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DB Cooper

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(edited)
9 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I get all that. And Cossey was all over the place, so who knows what his trip was.

I was addressing the nomenclature and what all that means. I don't know who first came up with the term "Pioneer Steinthal", but using it as though it names a particular rig is not accurate. They were separate companies. Likely it refers to a container manufactured by Pioneer, containing a canopy manufactured by Steinthal, or something like that. And using that term as though it precludes the rig from being an NB-6/8 could also be inaccurate. It's quite possible that Pioneer made the NB containers. So then it would be like arguing whether a car is a Chevy or a Camaro.

Pioneer Steinthal is not any nomenclature,, It is just a shorthand description of the #60-9707 container and chute...

The FBI docs say #60-9707 was a Pioneer and the chute was a Steinthal.

It is possible for a Pioneer container to be an NB6.. Cossey described the chute Cooper took after being told the Pioneer was left on the plane.. so, Cossey never believed both were Pioneer's. He then described it as a modified NB6/8 Sage green nylon/Sage green nylon harness. He never referred to it as being a Pioneer and previously the chute was described as olive drab with a tan cotton harness. Plus, Hayden said his chutes were the same while Cossey claimed the two HE supplied were completely different.

Cossey's description stuck but was never corroborated by any evidence. It is clear Cossey never claimed or believed Cooper's chute was also a Pioneer, it would have been noted as a Pioneer NB6/8..

At 32:00 Cossey discusses the chutes.. 

He didn't provide the chutes,, Hayden did.. Cossey is a liar.

 

Cossey made a replica.. it was a Reliance.. not a Pioneer.

This is most certainly the one in the video.

b-cooper-replica-parachute-packed_1_59889d9af101947f735e40fbb29a08d9-5.jpg.c4bb8d813c06407358eb85c4b7e77398.jpg.f029bbba446232965f16c87cfd820e2e.jpg

A5A141F3-B900-4809-9355-1A88E8F7EBD7@vw.shawcable_net.jpeg.2d671469c9e966134777c067eeebf3a7.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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10 hours ago, georger said:

So all of this (3 packages) was submission Q59.

'Specimen Q59 contains (rounded) sand which indicates it was subjected to erosion processes, i.e. moving water, and is consistent with having come from sediment which is deposited by the Columbia River. Q59 is enclosed herewith. The disposition of Q58 will be furnished with. the results of the requested finger print examination.'

Then from another document:

'Q59 (is) Soil from submitted U. S. currency Result of examination Q58 unknown amout of currency will be sent separately . . . '   

So the tiny stuff is soil or sand from the bills or fragments ?    :$

Has the returned Hayden chute been swabbed for dna ?

 

g12fragments.jpg.53a3225314f4fc1dfbf3b8715a5cf86e.jpg

I can't tell what is in the bag or the writing on it but the plastic cases are money frags if you check a high res image.. the material in the bag looks smaller than the frags in the cases. Could be sand or tiny money frags.

and the case on the left says -1 mm, the right case looks to say 1 mm +,, so they were divided by size.. the sand was screened and sifted,, here there are four screens.. I assume they were different sizes.. It makes sense that frags could have been moved to the three foot level during the excavation process as Palmer stated. It was sloppy.

ZZALSH5P5RDSLC4ELBECLP4WTA.jpg.e619d746153d3da5a4d17b12a27f033d.jpg

Q58 was the money packets.. Q60 was one of the Bills the Ingrams kept then quickly returned. Q59 could not be later debris from envelops..

Hayden's chute was returned to him in the mid 70's and it was repacked so it was never checked for DNA...

Is it possible there might be some recoverable DNA now, from the container or the packing card??

 

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(edited)

Ckret actually stated the chute Cooper left was #60-9707, Steinthal. 60-9707 is the SN not the model, the labels for the data on the card can be misunderstood.. data above the line vs below the label.

88297FF5-4CD1-4864-9898-152F692089BC@vw.shawcable_net.jpeg.21bf5ce19e68ee1b29ecb3e83e7f0760.jpeg

Now,, the chute left on the plane that went back to Hayden was #226, 1957, not #60-9707, 1960.

Cooper used one of those Hayden chutes.

#60-9707 was the packing card found in the pocket of the back chute left on the plane, but #226 was returned to Hayden.

Two cards, two back chutes both packed by Cossey May 21, 1971, one back chute missing, #226 returned to Hayden.

#60-9707 had to be the chute Cooper used. 

So, why didn't anybody figure this out. They just accepted Cossey's error and subsequent lies to cover it up..

