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DB Cooper

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5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Great question, I have been wondering if his demands were misinterpreted by Tina in her notes for the pilots...  maybe he wanted the configuration later (Mexico) or when he signalled it..

Maybe she wrote the note in a way that was not what Cooper intended..

We will never know..

Maybe, but why mention it then as opposed to waiting until you wanted them changed? But you're right, we will never know.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Maybe, but why mention it then as opposed to waiting until you wanted them changed? But you're right, we will never know.

 

 

because it is hard to communicate specifics later..

For example,,,  what if Cooper said "when we reach Mexico" flaps down, wheels down etc.. but Tina didn't write down "when we reach Mexico"..

It always bugged me that he knew about aviation and fuelling but got the range wrong..

Edited by FLYJACK
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50 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Here is a potentially dumb question: It seems that having the flaps down caused a few problems for Cooper. Could those have not been changed in the air, as he got closer to jumping? Why have them down the whole time?

That could be a tradeoff of clues. On one hand, if he asks for the flaps to be lowered sometime during the flight, that could help pinpoint his jump location. On the other hand, giving up the distance range in order to have them down the whole time might indicate a planned sooner jump. What would the range of that plane be flaps up, gear up and higher altitude? Would they make it to Mexico without refueling? As far as them misinterpreting the timing of his flap/gear demands, when they start talking about a fairly quick refueling need, that would clue him in to that?

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8 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

"He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?]"

This  goes with my thoughts in that Cooper likely did not land in water.  I say not likely, but that does not mean impossible. But given that most of the drop zone was land, it is unlikely that he landed in water. 

There were 3 packets of bills found at Tena Bar, $6000 or so.  This is very possibly the same amount of money that was taken out of the bag and handed to Tina, then maybe put back in the bag?? Or into the raincoat, or Tina kept it.

I realize that this money is one of our only clues, but many people in case want to use the $6000 to define what happened to the other $193,000.  My stance is that it is possible that the $6000 was separated from the $193,000 early on in the event and that the $193,000 is still out there buried, or disintegrated, or was spent, etc.

Im not sure who came up with the Wash Theory first - but my sense is it began with the Bradley report. Let me check dates ...   H instructed his agents to tell the press the money had come from the Washougal. (I have that from H,JT, and 2 agents who were at the excavation). I came to believe that H actually believed this account. .......... he actually said to me, quote: "what else would it be ...?" keep in mind some of the agents are still living and I can communicate with them still ... I asked Schreuder if he believed the Washougal theory and he laughed and said "No" (laughter). "But thats what we were told told to say by Ralph".              funny.        BTW, Keep in mind Tom may have a different take on this .?

My sense is when the money was discovered in 1980 the FBI was hard pressed to explain it - the FBI doesnt like being put in that position so they asked for expert advice (quick). I have not found any agent who worked the excavation who believed in the Washougal theory. Dorwin believes in the dredging theory. He has swayed me ... with reservations ? 

Edited by georger

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9 hours ago, georger said:

 

My sense is when the money was discovered in 1980 the FBI was hard pressed to explain it - the FBI doesnt like being put in that position so they asked for expert advice (quick). I have not found any agent who worked the excavation who believed in the Washougal theory. Dorwin believes in the dredging theory. He has swayed me ... with reservations ? 

Yes, the hypocrisy is that the FBI trashes speculation and claims the investigative high ground then they speculate to provide a solution..

Sometime in 1972 they shifted to publicly pushing the Cooper died in the jump theory.. a convenient solution if you haven't solved the case.. it is also PR against hijacking, if people believed Cooper got away with it more may try it.

The dredge,, IMO, problems with the dredge theory are having the money go through it and end up in the condition it was found.. seems very unlikely. Also, you have to explain how the money got into the river in the first place,, that is the more important question than how it got onto the shore.

We know the money doesn't float and sinks and the money spot was under water yearly. High water was in Spring. The best explanation is that the money was pushed along the bottom (in Spring) when the River level was above the money find spot and it became embedded there.

There are many theories for the money getting into the River but the Washougal is way way down the list..

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Ulis just did a podcast..

Yikes, Ulis still making lots of errors..  said he did a new show maybe out this/next month. Still flogging his crazy burial/retrieval theory.. complete nonsense.

 

Pro tip, set to 2X speed.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Another takeaway I had from the Larry Carr interviews is that the FBI is not doing anything on this case, and unless you have a $20 bill or some other huge item, then the government is not taking this anywhere. Translated, it will be a citizen sleuth who takes this to the next step.

