25 25
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Flyjack. You did some research on the matchbooks a while back. Did you look into ICS International Correspondence School located in Scranton, PA?

Yes, didn't really pan out though. That matchbook could have been picked up almost anywhere. It was a correspondence "school".. and the matchbook was just a marketing item.

s-l1600.thumb.jpg.9f4e412354f881fb3a51f491cd915d9e.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

I'll chime is on the Rem-Cru stuff...

First, it is interesting and worth pursuing.. I would pursue it too, but Eric is elevating an assumption as fact as he always does.

 

Rem-Cru patent 1953

The patent has lots of alloyed combinations and % ranges.. connecting it to the few particles of 100,000 + on Coopers tie is not clear but an extremely vague and unproven assumption. 

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/2796347.html

How many have actually read the patent.. there is no way you can claim as fact that those particles came from Rem-Cru..

 

The claim that the very few Ti/Antimony particles on the tie are actually from Rem-Cru due to a 1953 patent (about 12 years before the tie existed) is a real stretch. Those particles may have nothing to with Rem-Cru.

Tom Kaye didn’t agree, he thought it was pure Titanium plated with antimony.. I don't know about that but there are many other sources of Ti/Antimony that may or may not be patented.

For example..

capacitor with titanium and antimony..

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3564348.html

 

The particles are like a Rorschach test, you can find almost anything you want in them... 

For Rem-Cru and that patent, I don't see any proof the tie particles came from their lab. 

However, it is worth looking into.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Anyone see that post by the profiler on the D. B. Cooper forum today? Who he describes sounds very eerily similar to Max Gunther's Dan LeClair. I'm almost tempted to think he lifted it straight out of the book, haha. Intriguing stuff.

No kidding.

I wonder if he/she is a professional profiler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Anyone see that post by the profiler on the D. B. Cooper forum today? Who he describes sounds very eerily similar to Max Gunther's Dan LeClair. I'm almost tempted to think he lifted it straight out of the book, haha. Intriguing stuff.

Some of it does not fit with Gunther's character, or at least Gunther did not mention it (seminary, bomb being his "voice", etc.).  Here are some things from this profile that do sync up with Gunther's character (from my perspective)

He had issues standing/speaking up for himself growing up and thus he's always compromising when faced with confrontations.

He has void within himself where he feels unremarkable so he does what he feels are remarkable things to try and fill that void. (speculation that there is a void and that he is trying to fill that void. This is more clinical than Gunther was)

Attention seeker and the resulting attention is self satisfying enough for him even if he isn't personally acknowledged. (I don't see him as an attention seeker, but the rest is accurate)

Doesn't have to announce afterwards,  look it's me-----look it's me.

Parachuting experience, both day and night times and in inclement weather.

The event began as a simple fantasy. He probably never thought it would ever become reality. Fantasized in stages so he would have doodled stuff on paper. Possibly in his own covert language.

The money was not his primary focus in his fantasy. It was initially all about the plane and the jump.

Somewhat recent stressor point in his life caused it to go from fantasy to reality. Examples: Separation, Divorce, Job loss.

 

The more I read it, the more I think that the original poster has read Gunther's book.  Simply put, very few people have come up with this "profile" outside of those who are into Gunther's book.  Certainly very few of the suspects fit this mold.  William Smith checks a lot of these blocks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Ulis is way overplaying the "Commercial DNA" profile.. no way you can link a particle to a single source.

 

First, the particles are not necessarily alloys..

I checked the patent and it does not match the particles he claimed. The patent gives a wide range for the percentage of Antimony with Titanium, it mentions generally Ni and Si with many other additives.. but does not give the combination or percentages to match the tie particles. It is not a "Commercial DNA" profile.. makes for a great narrative though.. it is close to the three particles within the range for the Antimony % but the patent is not evidence that the particles came from Rem-Cru, not even close. That Antimony % range is not exclusive to this patent. The full tie particle combination is not even mentioned. Tie particles may not even be an alloy. The particles don't match each other, one has Al instead of Si.. 

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d5/32/82/c2282c074fccdc/US2796347.pdf

Is it worth pursuing, sure.. is Eric exaggerating and hyperbolic, sure. Interesting and clever angle but a real long shot guys..

 

794745042_Mccrone674-1163.png.ea946d70b213f62c9546e525930344e3.png

1030933337_Mcrone675-14370.png.3aaa42f355df2d9360dff597f0628593.png

1001287455_Mccrone675-24361.png.5e16457cc7c70a591452713768e3bc12.png

He played the same game with the Placard,, He claimed as FACT the Placard came from flight 305, he claimed the wind speed/direction was a FACT, combined those two and claimed it proved his Western flightpath theory...  but the Placard didn't come from inside 305 and it could have fallen off any 727 and the wind was an estimate at the LZ,, unknown at the Placard location. Classic Ulis..

 

The particles have so many element combinations and percentages that you can find anything in there that fits what you want..

The Barium Sulfate particles on the tie have sightly different minor ingredients and percentages vary a bit.. there is no real uniformity. You would expect uniformity if they were from the same source.. unless the testing isn't as accurate as we think..

Barium Sulfate is unique as it was primarily used as a contrast for digestive/internal X-Rays.. also in paints... Cosmetics..

So, how do all these slightly different "rare" particles get on the tie... 

Did Cooper go for an X-Ray?? Barium Sulfate is a pill/powder/drink...

Paint particles,, many particles do match pigments... 

Cosmetics,,, Witnesses said no disguise... Mitchell said hair looked odd as if dyed..  hair dye?

