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DB Cooper

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(edited)
9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, come on.  You can do better than this.  Of course Cooper was putting the parachute over the raincoat.  Sane people normally wear their raincoat when walking in the rain.  And I doubt very much that Cooper would lose his raincoat in the jump.

Was the man walking in the rain wearing shoes?  Based on the previous descriptions of Cooper's foot wear, he would probably be bare foot when he landed.

I assume he put the chute on over the raincoat but there is no mention of the raincoat in the files or by Tina.. I find it a bit odd that it isn't even mentioned.

The witness not noting the raincoat is irrelevant.

Edited by FLYJACK

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8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, where did the FDR mark of 8:09 come from?

There was a "little bob" noted on the FDR at approximately 8:09...  that effectively matches Solderlind's time (8:10) and may have been Cooper jumping. 

The plane was not on autopilot.. Rataczak said he was manually flying the plane.

 

184583230_fdr-bobcopy.jpg.0c5836ad549184d64ce18e7d3179eaf0.jpg

 

Soderlind noted the earliest Cooper likely jumped was point A, which about 8:09.. just North of the Lewis River...  and as you move toward the extremes the jump likelihood drops.

2131078712_ScreenShot2022-08-09at7_15_49AM.png.5970cef65b9c1aec355ac7222e8d1376.png

 

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The statement in the above 302, "and as far south as the Colombia River" is really mind blowing to me. Is this wide range just a function of it being so early on in the investigation, (12/2/71), that Soderlind hadn't quite had the time to go through all of the data yet and prune it down ? 

 

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34 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

The statement in the above 302, "and as far south as the Colombia River" is really mind blowing to me. Is this wide range just a function of it being so early on in the investigation, (12/2/71), that Soderlind hadn't quite had the time to go through all of the data yet and prune it down ? 

 

Yup, the LZ got narrowed down as the data was evaluated. Problem early on was they didn't know exactly where the plane was at a given time.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

The statement in the above 302, "and as far south as the Colombia River" is really mind blowing to me. Is this wide range just a function of it being so early on in the investigation, (12/2/71), that Soderlind hadn't quite had the time to go through all of the data yet and prune it down ? 

 

Indicates a communication time lag - uncertainty at several different levels. At least three groups were working on this - Air Force, pilots, "Sunderlandt", and the FBI does not make flight paths and drop zones! May seem confusing by today's standards ............ but at least they werent waiting on messengers traveling on horse back to deliver news to the Queen. Today we still wait on messengers to replace myth and propaganda with true facts! A guy getting his book published is more important than facts. Facts are always the last to arrive... 

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

The statement in the above 302, "and as far south as the Colombia River" is really mind blowing to me. Is this wide range just a function of it being so early on in the investigation, (12/2/71), that Soderlind hadn't quite had the time to go through all of the data yet and prune it down ? 

 

Reportedly, a jump zone location was worked up before the airliner even got to Reno.

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27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Tina saw Cooper put on the back chute after passengers deplaned but before the two stews left.

1526300780_ScreenShot2022-08-09at12_31_43PM.png.91ce6983ca0bac19299d7aafcb78659e.png

 

I was just reading her testimony in Martin’s book and did not see mention of him putting the chute on, but I knew I had read it somewhere. Thanks for posting. 

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(edited)

Tina is noted as saying she saw the red airstair indicator light come on at about 8:00.. it is officially amber but can be mistaken for red.

Since, the crew had previously reported the airstair light on.. this doesn’t make sense.

The only options..
Tina was mistaken/misquoted that she saw it come on and it was always on.
Cooper moved the lever back to the up detent position then forward again.
The first red light reported by the crew was mistakenly noted as an airstair light on the panel but was actually the rear door light.

 

1783460740_ScreenShot2022-08-09at2_20_42PM.png.ba5474d44e03e226b0720475e82c208d.png

 

FBI summary.. red light flashed in cockpit. Later, another light flashed showing the ramp was fully extended,, this is impossible.. they may have used Tina's statement of seeing a red light come on here but the stairs were never locked down indicated by a green light.. 

745658584_ScreenShot2022-08-09at5_46_43PM.png.bc8a60e3314405b4ce7c3690b737cc52.png

 

727 panel.. light looks red but is officially amber.

1650354386_ScreenShot2022-08-09at4_51_55PM.png.959a79718a93efe5e1c718000053d0fe.png

727 aft airstair lights for the cockpit are green (locked down) and amber (handle not in up detent and unlocked)

gJcbQ.png.f765584fdf1c6e1e2052038ab39af439.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

Where does this come from exactly? I can't find it any of the 302's that have been released so far. 