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31 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Another takeaway I had from the Larry Carr interviews is that the FBI is not doing anything on this case, and unless you have a $20 bill or some other huge item, then the government is not taking this anywhere. Translated, it will be a citizen sleuth who takes this to the next step.

I don't think they want it solved, there is no prosecution now.,, they want the public narrative to be that Cooper lost all the money and died in the jump.

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The US government, any agency, military, politician, etc, rarely will admit fault.  It just does not happen that way.  There are scapegoats, which there does not seem to be in the DB Cooper case, but no one will admit that they did not get their man.  Now, if this somehow became political between Democrats and Republicans, then I guarantee the case would move forward.  That won't happen.  Bottom line is that we can't expect the FBI to say "Cooper lived, and got away with the money."  Even though there are probably FBI agents who believe that.  I'll be curious to see if Larry Carr adjusts his theory as the years go by.  If Cooper did die, then there are plenty of methods to find him, and frankly this case would be easier to solve if he did die.

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The dredge,, IMO, problems with the dredge theory are having the money go through it and end up in the condition it was found.. seems very unlikely. Also, you have to explain how the money got into the river in the first place,, that is the more important question than how it got onto the shore.

We know the money doesn't float and sinks and the money spot was under water yearly. High water was in Spring. The best explanation is that the money was pushed along the bottom (in Spring) when the River level was above the money find spot and it became embedded there.

There are many theories for the money getting into the River but the Washougal is way way down the list..

I actually like the dredge theory. But I think getting the answers to this part of the mystery is even less likely than figuring out who Cooper was. Cooper himself probably couldn't even tell you how the money wound up in the Columbia and onto TB.

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23 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Portland ATC comment...  Larry was referring to. It doesn't put the plane over the Washougal basin.

It has turned into a busy day here so will post tonight about this, including lab reports, Tom's work, ... anything that could connect money with the Washougal Basin. Note I said basin because: all FBI reports I have speak about the money 'potentially' having landed in the 'tributaries' of the Washougal vs the Washougal itself. Moreover, only some chain of flood events could have brought the money bag to the Washougal for a later deposit in the Columbia... so this is all speculation. But there are no lab reports (Kaye or FBI) that were able to link the money to the Washougal Basin but did link the money to "Columbia River Water". My sense is the FBI jumped on the Washougal as a diversion lacking anything better (more concrete) to do. But all Lab reports found only Columbia River sands and nothing connected to Washougal geology. 

It's unfortunate the money wasn't recovered at Tina Bar !

Edited by georger

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Do we know if Cooper's coat was for sure a raincoat or was it an overcoat?  It's been a while since I've worn suits regularly, but when I wore them more often, I had a raincoat and an overcoat, but I would not travel with both.  Basically when it rained, I'd pull out the raincoat.  I guess if I was on the road a lot, I'd have both with me.  Does Cooper travel with both? Or because it rains a lot in Seattle, does he have that raincoat with him at all times? We talk about the tie being bought second hand, the suit too, but I have not heard much talk about the raincoat/overcoat being bought second hand.  We may never know, but if he owned everything, that is different than him buying everything at the last minute.

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9 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Do we know if Cooper's coat was for sure a raincoat or was it an overcoat?  It's been a while since I've worn suits regularly, but when I wore them more often, I had a raincoat and an overcoat, but I would not travel with both.  Basically when it rained, I'd pull out the raincoat.  I guess if I was on the road a lot, I'd have both with me.  Does Cooper travel with both? Or because it rains a lot in Seattle, does he have that raincoat with him at all times? We talk about the tie being bought second hand, the suit too, but I have not heard much talk about the raincoat/overcoat being bought second hand.  We may never know, but if he owned everything, that is different than him buying everything at the last minute.

No we don't know.. FBI files and witnesses were all over the place..

"black rain-type overcoat or dark topcoat;"

Mitchell said raincoat..

A raincoat is water-proof or water resistant while an overcoat is for warmth..

It was probably a raincoat given the weather/temp but it may be a distinction without a difference.

He probably put the chute on over the "raincoat",, but witnesses never said.

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15 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Ulis just did a podcast..

Yikes, Ulis still making lots of errors..  said he did a new show maybe out this/next month. Still flogging his crazy burial/retrieval theory.. complete nonsense.

 

Pro tip, set to 2X speed.

