

But, if they were paper bands on the packets, bundled into groups of packets with rubber bands how does that change the TBAR scenario?

Paper bands would deteriorate in about 3 months in nature,, not long enough to reach spring '72.

If the paper bands were wet, how long would the glue hold?

 

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