Thanks!

That is from the 302's given to Geoffrey Gray..  he released several files and some are available on Shutter's site in the vault, not sure if all of them are there.

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On 7/6/2021 at 7:31 PM, FLYJACK said:

Parachutist March 1981...

Article on the Pursuit of D B Cooper jump.

Last paragraph is interesting, the side canvas (not fibreglass Ulis) came loose and nearly took out Donnelly.

 

32.thumb.jpg.055d845cfb61001b7d2af1f910430ef4.jpg

33.thumb.jpg.e94cdd49451104294946cd21143b365d.jpg

 

NORJAK

norjakstairs.jpeg.ddd3edb4a8083f61d77d52e85610ff64.jpeg

Ok, here is my theory on the movie stunt...

Clearly, in the movie the airstairs do not bounce up and appear muted vs the images from the sled test which show the airstairs retract to almost closed...

First, is the speed, the movie jet looks slow,, but if you look at the image above showing two people jumping. This is not the same cut used for the movie clip, but represents the filming of the stunt. A cameraman goes first then "Cooper" but there is also cameraman (Carl Boenish) on the stairs inside the plane. He appears to be on the pivot section but would be unseen from the outside view. So, it may be that simple, in the movie there are two people on the stairs, the only person seen jumps. The weight of the unseen person on the airstairs mutes the rebound.

1568848600_ScreenShot2022-08-10at6_55_20AM.png.34cea740e98591e12973e0e38a7a94f0.png

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(edited)
15 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

Where does this come from exactly? I can't find it any of the 302's that have been released so far. 

Thanks!

It comes from the Campbell crew interviews - Hancock, Flo, Mucklow, Rat, Anderson,  etc ... I can cite the passages again but that takes time/work... those are the docs published by Gray, given to Shutter ... core testimony in the Cooper case.  

Hancock eg. :

During her final minutes on board and after the parachutes had been brought aboard, Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”.   Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board.

Edited by georger
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(edited)

R99 says:

The oscillations referred to the fluctuations in the cabin pressure.  They were caused by Cooper having to get below the hinge point on the stairs so that he could create enough space to jettison the items that were not tied to his body and/or parachute.

The bump was caused by the aft stairs hitting the fuselage immediately after Cooper jumped.

Again, I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in aircraft navigation, performance, the air traffic control system, or anything aeronautical go to the FAA's web page, work your way to their publications page and download the free publications related to your interests.  And read them.  In my always humble opinion, the FAA publications are extremely good.

 

So ...    Air Pressure events vs  Mechanical events .... ?   Is R99 correct or wrong?


 

Edited by georger

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19 minutes ago, georger said:

R99 says:

The oscillations referred to the fluctuations in the cabin pressure.  They were caused by Cooper having to get below the hinge point on the stairs so that he could create enough space to jettison the items that were not tied to his body and/or parachute.

The bump was caused by the aft stairs hitting the fuselage immediately after Cooper jumped.

Again, I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in aircraft navigation, performance, the air traffic control system, or anything aeronautical go to the FAA's web page, work your way to their publications page and download the free publications related to your interests.  And read them.  In my always humble opinion, the FAA publications are extremely good.

 

So ...    Air Pressure events vs  Mechanical events .... ?   Is R99 correct or wrong?


 

Air pressure, in the test the stairs did not hit the fuselage,, came within 8" of closing.

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(edited)
53 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Air pressure, in the test the stairs did not hit the fuselage,, came within 8" of closing.

Plus we have crew statements: "we could feel it in our ears" - that is pressure not mechanical only. R99 is just not a reliable source in these matters - he's all over the map and unable to focus or remember what he did just a few days ago. The test flight tested the basic issues in play and probably needs no further personal interpretation by latter day experts who think they know better. The test flight results have stood the test of time and need no latter day revision! I do believe there are a few things we can take for granted and reply on ... which means we are free to focus on other important issues - no disrespect to R99 intended but we do need to move on which is what Im trying to do!  For example, what does Tom's diatom work say or not say ? That needs to be clarified because it is important ...

Edited by georger

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(edited)
2 hours ago, georger said:

Plus we have crew statements: "we could feel it in our ears" - that is pressure not mechanical only. R99 is just not a reliable source in these matters - he's all over the map and unable to focus or remember what he did just a few days ago. The test flight tested the basic issues in play and probably needs no further personal interpretation by latter day experts who think they know better. The test flight results have stood the test of time and need no latter day revision! I do believe there are a few things we can take for granted and reply on ... which means we are free to focus on other important issues - no disrespect to R99 intended but we do need to move on which is what Im trying to do!  For example, what does Tom's diatom work say or not say ? That needs to be clarified because it is important ...

