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DB Cooper

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We had a  case in my State where a foreigner murdered a jogger. Vid taps of him stalking the women in his car surfaced. At trial he suddenly claimed it was others traveling with him who killed the woman! This went around and around for weeks. The vids tapes were good - usable. I finally got on the phone and called the lead prosecutor and told him to look for the number of occupants in the car - in all of the vid tapes! The prosecutor replied: why of course! we never thought of that... they re-examined the tapes and saw only one person in the car. They presented that evidence the next day and it saved weeks of Courtroom filings/antics ...

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26 minutes ago, georger said:

When Carr says the FBI "did everything in its power" to find DB Cooper, he likewise admits the FBI failed to take care of its "evidence"! That is a little bit like a mother saying after the fact: "I did everything in my power to protect my baby, except I forgot to turn off the bathtub water." ! Fact: Carr is not a forensically trained agent. Science is not his strong suit or his first inclination - pounding the streets and interviewing is. He said this over and over multiple times. He says as an afterthought, the FBI screwed up and mishandled the Cooper evidence. Just as he may be screwing up the evidence and the opportunities for hard forensic evidence - today. Tom Kaye is not a large lab! Eric Ulis is not a forensic expert of any kind! But Darren did a good job of keeping 'evidence' in the interview, and he kept returning to it. I doubt Kaye or Carr will come here to answer any questions or have dialogue. He would go to Shutter's site first. Still Carr is to be congratulated for opening the Cooper case up to the public at all.

Carr brought up the '76 Conference. Where do we go from here. Nobody apparently recommended falling back on better forensics ....... to develop leads! In spite of the fact there have always been supremely competent forensic people at Quantico who could have made recommendations - they were not included in the conversation. And except for Tom Kaye today, forensics is still playing a minor role today. When are these people ever going to learn! ?  

Georger: I'm with you on this one.  As I was listening, I realized that Larry Carr was referring to the tried and true methods of law enforcement, which were knocking on doors and the belief that criminals get caught because they talk.  Apparently this is the case most of the time, but clearly the DB Cooper case did not go that way, so the knocking on doors and waiting for someone to talk just may not have worked out.   Larry actually says in the podcast that there were sort of two groups in the FBI, one was the "knuckle draggers" his words, the former street cops it sounded like, and the other was a group that focused more on long term investigations, warrants, etc.  That makes sense from people I've talked to and friends in different agencies.  The ones who wanted to do the tactical stuff leaned more towards city police, or DEA, and the higher level investigative work interested people who went into the FBI or State Police.  I am generalizing here, but it sounds like Larry is more of the former, wanting to do bank robbery and the hardcore law enforcement work, but he got stuck on domestic terrorism to start.  I can relate in that I prefer a field job to a desk job, or at least I did when I was younger.

In 1971 I think they thought they would catch him, so looking into every suspect made sense, but in hindsight that was looking for a needle in a haystack.

 

Edit: I feel like the FBI was looking at Cooper as a lifetime criminal who had done crimes before and would act like a crook and tell his buddies about the crime or brag to some person in a bar.  But what if this was Cooper's only crime and what if he never told anyone, except maybe his wife or his accomplice?  If that was the case, then waiting for someone to talk is futile.

Edited by CooperNWO305
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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

when Larry said there are no conspiracies in the Government.. I had to chuckle..

 

rolled my eyes... funny.  But again, Darren did a good job - that kid has talent!

Why do I think new searching in the Washougal may start soon? Waste of time? ... ??

BTW if people dont know. Jerry Thomas lost his wife recently. I may try to call him tomorrow to catch up ...

Edited by georger

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The silver nitrate print method was used for "wet" surfaces, unlikely it was used on the tie. 

Standard fingerprint powders can contain many of the particles found.

However, the tie was tested for body fluids and there are several tests available including luminescence or sodium hydroxide..

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On 6/5/2022 at 1:32 PM, georger said:

Cooper would have been trapped had the stairs not opened. He banked everything on that. If his bomb was not real then what happens when they land at Reno . . . ? R99 makes a point that Cooper might have been familiar with other versions of the 727 but not commercial 727's? That might explain Cooper asking the cockpit to lower the stairs first. Now he must fabricate a container for the money and his chutes had no D rings! Its one problem after another for Cooper.

I think much is going to depend on Cooper's dna or some other piece of forensic evidence TK or someone else can trace. I think Ulis is useless in this whole matter and may be complicating everything for everyone! People must find a way to work around these social media 'heroic insiders' who claim special knowledge/insight.  

