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DB Cooper

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(edited)
2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

The airstairs piece has been used to indicate Cooper knew a lot about the 727, but this info above seems to discredit that some.  There is mention that he knew where the oxygen bottles were on the plane too.  This to me is not that big of a secret, as I've seen oxygen bottles on planes many times.

Another piece mentioned is that Cooper knew the area because he knew McChord Air Force Base was a 20 minute drive from SEATAC.  But was it really a 20 minute drive? Straight line distance is about 24 miles, so even at 60 MPH it was 24 minutes, but in reality I'm guessing it was more like a 25-35 minute drive.  This is information easily obtained from a map.

Also, it is mentioned that he knew the area because he identified Tacoma from the air.  The only major city on the route from PDX to SEATAC was Tacoma.  The next closest city was 25 miles away (Olympia, much smaller) and there is no reason to think that the plane would circle Olympia (25 miles from the flight path and 25 miles from Tacoma).  Also, Tacoma's population in 1970 was 154,000 to Olympia's 23,000.  It would be hard to confuse Tacoma for Olympia.

How much effort was put in looking for someone from the Northwest who had intimate knowledge of the 727 when it could very well have been some guy from Kansas who had visited the area and studied up on the 727?

I give Cooper a lot of credit for having the guts to pull this off, and to have pulled it off, but I do not put him in the James Bond or Special Operations category.  I still see him as an average guy who got away with a crime.  He may have wanted to be James Bond, but he was not, except for a few hours on that night.

Tacoma ... its part of a series of exchanges that could indicate Cooper was a traveler... or had traveled in WA and MN ... maybe as part of a job ?  Dont forget Cooper also says he's been to MN - nice country.

Cooper also seems familiar with 'airports' - small vs large. He knows the 727 (and other aircraft)? He knows airspace - countries. He knows about Cuba as a hijacking hub. His mention of the right plane in the right place and time indicates he is able to search hijacking options in different places, over time. He may have the habits of a traveler based on the particle list. He asks if its a 727 coming at Portland. He is processing a lot of information from diverse sources in space and time. One stew described him as 'disheveled looking'   - has been traveling? And the list goes on . . . a passenger said his cloths didn;t match?

In today's airport he might stand out as unique with a mission, nervous, alone, and suspicious. That might get him attention he does not want,  and he said he was very concerned there were air marshals on the plane! In today's world he might be spotted and questioned - and detained. Was his bomb armed while standing in the airport at Portland? .......................... he is suspicious in today's world in any airport!

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Another interesting exchange between the pilots and Cooper..

This is the second mention of the airstairs after Cooper was informed of the fuel range problem and they were negotiating a US airport.

Cooper wanted stew to manipulate stairs after plane airborne... then pilots try to tell Cooper how to lower after takeoff (they wanted Tina off the plane).. then pilots suggest to Cooper to let them lower stairs partially for takeoff.. they don't know if they can lock partially down.

That exchange seems to indicate that the pilots were the ones that initially brought up stairs lowered on takeoff when Cooper wanted lowered inflight..

It wasn't clear so the FBI (in the files) discussed asking Tina if the pilots suggested anything to Cooper but there is no answer in the files...

This exchange is not conclusive but it brings up the possibility that airstairs down for takeoff may have actually been instigated by the crew, then Cooper wanted it. 

The crew then had to convince Cooper to takeoff with airstairs up..

 

wantslwraftairborne.jpeg.4ef48a2684dc4aca78cdaa7a237336be.jpeg

and they had mentioned Phoenix just prior to this transmission..  

so this is about the time Cooper rejected the larger US airports for refuelling, he demanded a smaller airport.. before he wanted the airstairs down for takeoff. 

That suggests he still expected to be on the plane when it landed to refuel.. then he changed his mind.

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Chaucer said..

"Regardless, even if he DID want the airstairs deployed in flight, that doesn't indicate he planned on a later jump. His behavior leads one to believe that he wanted off that aircraft as soon as possible."