1297855071_ScreenShot2022-07-26at8_22_08AM.png.055ded67251258176998c90ca7be79e5.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

In the 302 snippet, what is the 24 foot reference to ?  the canopy ? the lines ?  If it is the canopy, is it a mistake as it seems most of the discussion is around either 26 or 28 foot canopy ? 

db-chute.JPG

The chute #226 that Hayden got back, the one left on the plane is a 26'..

The 28' description for the chute Cooper used came from one unreliable source,, Cossey.

There a few places where the #60-9707, 1960 back chute is called a 24' chute.

It could be a typo that got repeated or it could be that the chute Cooper used was actually a 24' chute.

 

Here, FBI doc describes property in evidence from the plane in Reno..

Back chute NB6 sage green/sage green was the one Cossey claimed Cooper used. (This description is wrong, how can they have the back chute Cooper used per Cossey.)

Then it states a Pioneer #226, 26ft, 1957 etc,, that was the one returned to Hayden. It is tan cotton/sage harness. (Accurate)

Then it states the 24ft #60-9707, 1960 Steinthal,,, (it says ID "cards" plural, in pocket)

We don't know for sure, but if we just eliminate everything Cossey said about the chutes then the chute Cooper used was probably the 24' #60-9707, July, 1960 Steinthal.

It is hard to separate Cossey's lies and errors within the FBI files....

1863685720_ScreenShot2022-07-26at10_05_29AM.png.af0aab07b394fcd31f552a3225f0dc81.png

 

Always keep in mind that the FBI 302's/files are investigative notes, not conclusions.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
40 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

1863685720_ScreenShot2022-07-26at10_05_29AM.png.af0aab07b394fcd31f552a3225f0dc81.png

The above description of the backpack found on the airliner at Reno and held by the FBI there as evidence is completely contradictory between the first and second paragraphs.

As I have pointed out at length on Shutter's site, the parachute that was returned to Hayden is absolutely not an NB-6 and does not have a single component from an NB-6.

If you want to know what an NB-6 parachute looks like, visit Sluggo's site which can now be accessed on Shutter's site and take a look at those pictures of an NB-6.

Edited by Robert99

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(edited)
33 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

The above description of the backpack found on the airliner at Reno and held by the FBI there as evidence is completely contradictory between the first and second paragraphs.

As I have pointed out at length on Shutter's site, the parachute that was returned to Hayden is absolutely not an NB-6 and does not have a single component from an NB-6.

If you want to know what an NB-6 parachute looks like, visit Sluggo's site which can now be accessed on Shutter's site and take a look at those pictures of an NB-6.

Yes, they injected Cossey's (incorrect) description into that file..

This is Cossey's Cooper replica, a 28' Reliance..

A5A141F3-B900-4809-9355-1A88E8F7EBD7@vw.shawcable_net.jpeg.fca58d3f9e620b619efb0eb3ca6b443b.jpeg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I can't tell what is in the bag or the writing on it but the plastic cases are money frags if you check a high res image.. the material in the bag looks smaller than the frags in the cases. Could be sand or tiny money frags.

and the case on the left says -1 mm, the right case looks to say 1 mm +,, so they were divided by size.. the sand was screened and sifted,, here there are four screens.. I assume they were different sizes.. It makes sense that frags could have been moved to the three foot level during the excavation process as Palmer stated. It was sloppy.

ZZALSH5P5RDSLC4ELBECLP4WTA.jpg.e619d746153d3da5a4d17b12a27f033d.jpg

Q58 was the money packets.. Q60 was one of the Bills the Ingrams kept then quickly returned. Q59 could not be later debris from envelops..

Hayden's chute was returned to him in the mid 70's and it was repacked so it was never checked for DNA...

Is it possible there might be some recoverable DNA now, from the container or the packing card??

 

Good observations. Yes. I see 1mm vs 1mm+. This could be material from the screening, on the 2nd and third day ?  DS was no longer there. DS left early on the 2nd day to do something else and never returned to the sandbar. I think you are correct w. respect to Q59.

I learned a long time ago not to predict dna being found after the fact on old material from crime scenes. Its always a crap  shoot. But today's techniques are better than  even ten years ago. It could be a very time consuming process in any event...

What happened to Tom's backup dna samples from the tie? His first samples done for the History channel documentary proved contaminated. Were his backup samples ever tested - any report? Has it fallen through the cracks in a media frenzy? 

Edited by georger

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It is unbelievable to me that the FBI could not read the packing card and did not get any parachutist to read it for them..

The chute left on the plane returned to Hayden.