Useless?? You are the only useless one jerry all you do is critique and bitch but what do you actually contribute besides discouragement? I’ll tell you what eric did he got off a bias and gets dirty in the McCrone stubs to further forensic researcher which you are all for? There wouldn’t be a db cooper mystery group today if we allowed goerger in… he would of been rude and run anybody off that dared to speculate on a case you can only speculate on. Erics TiSb finding on the tie is the only thread left that could lead us to an ID… it’s true commercial DNA! Eric has also put the case in the mass media for us via history and discover and has put together annual events for research presentation and discussions that include first hand players! Jerry  won’t even go on the cooper vortex. You are the true definition of a peanut gallery Jer… I think if you humbled yourself you could of really been an asset to NORJAK G… but your attitude is a bigger complication then anything I’ve seen from EU.

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

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5 hours ago, georger said:

rolled my eyes... funny.  But again, Darren did a good job - that kid has talent!

Why do I think new searching in the Washougal may start soon? Waste of time? ... ??

BTW if people dont know. Jerry Thomas lost his wife recently. I may try to call him tomorrow to catch up ...

It won’t because you can’t place that Columbia may-June Formosa In the washougal river it’s exclusive to the CR. Wow a compliment from Jer? After all the shit talk from you on Darrens show… now the kid has talent ay? Why am I not surprised. Sorry to here about JT’s wife though that sucks! 

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The silver nitrate print method was used for "wet" surfaces, unlikely it was used on the tie. 

Standard fingerprint powders can contain many of the particles found.

However, the tie was tested for body fluids and there are several tests available including luminescence or sodium hydroxide..

Looks like some bad speculation on Larry’s part co-signed by Jerry… Wrong again! Thanks for the the insight fly.

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

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(edited)

Dr Edwards posted the gate clerk testimony..

 

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22607125-d-b-cooper-the-gate-clerk

The gate clerk testimony was already posted in part 11 p 324. According to the un-redacted Gray files, his name is Hal V Williams..

 

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22607196-d-b-cooper-the-testimony-of-lew-wallick

Dr Edwards is still wrong.. Rataczak said he was manually flying the plane and he felt the stairs come down. The autopilot claim in the FBI docs is incorrect at least for the Wa state leg..

 

The only mystery is why Edwards can't get the facts right. 

 

Right after the pressure bump/oscillation Rataczak told ATC to mark their shrimp boat (radar screen) then he called NWA/Soderlind before reaching the suburbs of Portland. There were two comms, not one. Those comms were recorded but we don't have them. 

It is clear Cooper jumped N of approximately Battleground, just as the "FBI/Soderlind determined. They had those comms.

The only way Cooper to argue Cooper didn't jump N of about Battleground (to about the Lewis R) is to somehow claim the pressure bump was not Cooper leaving the plane and that is a heavy lift.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Larry's comments on the Washougal had me looking at a map to see how far the Washougal was from the actual jump spot.  It is a good distance, and I just don't see it.  As I was playing around, I used the map to draw a straight line from SEATAC to Mexico City and one to Reno.  Attached is a rough attempt to see how those lines would look (granted this is on a map and not a globe, so a straight line would be a little off, but not too much).  What strikes me as unusual is that the line to Mexico City goes over completely different areas than the one to Reno, and those are both different from where he jumped.

If Cooper did plan a jump spot, then he had to have been flexible, because once the plane leaves SEATAC he does not know for sure where it will go.  Did he hope it would go through Portland?  Did he hope the stairs would work?  Sometimes I think he planned every step, and other times I think he just didn't care and winged it as he went.

Map to Reno and Mexico City.pdf

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20 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Larry's comments on the Washougal had me looking at a map to see how far the Washougal was from the actual jump spot.  It is a good distance, and I just don't see it.  As I was playing around, I used the map to draw a straight line from SEATAC to Mexico City and one to Reno.  Attached is a rough attempt to see how those lines would look (granted this is on a map and not a globe, so a straight line would be a little off, but not too much).  What strikes me as unusual is that the line to Mexico City goes over completely different areas than the one to Reno, and those are both different from where he jumped.

If Cooper did plan a jump spot, then he had to have been flexible, because once the plane leaves SEATAC he does not know for sure where it will go.  Did he hope it would go through Portland?  Did he hope the stairs would work?  Sometimes I think he planned every step, and other times I think he just didn't care and winged it as he went.