This is a half truth, first his initial demand was airstairs down inflight. But, his changing his demand based on Reno means he changed his plan. If his plan changed then the LZ wasn't necessarily where he did jump. Plus, there is the other evidence that supports a later planned jump.

Before Reno was in play he rejected US airports for being too large.. He wanted a small airport.. if he was jumping in the PNW it wouldn't matter.  That suggests he was still going to be on the plane.

But after Reno was in play he changed his initial demand and wanted off ASAP. 

For a long time I thought like everyone that he demanded airstairs open on takeoff and that meant he wanted off ASAP but he was delayed slightly by the airstair problem,,,  however, that turns out to be based on a false premise, that was not his initial demand. He changed his plan when Reno was in play and then he wanted off ASAP demanding airstairs down on takeoff.

So, what was his planned LZ.... when he made his initial demand of airstairs lowered inflight, no stopping in US but can refuel in Mexico...

Prior to Reno in play, there is no evidence to support a PNW jump.

 

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The Boeing airstairs report starts p. 333 to p.356 FBI files part 71..

Takeaway,, if I am reading it right.

The airstairs were dropped in two modes at various speeds.. they were "unlatched" with gravity which is done by not pressing the button on the lever and then hydraulic assist by pressing button and moving lever to down position.

(IMO, Cooper initially had trouble because he didn't press the button on the lever)

With gravity "free floating" the drop was 8.6 degrees. (125 knots)

With hydraulic assist the drop was 13.5 degrees. (125 knots)

No excessive pressure was noted. (depressurized cabin) (That confirms the oscillation/bump had to be the stairs retracting not opening)

Slight pitch when stairs dropped. 

Obviously, higher speeds no freefall. 

No unusual control or handling problems should be experienced if the aft airstair should accidentally extend inflight.

 

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Based on all the info we have it sure seems that Cooper was confident the airstairs could be lowered inflight but did not have any experience with them..

He must have read or heard about the 727 airstairs opening inflight...

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(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Based on all the info we have it sure seems that Cooper was confident the airstairs could be lowered inflight but did not have any experience with them..

He must have read or heard about the 727 airstairs opening inflight...

Cooper would have been trapped had the stairs not opened. He banked everything on that. If his bomb was not real then what happens when they land at Reno . . . ? R99 makes a point that Cooper might have been familiar with other versions of the 727 but not commercial 727's? That might explain Cooper asking the cockpit to lower the stairs first. Now he must fabricate a container for the money and his chutes had no D rings! Its one problem after another for Cooper.

I think much is going to depend on Cooper's dna or some other piece of forensic evidence TK or someone else can trace. I think Ulis is useless in this whole matter and may be complicating everything for everyone! People must find a way to work around these social media 'heroic insiders' who claim special knowledge/insight.  

Edited by georger

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(edited)
1 hour ago, georger said:

Cooper would have been trapped had the stairs not opened. He banked everything on that. If his bomb was not real then what happens when they land at Reno . . . ? R99 makes a point that Cooper might have been familiar with other versions of the 727 but not commercial 727's? That might explain Cooper asking the cockpit to lower the stairs first. Now he must fabricate a container for the money and his chutes had no D rings! Its one problem after another for Cooper.

I think much is going to depend on Cooper's dna or some other piece of forensic evidence TK or someone else can trace. I think Ulis is useless in this whole matter and may be complicating everything for everyone! People must find a way to work around these social media 'heroic insiders' who claim special knowledge/insight.  

Yes, he must have been fully confident that the airstairs could open inflight.

Other versions of the 727,,, there was a single prototype military sub hunting version that was never in production and 5 C-22's which were in the National Guard but don't know if the airstairs were operated differently, can't find that info.

IMO, Cooper had military aviation experience but not any directly with the 727.. he may have heard about a 727 drop operation in SE Asia or have been indirectly involved.

To get this thing solved 100% the only way is to obtain new DNA from the tie and match it to a suspect but that may not be possible due to the FBI or degradation/contamination of the tie.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Based on all the info we have it sure seems that Cooper was confident the airstairs could be lowered inflight but did not have any experience with them..

He must have read or heard about the 727 airstairs opening inflight...