 

I guess there is a market for this kind of thing, and people like Ulis. It's foreign to my whole experience, almost. EU strikes me as a 'wnnabe' who is in completely over his head, and may be sinking. Maybe his friends can save him from being: "one of the worlds leading experts on the DB Cooper case". Before this he tried poker card shows but made millions? - stock brokering? - running for Congress - selling shoes ? Maybe his next gig will be as  "one of the worlds leading experts on the DB Cooper case" in the Ace Hardware paint Dept? I dont know what else to say. He needs a shave ?  All of his videos are very tedious to have to wade through. Bring ten cups of coffee ...

Edited by georger

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R99 posts:

As far as I can tell, no one has asked any member of the flight crew (or even Tina) this simple question.  Did you pass Portland on the east side, west side, or did you fly directly over Portland International Airport?  Robert99  6/9/22

The list of names could be expanded to include a whole list of people that had direct knowledge at the time! They have (or were) never asked either!

It is impossible to play 'catch-up' in 2022. No serology done on the cigarette butts when the FBI still had them. Serology did exist in pre-dna 1971 and crime investigations regularly used it - I grew up in that era. Same for the cup. We might at least have Cooper's blood type ? . . . By 1980 however the Lab is actually examining sand types found between the newly discovered bills - so somebody had his or her head screwed on straight in a small piece of the DB Cooper case.

Robert or EU or Kaye or Carr could call Tina up and ask her! Or any of a very long list of other people involved in the Cooper case.   

* I asked the former Manager of the Troutdale Airport R99's very question years ago - he knew the answer. I posted that info but it did not count. You must be a 'celebrity' to have any credibility in this case!

The Manager of the Troutdale Airport said 'west side of PDX' based on conversations he had with the FBI and managers at PDX - The Manager of the Troutdale Airport stayed on duty until 305 had passed out of WA airspace. He said 305 was restricted from flying over PDX ...

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

R99 posts:

As far as I can tell, no one has asked any member of the flight crew (or even Tina) this simple question.  Did you pass Portland on the east side, west side, or did you fly directly over Portland International Airport?  Robert99  6/9/22

The list of names could be expanded to include a whole list of people that had direct knowledge at the time! They have (or were) never asked either!

It is impossible to play 'catch-up' in 2022. No serology done on the cigarette butts when the FBI still had them. Serology did exist in pre-dna 1971 and crime investigations regularly used it - I grew up in that era. Same for the cup. We might at least have Cooper's blood type ? . . . By 1980 however the Lab is actually examining sand types found between the newly discovered bills - so somebody had his or her head screwed on straight in a small piece of the DB Cooper case.

Robert or EU or Kaye or Carr could call Tina up and ask her! Or any of a very long list of other people involved in the Cooper case.   

* I asked the former Manager of the Troutdale Airport R99's very question years ago - he knew the answer. I posted that info but it did not count. You must be a 'celebrity' to have any credibility in this case!

The Manager of the Troutdale Airport said 'west side of PDX' based on conversations he had with the FBI and managers at PDX - The Manager of the Troutdale Airport stayed on duty until 305 had passed out of WA airspace. He said 305 was restricted from flying over PDX ...

For the record, Georger told me at least 10 years ago that the Troutdale Airport manager said "west side of PDX".

And if I remember correctly, my very first post here on DropZone was in 2010 and pointed out that the so-called FBI flight path was not believable.  That ruffled some feathers based on responses to that post. 

Edited by Robert99

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

For the record, Georger told me at least 10 years ago that the Troutdale Airport manager said "west side of PDX".

And if I remember correctly, my very first post here on DropZone was in 2010 and pointed out that the so-called FBI flight path was not believable.  That ruffled some feathers based on responses to that post. 

and have you moved from that position from 2010...

Edited by FLYJACK
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6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

For the record, Georger told me at least 10 years ago that the Troutdale Airport manager said "west side of PDX".

And if I remember correctly, my very first post here on DropZone was in 2010 and pointed out that the so-called FBI flight path was not believable.  That ruffled some feathers based on responses to that post. 

well! I'm honored. I guess that confirms my prior remarks were received and logged. 73s R99. ..... ..  The former manager may still be alive? He was fun to talk to and remembered everything in detail ... Had a long career. I think Darren would love talking to him ? Might make a nice podcast? Himmelsbach had even flown in and out of his airport ... we actually discussed the people who were flying in/out of private airports that night ... several came into Troutdale and stayed put until 305 had passed PDX. He kept Troutdale closed until 305 was gone ... he had comments about the WX that night. Great informative discussion.

Edited by georger

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and have you moved from that position from 2010...

No.  Basically, the so-called FBI flight path can be dismissed by simple inspection.  However, I think I listed more reasons than that in dismissing it.

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