Map to Reno and Mexico City.pdf 195.67 kB · 1 download

Larry exaggerated the Portland ATC comment that the plane was E of V-23. It does eliminate the Western Flightpath but doesn't support the Washougal theory.

The ATC radar guy said 1-2 miles E of the centre of the flyway... which is still within the 8 mile wide V-23 corridor and is consistent with the "FBI" flightpath..

The Washougal theory is a convenient speculation.. but doesn't really make sense.

Cooper said going to Mexico City, can't land in US for any reason but can refuel anywhere in Mexico.. they had actually planned a refuel stop in Mazatlan.. His demand wasn't to fly nonstop to Mexico City.

As I have argued Cooper did not jump were he initially planned.. he had no way of knowing where the plane would be when he did jump. If he was initially jumping further South he could have given instructions in the air closer to the jump spot. That may be why he initially never gave a flightpath...

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Larry exaggerated the Portland ATC comment that the plane was E of V-23. It does eliminate the Western Flightpath but doesn't support the Washougal theory.

The ATC radar guy said 1-2 miles E of the centre of the flyway... which is still within the 8 mile wide V-23 corridor and is consistent with the "FBI" flightpath..

The Washougal theory is a convenient speculation.. but doesn't really make sense.

Cooper said going to Mexico City, can't land in US for any reason but can refuel anywhere in Mexico.. they had actually planned a refuel stop in Mazatlan.. His demand wasn't to fly nonstop to Mexico City.

As I have argued Cooper did not jump were he initially planned.. he had no way of knowing where the plane would be when he did jump. If he was initially jumping further South he could have given instructions in the air closer to the jump spot. That may be why he initially never gave a flightpath...

I don't remember seeing the reference to Mazatlan.  Is that in the 302s?  Good point about possibly changing the destination in flight. That would have been an option for him.

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1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I don't remember seeing the reference to Mazatlan.  Is that in the 302s?  Good point about possibly changing the destination in flight. That would have been an option for him.

I think it is the crew transcripts,, I did a word search but didn't find it..

It said something like we had planned a fuel stop in Mazatlan but it turned out to be unnecessary..

I know it is there somewhere. I'll have to find it..

Found this.. if true and Cooper agreed to Sacramento a smaller airport but rejected SF and LA then it wasn't about going over the water and he expected to be on the plane when it landed.

 

321960958_ScreenShot2022-06-07at10_26_49AM.png.4bf170973a38827557f5f260877a8583.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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He mentioned maps too, but that does not get a lot of publicity.  We don't know if those are aeronautical maps or street maps.  As I understand, Hahneman jumped into the jungle with no real plan, as did some of the other hijackers.  So a hijacker jumping with no plan may not be that unusual.  

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Larry exaggerated the Portland ATC comment that the plane was E of V-23. It does eliminate the Western Flightpath but doesn't support the Washougal theory.

The ATC radar guy said 1-2 miles E of the centre of the flyway... which is still within the 8 mile wide V-23 corridor and is consistent with the "FBI" flightpath..

The Washougal theory is a convenient speculation.. but doesn't really make sense.

Cooper said going to Mexico City, can't land in US for any reason but can refuel anywhere in Mexico.. they had actually planned a refuel stop in Mazatlan.. His demand wasn't to fly nonstop to Mexico City.

As I have argued Cooper did not jump were he initially planned.. he had no way of knowing where the plane would be when he did jump. If he was initially jumping further South he could have given instructions in the air closer to the jump spot. That may be why he initially never gave a flightpath...

Do we have thee 302 that references (proves) Soderlind's alleged comment, Larry says he found in the files? Im a little curious myself - when did Soderlind make this comment and in what context?  

Edited by georger

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BTW. someone has asked why I have the crazy (ridiculous) icon I have at this forum - it was chosen to piss Jo Weber off! She hated this icon.............. maybe I should change it?

Edited by georger

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I see no reason not to print this - from the BRADLEY REPORT discussing options for money having arrived at Tina Bar:

Mr. BRADLEY advised the only likely river feeding the Columbia River within the above described drop zone that would be capable of moving several bundles of money or a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River would be the Washougal River. A logical time, if the money came down the Washougal, would have been during the December 2, 1977 Washougal flood when parts of the river were approximately ten feet over the normal winter flood stage.