The Boeing tests were apparently flown in March 1964 with the test aircraft (N72700) in the "production configuration". 

The British publication "Flight" mentioned that such tests had been conducted in one of its summer 1964 issues.  USA publications undoubtedly mentioned the same information in the same time frame.

I was working on something then that caused me to be especially interested in the 727 wing, which was quite innovative, and I read everything I could find on the 727 but don't remember seeing anything about the aft stairs which would not be of particular interest to me anyway.  

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(edited)
2 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

Our latest episode is out now!

 

DB Cooper Was a Case I Wanted to Solve with Larry Carr.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-case-i-wanted-to-solve-larry-carr/ 

Great episode.. will be a classic..

I wanted to interrupt so many times..

Cigarette butts were destroyed not lost per FBI file.

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight. Later changed.

Dan Cooper comic was published in Mexico in Spanish for Latin America...

Bonus points for rejecting Ulis's western flight path.

and the chutes,, what about the two backpack cards, one was the chute Cooper used... plus Cossey's serial lying, the FBI was looking for the wrong chute.

Larry said they were going to go out over the water even going to Reno,,, remember Cooper rejected SF and LA because they were large airports, why if he was jumping in PNW..

Interesting that the tie is considered useless now,, that is the only way to get a 100% solve..

Larry will get a big surprise when my research comes out... 

 

I don't do facebook, Larry should post here, the crazy people are gone.

Edited by FLYJACK
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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Great episode.. will be a classic..

I wanted to interrupt so many times..

Cigarette butts were destroyed not lost per FBI file.

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight. Later changed.

Dan Cooper comic was published in Mexico in Spanish for Latin America...

Bonus points for rejecting Ulis's western flight path.

and the chutes,, what about the two backpack cards, one was the chute Cooper used... plus Cossey's serial lying, the FBI was looking for the wrong chute.

Larry said they were going to go out over the water even going to Reno,,, remember Cooper rejected SF and LA because they were large airports, why if he was jumping in PNW..

Interesting that the tie is considered useless now,, that is the only way to get a 100% solve..

Larry will get a big surprise when my research comes out... 

 

I don't do facebook, Larry should post here, the crazy people are gone.

wow! This could be crucial... I dearly hope you do publish your research and Ckret reads it and responds. This is all timely. ............... has great potential! 

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(edited)
5 hours ago, georger said:

wow! This could be crucial... I dearly hope you do publish your research and Ckret reads it and responds. This is all timely. ............... has great potential! 

Listened to Schaefer's interview of Larry Car. Thought it was a good interview and more in depth than expected. I wish Carr would come here for questions but assume he will only go with his friend Eric Ulis at Ulis' private Facebook Group. Ulis of course does not allow people he does not like to participate in that group! That is a mistake on Carr's part for many-many reasons! Let me get to specifics:

1. Nothing on paper vs rubber bands on the money. I hope Carr would finally clear that up but I guess not ....

2. To me Carr represents a clear middle ground on the Cooper case. He stressed only 'actionable' information. Again I see this as part of his middle ground practical approach. Which  I agree with ... my bias.

3. Darren mentioned Tom's diatom work - obviously Carr didnt know much about it. But Carr stresses he believes in a Washougal Washdown option, which I had never heard him emphasize before. He mentioned an early FBI interview with one of the pilots saying they were east of V23 when the bump happened, which is interesting. This may be where Himmelsbach got his strong belief (with Jerry Thomas) in the Washougal theory. I had no idea Carr subscribes to it too. Carr's  new report on this may stir a new search for bones in the Washougal? Then several things clicked for me, I had never connected Spring floods in the Washougal with Tom finding "spring time diatoms on the money:.  Is there a connection? Maybe Himmelsbach was on to something after all ? Maybe new work for TK ... new dots to try and connect? Interesting side note to Carr's interview I had never considered before.   