Georger, where did you come up with the idea that air pressure was ever mechanical.  I certainly did say that.

You are one of the people who desperately needs to visit the FAA web page, download some publications, read them, and learn something.  In the meantime, you don't know what you are talking about.

Edited by Robert99

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4 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, where did you come up with the idea that air pressure was ever mechanical.  I certainly did say that.

You are one of the people who desperately needs to visit the FAA web page, download some publications, read them, and learn something.  In the meantime, you don't know what you are talking about.

OK.  

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7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, where did you come up with the idea that air pressure was ever mechanical.  I certainly did NOT say that.

You are one of the people who desperately needs to visit the FAA web page, download some publications, read them, and learn something.  In the meantime, you don't know what you are talking about.

After further review, I see that I left out the word "NOT" in the original post.  Above is the correct version.

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(edited)

Blevins is trying to get a group to search the placard find location..

Don't bother..

Facts.

Placard came from the outside of a 727/737. (FBI) (ID number lists 727/737 models)

Placard was found right under V23 airway. (thousands of jets passed over that spot  '71-'78)

Placard could have come from any passing 727. (FBI)

Placard condition suggests it was recent. (1978)

Boeing employee said these things fall off all the time. (FBI)

 

Conclusion, placard did not come from Cooper opening the airstairs, it came from the outside of any passing 727/737 and based on the number of jets flying v23 it is a virtual certainty that it did not come from the outside of NORJAK.

Placard is a red herring. The time has passed to put the placard out of our misery.

Edited by FLYJACK
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11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Blevins is trying to get a group to search the placard find location..

Don't bother..

Facts.

Placard came from the outside of a 727/737. (FBI) (ID number lists 727/737 models)

Placard was found right under V23 airway. (thousands of jets passed over that spot  '71-'78)

Placard could have come from any passing 727. (FBI)

Placard condition suggests it was recent. (1978)

Boeing employee said these things fall off all the time. (FBI)

 

Conclusion, placard did not come from Cooper opening the airstairs, it came from the outside of any passing 727/737 and based on the number of jets flying v23 it is a virtual certainty that it did not come from the outside of NORJAK.

Placard is a red herring. The time has passed to put the placard out of our misery.

I thought he did that already. I also thought he was out of the Cooper biz...

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(edited)
1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Flo mentions him putting on the parachute. Did she hear this from Tina or see it? Skyjack does not mention him being good with the harness. Maybe Bruce’s book does. Martin’s book and podcast mention him being good with a harness. Skilled. 

6D24502F-D97E-4510-99D6-03D00625C27D.jpeg

TINA Mucklow then left the airplane again and returned with the two chest parachutes and made an additional trip to bring in the other back parachutes. She also gave the hijacker a sheet of instructions on how to use the parachutes, but he told her he did not need it.

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 8/10/2022 at 7:05 AM, FLYJACK said:

Clearly, in the movie the airstairs do not bounce up and appear muted vs the images from the sled test which show the airstairs retract to almost closed...

Your theory above is interesting, but what also caught my attention is the description you posted at Bruce's site of how the stairs operate. Moving the lever releases the stairs and allows them to drop by gravity. Pressing the button and moving the lever further engages the 'hydraulic assist'. If Cooper never figured out to press the button, then maybe the hydraulics never pressurized, allowing the door to move more freely. Maybe the system was pressurized on the movie jet.

-------

I miss Carl Boenish. He was one unique, interesting, fun-loving, likable dude.

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10 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Your theory above is interesting, but what also caught my attention is the description you posted at Bruce's site of how the stairs operate. Moving the lever releases the stairs and allows them to drop by gravity. Pressing the button and moving the lever further engages the 'hydraulic assist'. If Cooper never figured out to press the button, then maybe the hydraulics never pressurized, allowing the door to move more freely. Maybe the system was pressurized on the movie jet.

-------

I miss Carl Boenish. He was one unique, interesting, fun-loving, likable dude.

That has always been my theory,, Cooper did not press the button on the handle.. so no hydraulic assist, just gravity.

Now, try and figure out why the unlocked stair light came on at 7:42 (crew) and again at about 8:00 (Tina) and it wasn't the green fully extended and down light.

 

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