There are several other streams that feed the Columbia River upstream from the FAZIO Brothers’ farm; however, due to size, or the degree of slope of the streams, it is unlikely that a small package would have made it to the Columbia. It is also unlikely that a small package would have passed through Lacamas Lake down stream to the Columbia.

Mr. BRADLEY stated that based on the three feet per second speed of the Columbia River, if a small package entered the Columbia River at Washougal, Washington and floated in the main stream of the river to the FAZIO brothers’ farm, a distance approximately thirty miles, it would take 14.7 hours. This is assuming that the package did not tumble along the bottom of the river or get caught on any snags.

Mr. BRADLEY stated that numerous streams feed the Columbia downstream from the FAZIO Brothers farm including the Lewis River which would move a small package to the Columbia; however, it is not possible that it  would move upstream to the area the money was located.

Mr. BRADLEY provided a topographical map which includes the above described area.

 

and from the PALMER REPORT:

Professor PALMER displayed a U.S. Geological Survey- Topographical Map, Bridal Veil Washington - Oregon Section, which reflected a twelve mile cross section of the drainage basin for the Washougal River. It is from this area, the Professor felt the money likely originated from.

He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?]

Professor PALMER concluded by saying he had been studying beach sediments since 1951 and his conclusions are based upon his experience in this field since that time.

Professor PALMER furnished a diagram of the beach sediment profile as it was found at Tena Bar. A Xeroxed copy of this profile is attached.

 

SO: we have a chain of references to the Washougal starting with some Soderlind comment ... which starts and builds the case for a Washougal Washdown Theory.

Edited by georger

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28 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

He mentioned maps too, but that does not get a lot of publicity.  We don't know if those are aeronautical maps or street maps.  As I understand, Hahneman jumped into the jungle with no real plan, as did some of the other hijackers.  So a hijacker jumping with no plan may not be that unusual.  

Everybody has a plan..  they only divulge it when they need to.

My scenario,, initially Cooper has a plan to jump further South of US border.. he would have given flight instructions in the air closer to the jump destination. That is why he never gave a fightpath or coords in his initial demands. When SF and LA was suggested he rejected them for being too large, he still thought he would be on the plane when it landed in the US to refuel. After Reno was agreed to Cooper changed his plan and wanted to jump ASAP (now wanted airstairs down on takeoff), probably scared to be on the plane in Reno. He was delayed by trouble opening the stairs but had no idea where the plane would have been. There is no way he jumped where he had planned.

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4 minutes ago, georger said:

I see no reason not to print this - from the BRADLEY REPORT discussing options for money having arrived at Tina Bar:

Mr. BRADLEY advised the only likely river feeding the Columbia River within the above described drop zone that would be capable of moving several bundles of money or a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River would be the Washougal River. A logical time, if the money came down the Washougal, would have been during the December 2, 1977 Washougal flood when parts of the river were approximately ten feet over the normal winter flood stage.

There are several other streams that feed the Columbia River upstream from the FAZIO Brothers’ farm; however, due to size, or the degree of slope of the streams, it is unlikely that a small package would have made it to the Columbia. It is also unlikely that a small package would have passed through Lacamas Lake down stream to the Columbia.

Mr. BRADLEY stated that based on the three feet per second speed of the Columbia River, if a small package entered the Columbia River at Washougal, Washington and floated in the main stream of the river to the FAZIO brothers’ farm, a distance approximately thirty miles, it would take 14.7 hours. This is assuming that the package did not tumble along the bottom of the river or get caught on any snags.

Mr. BRADLEY stated that numerous streams feed the Columbia downstream from the FAZIO Brothers farm including the Lewis River which would move a small package to the Columbia; however, it is not possible that it  would move upstream to the area the money was located.

Mr. BRADLEY provided a topographical map which includes the above described area.

 

and from the PALMER REPORT:

Professor PALMER displayed a U.S. Geological Survey- Topographical Map, Bridal Veil Washington - Oregon Section, which reflected a twelve mile cross section of the drainage basin for the Washougal River. It is from this area, the Professor felt the money likely originated from.

He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?]

Professor PALMER concluded by saying he had been studying beach sediments since 1951 and his conclusions are based upon his experience in this field since that time.

Professor PALMER furnished a diagram of the beach sediment profile as it was found at Tena Bar. A Xeroxed copy of this profile is attached.

"He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?]"

This  goes with my thoughts in that Cooper likely did not land in water.  I say not likely, but that does not mean impossible. But given that most of the drop zone was land, it is unlikely that he landed in water. 