4. DNA. Cigarette butts and hair sample gone. 'Tie offers too many dna options' - too many people handled it ?  That's a new on on me. Carr leaves the impression that he really doesn't know too much about dna or genetic science. I urged Carr at Dropzone (2008?) to not give up on dna science. He evidently did not take it or me seriously! Carr needs to sit down with a good dna forensic expert and have a conversation, to explain Carr what options are actually left in 2022 - a topic Eric Ulis knows zilch about! A topic Tom Kaye may not be fully current on! Carr could find somebody in private industry  who could summarize the options still available to the FBI for genetic testing of the tie - or Carr could ask an expert at Quantico. Experts in both places switch back and forth regularly as employment opportunities change! Its obvious to me Carr never thought dna was important or timely. Maybe the issue needs to be updated and addressed again, seriously. It is rumored Kaye has two dna samples from the tie left that were never tested? What happened to those? Or should we just let this whole issue slide through the cracks again like the cigarette butts and hair sample did? You only get so many chances in Life to correct past mistakes!

Good interview. Thought provoking.

 

1973 base.png

Edited by georger
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(edited)

Clearly and understandably Larry isn't as up to date on the case as we are..

The FBI mandate is to bring a prosecution.. so their goal is inherently "actionable" but this case will never be prosecuted now. 

Larry said.. Soderlind noted ATC Portland stated the plane was East of V23,, not the pilots.. we have previously found that document.. 

"1-2 miles East of the center of this particular flyway".. not in the Washougal basin but within V-23 corridor and consistent with the "FBI" flightpath map .

portlandradar.jpeg.4903945ad0435e15230e6d5ba290b8e4.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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The latest 302's are decent.  Not a whole lot of new info. A good amount on the air stairs test if people are interested.  Some info on Early Cossey.  Here are my takeaways.

Composite B is the sketch to be using.  Frankly if someone is using Composite A, it is to make their suspect fit.

It sounds like the SR-71 did make a flight but did not take pictures..

The sketch was expensive to re-produce and may not have made it out to all the magazines and newspapers as often as the government would have liked.

The FBI did search a lot of the area, to include the new search area (I'm guessing closer to Orchards).  They made an effort to engage hunters to look in their hunting areas.  My observation on this is that it is just one more reminder that no body was found, no nothing.  So many things need to fall into place for Cooper to have died in that jump. I just don't see it.

I listened to Darren's podcast and the Facebook Live with Larry Carr.  I'm looking forward to hearing more about the case from Larry.  He is still focused on Cooper dying.  That just does not make sense to me.

He did talk about how the money would not have been found in circulation.  

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(edited)
1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

The latest 302's are decent.  Not a whole lot of new info. A good amount on the air stairs test if people are interested.  Some info on Early Cossey.  Here are my takeaways.

Composite B is the sketch to be using.  Frankly if someone is using Composite A, it is to make their suspect fit.

It sounds like the SR-71 did make a flight but did not take pictures..

The sketch was expensive to re-produce and may not have made it out to all the magazines and newspapers as often as the government would have liked.

The FBI did search a lot of the area, to include the new search area (I'm guessing closer to Orchards).  They made an effort to engage hunters to look in their hunting areas.  My observation on this is that it is just one more reminder that no body was found, no nothing.  So many things need to fall into place for Cooper to have died in that jump. I just don't see it.

I listened to Darren's podcast and the Facebook Live with Larry Carr.  I'm looking forward to hearing more about the case from Larry.  He is still focused on Cooper dying.  That just does not make sense to me.

He did talk about how the money would not have been found in circulation.  

Larry makes a common error, he assumes the only time a bill is potentially checked is when it is initially spent.. the bills were entered into NCIC and circulate for years until potential destruction.. there are many points in its lifecycle that a bill can be caught. If there were almost 9700 bills in circulation for years one would have turned up somewhere.. I agree with the numismatist on this.. Cooper, lost the money, hid the money or took it out of the country..

 

This is interesting,, one theory I have is that Cooper lost the money and it was found by somebody who didn't turn it in but couldn't spend it..