The data is above the line and above the corresponding label,

The FBI thought the corresponding data was below the label.. example type was 226 according to the FBI,, it was the Serial No. not the type. 

hayden-pararchute-identification-card.thumb.jpg.a8028221911c9e646f56cca1192c607f.jpg

Returned to Hayden in 1975.

595991019_ScreenShot2022-07-26at3_09_35PM.png.4eb275db5561a36b889c5dd54c7b0f76.png

So, the card for SN 60-9707 must have belonged to the chute Cooper used..

Remember, the FBI could not get the chute packing records from Cossey (he knew he got the chute wrong) and did not figure out that they actually had the packing cards for both of Hayden's chutes packed same date May 21, 1971.

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(edited)

Cooper jumped with    TWO!     money containers ?       says Bruce Smith via Ulis ?

« Reply #7940 on: Today at 11:30:35 PM »

From Eric's research on the dummy chute, it seems like Cooper wrapped some of the money in the chute within the container. As a result, Cooper really jumped wearing two bags of money.

« Today at 11:30:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith »

Is it possible Cooper jumped twice - from two different planes?  The cosmic iterations waiting to be "researched",  are endless. Could we obtain the name of Cooper's mother from research on the dummy chute ?

Edited by georger

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10 hours ago, georger said:

Cooper jumped with    TWO!     money containers ?       says Bruce Smith via Ulis ?

« Reply #7940 on: Today at 11:30:35 PM »

From Eric's research on the dummy chute, it seems like Cooper wrapped some of the money in the chute within the container. As a result, Cooper really jumped wearing two bags of money.

« Today at 11:30:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith »

Is it possible Cooper jumped twice - from two different planes?  The cosmic iterations waiting to be "researched",  are endless. Could we obtain the name of Cooper's mother from research on the dummy chute ?

Ulis is claiming the bag was too small to tie the top with all the money in it and had to remove some.. to then put it in the dummy chute and secure to himself.

Of course he is just making it up...  Tina said when she returned with 2nd back chute, Cooper was cutting open one of the chest packs for the nylon cords, (good front chute). Cooper tied around the top of the bag and made a handle. So, Tina saw Cooper secure the money in the bag, she never mentioned the money being divided or separated to be placed in any other container...

1461644496_ScreenShot2022-07-27at7_31_37AM.png.350d1fafc4b7cc58820caed8d28f0abf.png

 

IMO, based on the fact that no parts of the dummy were found on the plane and it had no seal, was "soft" and appeared tampered with,, Cooper probably tossed it.

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On 7/26/2022 at 7:18 AM, FLYJACK said:

Pioneer Steinthal is not any nomenclature,, It is just a shorthand description of the #60-9707 container and chute...

The FBI docs say #60-9707 was a Pioneer and the chute was a Steinthal.

It is possible for a Pioneer container to be an NB6.. Cossey described the chute Cooper took after being told the Pioneer was left on the plane.. so, Cossey never believed both were Pioneer's. He then described it as a modified NB6/8 Sage green nylon/Sage green nylon harness. He never referred to it as being a Pioneer and previously the chute was described as olive drab with a tan cotton harness. Plus, Hayden said his chutes were the same while Cossey claimed the two HE supplied were completely different.

Cossey's description stuck but was never corroborated by any evidence. It is clear Cossey never claimed or believed Cooper's chute was also a Pioneer, it would have been noted as a Pioneer NB6/8..

At 32:00 Cossey discusses the chutes.. 

He didn't provide the chutes,, Hayden did.. Cossey is a liar.

 

Cossey made a replica.. it was a Reliance.. not a Pioneer.

This is most certainly the one in the video.

b-cooper-replica-parachute-packed_1_59889d9af101947f735e40fbb29a08d9-5.jpg.c4bb8d813c06407358eb85c4b7e77398.jpg.f029bbba446232965f16c87cfd820e2e.jpg

r

Your right

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(edited)
3 hours ago, JerryThomas said:

Your right

Is it possible Cossey never knew about Hayden's chutes, or the full story about what chutes people had collected provided ?  How would he know unless someone told him specifically ? Did Cossey and Hayden ever communicate about this?  If he didnt know I can see how this might degenerate into a debate and a controversy with reporters and others hounding Cossey ? A very large part of the Cooper story is a story about poor communications. It continues to this very day as witnessed by Bruce Smith's recent interview of Larry Carr! Both parties are at logger-heads with different information and zero common ground, and different motives!   