There were 3 packets of bills found at Tena Bar, $6000 or so.  This is very possibly the same amount of money that was taken out of the bag and handed to Tina, then maybe put back in the bag?? Or into the raincoat, or Tina kept it.

I realize that this money is one of our only clues, but many people in case want to use the $6000 to define what happened to the other $193,000.  My stance is that it is possible that the $6000 was separated from the $193,000 early on in the event and that the $193,000 is still out there buried, or disintegrated, or was spent, etc.

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On 6/6/2022 at 6:30 AM, FLYJACK said:

Clearly and understandably Larry isn't as up to date on the case as we are..

The FBI mandate is to bring a prosecution.. so their goal is inherently "actionable" but this case will never be prosecuted now. 

Larry said.. Soderlind noted ATC Portland stated the plane was East of V23,, not the pilots.. we have previously found that document.. 

"1-2 miles East of the center of this particular flyway".. not in the Washougal basin but within V-23 corridor and consistent with the "FBI" flightpath map .

portlandradar.jpeg.4903945ad0435e15230e6d5ba290b8e4.jpeg

Portland ATC comment...  Larry was referring to. It doesn't put the plane over the Washougal basin.

Edited by FLYJACK
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10 minutes ago, georger said:

I see no reason not to print this - from the BRADLEY REPORT discussing options for money having arrived at Tina Bar:

Mr. BRADLEY advised the only likely river feeding the Columbia River within the above described drop zone that would be capable of moving several bundles of money or a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River would be the Washougal River. A logical time, if the money came down the Washougal, would have been during the December 2, 1977 Washougal flood when parts of the river were approximately ten feet over the normal winter flood stage.

There are several other streams that feed the Columbia River upstream from the FAZIO Brothers’ farm; however, due to size, or the degree of slope of the streams, it is unlikely that a small package would have made it to the Columbia. It is also unlikely that a small package would have passed through Lacamas Lake down stream to the Columbia.

Mr. BRADLEY stated that based on the three feet per second speed of the Columbia River, if a small package entered the Columbia River at Washougal, Washington and floated in the main stream of the river to the FAZIO brothers’ farm, a distance approximately thirty miles, it would take 14.7 hours. This is assuming that the package did not tumble along the bottom of the river or get caught on any snags.

Mr. BRADLEY stated that numerous streams feed the Columbia downstream from the FAZIO Brothers farm including the Lewis River which would move a small package to the Columbia; however, it is not possible that it  would move upstream to the area the money was located.

Mr. BRADLEY provided a topographical map which includes the above described area.

 

and from the PALMER REPORT:

Professor PALMER displayed a U.S. Geological Survey- Topographical Map, Bridal Veil Washington - Oregon Section, which reflected a twelve mile cross section of the drainage basin for the Washougal River. It is from this area, the Professor felt the money likely originated from.

He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?]

Professor PALMER concluded by saying he had been studying beach sediments since 1951 and his conclusions are based upon his experience in this field since that time.

Professor PALMER furnished a diagram of the beach sediment profile as it was found at Tena Bar. A Xeroxed copy of this profile is attached.

 

SO: we have a chain of references to the Washougal starting with some Soderlind comment ... which starts and builds the case for a Washougal Washdown Theory.

Bradley is correct in theory, but he doesn't address the flightpath..  You have to put the plane over the Washougal drainage area..

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10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I think it is the crew transcripts,, I did a word search but didn't find it..

It said something like we had planned a fuel stop in Mazatlan but it turned out to be unnecessary..

I know it is there somewhere. I'll have to find it..

Found this.. if true and Cooper agreed to Sacramento a smaller airport but rejected SF and LA then it wasn't about going over the water and he expected to be on the plane when it landed.

 

321960958_ScreenShot2022-06-07at10_26_49AM.png.4bf170973a38827557f5f260877a8583.png

Here is a potentially dumb question: It seems that having the flaps down caused a few problems for Cooper. Could those have not been changed in the air, as he got closer to jumping? Why have them down the whole time?

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Just now, ParrotheadVol said:

Here is a potentially dumb question: It seems that having the flaps down caused a few problems for Cooper. Could those have not been changed in the air, as he got closer to jumping? Why have them down the whole time?

Great question, I have been wondering if his demands were misinterpreted by Tina in her notes for the pilots...  maybe he wanted the configuration later (Mexico) or when he signalled it..

Maybe she wrote the note in a way that was not what Cooper intended..

We will never know..

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