 

484804206_ScreenShot2022-06-04at4_29_52PM.png.451faa0638da49954e9b1f940c601775.png

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Larry makes a common error, he assumes the only time a bill is potentially checked is when it is initially spent.. the bills were entered into NCIC and circulate for years until potential destruction.. there are many points in its lifecycle that a bill can be caught. If there were almost 9700 bills in circulation for years one would have turned up somewhere.. I agree with the numismatist on this.. Cooper, lost the money, hid the money or took it out of the country..

 

This is interesting,, one theory I have is that Cooper lost the money and it was found by somebody who didn't turn it in but couldn't spend it..

 

484804206_ScreenShot2022-06-04at4_29_52PM.png.451faa0638da49954e9b1f940c601775.png

I have yet to see any information about a systematic way to check bills or that they were even doing it.  The NCIC has been around for over 50 years.  There would have to be a situation where someone took an actual bill, then ran it through the NCIC.  I could see something in the late 90s or 2000's being more automatic using computers are a program to recognize serial numbers, but it still seems very manual.  By the 90s most of these bills would be out of circulation.  If they were spent overseas, at some point some of those would end up back in the states too.

I just find it very hard to fathom that someone would have this money and not spend some of it.   Some kid finding the money actually makes sense.  Like most things in this case, there are a range of odds/probability.  

Money washes out to sea?  Possible.  Low chance. 

Money is still out there? Possible.  Very low chance.

Cooper got away with the money? Possible, higher chance.

Someone found the money: Possible, higher chance.

If one believes that the money left the area by hand (Cooper, some kid), then we have a very cool character who does not spend any of it.  If it were me, I might spend a little of it to enhance my life.  Eating out, gas, gifts, whatever.  Little things.  If you're a blue collar worker making $5 an hour in 1971, a few extra $20s can go a long way.

 

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(edited)
12 hours ago, georger said:

Listened to Schaefer's interview of Larry Car. Thought it was a good interview and more in depth than expected. I wish Carr would come here for questions but assume he will only go with his friend Eric Ulis at Ulis' private Facebook Group. Ulis of course does not allow people he does not like to participate in that group! That is a mistake on Carr's part for many-many reasons! Let me get to specifics:

1. Nothing on paper vs rubber bands on the money. I hope Carr would finally clear that up but I guess not ....

2. To me Carr represents a clear middle ground on the Cooper case. He stressed only 'actionable' information. Again I see this as part of his middle ground practical approach. Which  I agree with ... my bias.

3. Darren mentioned Tom's diatom work - obviously Carr didnt know much about it. But Carr stresses he believes in a Washougal Washdown option, which I had never heard him emphasize before. He mentioned an early FBI interview with one of the pilots saying they were east of V23 when the bump happened, which is interesting. This may be where Himmelsbach got his strong belief (with Jerry Thomas) in the Washougal theory. I had no idea Carr subscribes to it too. Carr's  new report on this may stir a new search for bones in the Washougal? Then several things clicked for me, I had never connected Spring floods in the Washougal with Tom finding "spring time diatoms on the money:.  Is there a connection? Maybe Himmelsbach was on to something after all ? Maybe new work for TK ... new dots to try and connect? Interesting side note to Carr's interview I had never considered before.   

4. DNA. Cigarette butts and hair sample gone. 'Tie offers too many dna options' - too many people handled it ?  That's a new on on me. Carr leaves the impression that he really doesn't know too much about dna or genetic science. I urged Carr at Dropzone (2008?) to not give up on dna science. He evidently did not take it or me seriously! Carr needs to sit down with a good dna forensic expert and have a conversation, to explain Carr what options are actually left in 2022 - a topic Eric Ulis knows zilch about! A topic Tom Kaye may not be fully current on! Carr could find somebody in private industry  who could summarize the options still available to the FBI for genetic testing of the tie - or Carr could ask an expert at Quantico. Experts in both places switch back and forth regularly as employment opportunities change! Its obvious to me Carr never thought dna was important or timely. Maybe the issue needs to be updated and addressed again, seriously. It is rumored Kaye has two dna samples from the tie left that were never tested? What happened to those? Or should we just let this whole issue slide through the cracks again like the cigarette butts and hair sample did? You only get so many chances in Life to correct past mistakes!

Good interview. Thought provoking.