Emma called Georger the day after the hijacking and said: "The plane flew over here and was on fire! We dont know if it crashed or what !" Georger replied: "Gram, I havent seen that on the news." Emma's son Vern worked at Wilhelm Trucking with Janet and her husband. They attended the same church. Many people soon learned of the story later transmitted to Richard Tosaw and then to the newspapers, years later! The Cooper story is full of miss-information! There are people still making it up for the public, every single day. There are people working overtime to come up with novel twists and turns they then publish ... to keep people interested? People have very diverse backgrounds with which to judge and evaluate this chatter.

Edited by georger

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27 minutes ago, georger said:

Is it possible Cossey never knew about Hayden's chutes, or the full story about what chutes people had collected provided ?  How would he know unless someone told him specifically ? Did Cossey and Hayden ever communicate about this?  If he didnt know I can see how this might degenerate into a debate and a controversy with reporters and others hounding Cossey ? A large part of the Cooper story is a story about poor communication. It continues to this very day!  

Yes, very likely. 

He wouldn't know.

They never communicated.

 

IMO, Cossey initially assumed his back chutes were used and gave the description of his NB6 back chute because all the chutes were initially to come from Issaquah, but when Hayden's chutes were acquired only the fronts were needed from Issaquah. Initially, Cossey was unaware that the back chutes came from Hayden. He must have learned of his error soon after but never corrected the record.. instead he spun lies over the years to maintain it. That included not giving the FBI his packing records because it would expose his error and lies.

 

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(edited)
34 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, very likely. 

He wouldn't know.

They never communicated.

 

Initially, Cossey was unaware that the back chutes came from Hayden. He must have learned of his error soon after but never corrected the record.. instead he spun lies over the years to

 

He must have learned of his error soon after ?

How? When? Who told him? Did anyone ever tell him .... ?  

Does Cossey ever publicly acknowledge Hayden chutes anywhere, ever ?

Did someone from the media tell him finally? What year?  .............................

Cossey's feud with the press went on for decades. Then it turns out the packing cards on Hayden's chutes are signed by, guess who. Cossey! Cossey is all over the chute story - like it or not.

It's all in a day's work - in the Cooper Cult ?  Always black vs white. Never any gray. All or nothing. Total control of the story at all times. Until it collapses the next day, and then we are back to ground zero with new rounds of certainty and guessing broadcast by someone ...

Edited by georger

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14 minutes ago, georger said:

He must have learned of his error soon after ?

How? When? Who told him? Did anyone ever tell him .... ?  

Does Cossey ever publicly acknowledge Hayden chutes anywhere, ever ?

Did someone from the media tell him finally? What year?  .............................

Cossey's feud with the press went on for decades. Then it turns out the packing cards on Hayden's chutes are signed by, guess who. Cossey! Cossey is all over the chute story - like it or not.

It's all in a day's work - in the Cooper Cult ?  Always black vs white. Never any gray. All or nothing. Total control of the story at all times. Until it collapses the next day, and then we are back to ground zero with new rounds of certainty broadcast by someone ...

Cossey never acknowledged Hayden and denied it..

He would have known soon after because it would have been obvious his chutes weren't used. Nobody would have to tell him, it would have been self evident.

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It almost certainly was Cooper that pulled out the packing card. The bigger question is why? What was was he looking for on the packing card? How could the information on the packing card help him? I think there might be an obvious answer but I'm waiting to hear if there's another reason he might have been looking at the packing card? From a sky diver's point of view is there any reason Cooper needed to look at the packing card?,

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38 minutes ago, haggarknew said:

It almost certainly was Cooper that pulled out the packing card. The bigger question is why? What was was he looking for on the packing card? How could the information on the packing card help him? I think there might be an obvious answer but I'm waiting to hear if there's another reason he might have been looking at the packing card? From a sky diver's point of view is there any reason Cooper needed to look at the packing card?,

If he knew anything about parachutes and how to use them, then knowing what kind of canopy is in the rig would help him. That information would be on the packing card.

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(edited)

On p.30 of Tosaw's book, he claims the first thing Cooper did was remove the packing card from the parachute pocket. 

 

Tina interview..

She also commented that he appeared to be completely familiar with the parachutes which had been furnished to him.

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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You think Cooper knew who Cossey was? Ha, you're tipping your (Haggar's?) hand there.

But from an objective viewpoint, I think Cooper was hoping to get mains for 'back' rigs. When he got the bailout rigs, which are reserves, he would want to know what the canopies were. A rigger will sometimes note which kind, if any, of steerability the canopy has. Cossey did not note that, but Cooper wouldn't know that until he looked at the card. The fact that he even knew to look at the cards would show at least some familiarity with parachutes.

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