 

1973 base.png

NEW:  "Silver nitrate imparts different functions on bacteria depending upon its concentration. At lower concentration it induced synthesis of nanoparticles, whereas at higher concentrations it induced cell death."  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768641/

As per Carr, if the tie was treated with silver nitrate as was some of the money, looking for finger prints, very likely that killed or altered any dna on the tie... silver nitrate is toxic to dna molecules. Its interesting to me that the one dna sample the FBI claims to have was sensitive enough to show multiple donors but only partials? This tie seems to be the one piece of Cooper evidence left in spite of defects it may have as a forensic tool ?

MONEY IN WASHOUGAL ?  Tom Kaye looked at three bills for any sign of contact with Washougal geology and found nothing. The FBI Lab did something similar and reported only sands/particles related to Columbia region river water - see Palmer report.

 

 

Edited by georger

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So that was a fascinating interview with Larry Carr... very interesting to hear his opinions on everything. The implications of what he said about the tie are disappointing but I suppose not wholly surprising. Anyone look into the composition of fingerprint powders yet that the FBI may have used on the tie back then?

That being said, I pretty much agree with him on everything except Cooper dying! But I can see why that's a reasonable conclusion to make when nothing else ever went anywhere... I wasn't someone personally investigating the case after all.

A little surprised he wasn't familiar with the Egg Harbor/Shelton suspects... but I suspect they probably aren't referred to as that in the Bureau, though. It would be interesting to ask him about the relative files and what he thinks of them/if there were any later developments with them. Seems like they confidently closed the book on McCoy who was in the same report from 2004 (FBI files part 52, page 189+), so I wonder if it's also the case with those two and we just don't have the relevant documents yet.

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9 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

So that was a fascinating interview with Larry Carr... very interesting to hear his opinions on everything. The implications of what he said about the tie are disappointing but I suppose not wholly surprising. Anyone look into the composition of fingerprint powders yet that the FBI may have used on the tie back then?

That being said, I pretty much agree with him on everything except Cooper dying! But I can see why that's a reasonable conclusion to make when nothing else ever went anywhere... I wasn't someone personally investigating the case after all.

A little surprised he wasn't familiar with the Egg Harbor/Shelton suspects... but I suspect they probably aren't referred to as that in the Bureau, though. It would be interesting to ask him about the relative files and what he thinks of them/if there were any later developments with them. Seems like they confidently closed the book on McCoy who was in the same report from 2004 (FBI files part 52, page 189+), so I wonder if it's also the case with those two and we just don't have the relevant documents yet.

When Carr says the FBI "did everything in its power" to find DB Cooper, he likewise admits the FBI failed to take care of its "evidence"! That is a little bit like a mother saying after the fact: "I did everything in my power to protect my baby, except I forgot to turn off the bathtub water." ! Fact: Carr is not a forensically trained agent. Science is not his strong suit or his first inclination - pounding the streets and interviewing is. He said this over and over multiple times. He says as an afterthought, the FBI screwed up and mishandled the Cooper evidence. Just as he may be screwing up the evidence and the opportunities for hard forensic evidence - today. Tom Kaye is not a large lab! Eric Ulis is not a forensic expert of any kind! But Darren did a good job of keeping 'evidence' in the interview, and he kept returning to it. I doubt Kaye or Carr will come here to answer any questions or have dialogue. He would go to Shutter's site first. Still Carr is to be congratulated for opening the Cooper case up to the public at all.

Carr brought up the '76 Conference. Where do we go from here. Nobody apparently recommended falling back on better forensics ....... to develop leads! In spite of the fact there have always been supremely competent forensic people at Quantico who could have made recommendations - they were not included in the conversation. And except for Tom Kaye today, forensics is still playing a minor role today. When are these people ever going to learn! ?  

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Incoming slight diversion, but I think found evidence of a third body found in/near the dropzone during the search in the latest 302's... a 16 year old male named James Annis (page 103), identified via dental records. The others from what I've gathered were a 20-something male with no teeth available for identification and a young girl discovered under different circumstances, so all three were presumably different people.

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