 

Some things we need to consider..

The tie had about 7 years to collect particles..

Some of the particles may have been from the production process of the Dacron Polyester material, the dying process and fire retardant.. 

Some of the particles may have been picked up in the plane. Must be lots of particle residue in the plane..

Some of the particles may have been post hijacking,, FBI testing and handling or long term storage.

Also, the tie may not have been owned by Cooper...  but he left it on the plane.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This 1969 filed patent matches the TISB particles better than the Rem Cru patent..

70-90% Titanium with Antimony electrodes in a capacitor.. 

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3564348.html

 

Doesn't mean Cooper worked at SPRAGUE ELECTRIC CO. 

Sprague Capacitors were used everywhere...

Having mustard on your tie doesn't mean you worked in a mustard factory.

So, a TISB particle in about 85/15 is not unique to Rem-Cru from 1965-1971.

 

There are many sources for TISB particles, alloyed or not.

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This 1969 filed patent matches the TISB particles better than the Rem Cru patent..

70-90% Titanium with Antimony electrodes in a capacitor.. 

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3564348.html

 

Doesn't mean Cooper worked at SPRAGUE ELECTRIC CO. 

Sprague Capacitors were used everywhere...

Having mustard on your tie doesn't mean you worked in a mustard factory.

So, a TISB particle in about 85/15 is not unique to Rem-Cru from 1965-1971.

 

There are many sources for TISB particles, alloyed or not.

 

 

 

Looking at the EDS composition spreadsheet, there are a lot of particles that suggest specialty alloys work. I still think it's plausible that Cooper (or whomever wore the tie originally) worked in metals R&D. This suggests the TiSb is more likely then not an alloy. I’ve posted a current progress report of my findings on the history of this TiSb alloy over at shutters site the DBC forum. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
37 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Looking at the EDS composition spreadsheet, there are a lot of particles that suggest specialty alloys work. I still think it's plausible that Cooper (or whomever wore the tie originally) worked in metals R&D. This suggests the TiSb is more likely then not an alloy. I’ve posted a current progress report of my findings on the history of this TiSb alloy over at shutters site the DBC forum. 

I think it is worth pursuing,, the problem is Ulis's exaggerated statements.....

Because of the wide variety of particle compositions, I tend to think the tie was not exposed at the primary manufacturing stage but at the downstream usage/assembly where there would be a much wider particle exposure from many sources.

Generally, the closer to the primary manufacture stage, the narrower the range of particles.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

This 1969 filed patent matches the TISB particles better than the Rem Cru patent..

70-90% Titanium with Antimony electrodes in a capacitor.. 

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3564348.html

 

Doesn't mean Cooper worked at SPRAGUE ELECTRIC CO. 

Sprague Capacitors were used everywhere...

Having mustard on your tie doesn't mean you worked in a mustard factory.

So, a TISB particle in about 85/15 is not unique to Rem-Cru from 1965-1971.

 

There are many sources for TISB particles, alloyed or not.

 

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmm. So now its a capacitor and not an alloy per se. Does this come from .... whom? Tom Kaye or Marcel Grossman. The alloy idea could have come from a quick element list vs actual SEM observation of the item ? Has anyone actually looked at the thing to see if it is a capacitor (an electronic part) vs. something else? Who has this particle evidence - Kaye or Ulis or some production company ?    Why all the confusion/claims about this ! ?  Anyone got a photo of this UFO ?

Edited by georger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I think it is worth pursuing,, the problem is Ulis's exaggerated statements.....

Ulis is irrelevant!   WHO HAS THE PARTICLE?  If this is an electronic part (manufactured) vs an inert piece of metal(s) that should be obvious ..........  why is Kaye dragging his feet on this! ?  Why all the drama about this!

Edited by georger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, georger said:

Ulis is irrelevant!   WHO HAS THE PARTICLE?  If this is an electronic part (manufactured) vs an inert piece of metal(s) that should be obvious ..........  why is Kaye dragging his feet on this! ?  Why all the drama about this!

I am not alleging it is a particle from an electrode in a capacitor.. 

Just pointing out that there are other sources that match the TiSb ratio,, there are probably many more..

Mccrone#674-1163.png

Mccrone#675-24361.png

Mcrone#675-14370.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Tim Commer on the Facebook group notice some TiPd alloy on the tie today and it got me looking into that particular particle. There is a good amount on the EDS. I included the main stubs containing the TiPd below and a link to a book Book by Jaffee and Ogden (2 of the 3 Rem-Cru patent inventors) for the TiSb that talks a little about Titanium-Palladium compounds. Another arrow pointing towards Jaffe and his crew at Battelles titanium metals research lab in Columbus OH. 
 

https://books.google.com/books?id=wZM7cTVK_-kC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

2EAF8CEC-83E6-4109-81D1-C2C8F6B16D4B.png

281A1FED-2D70-4FBB-807D-BB743895AFF7.png

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Tim Commer on the Facebook group notice some TiPd alloy on the tie today and it got me looking into that particular particle. There is a good amount on the EDS. I included the main stubs containing the TiPd below and a link to a book Book by Jaffee and Ogden (2 of the 3 Rem-Cru patent inventors) for the TiSb that talks a little about Titanium-Palladium compounds. Another arrow pointing towards Jaffe and his crew at Battelles titanium metals research lab in Columbus OH. 
 

https://books.google.com/books?id=wZM7cTVK_-kC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

2EAF8CEC-83E6-4109-81D1-C2C8F6B16D4B.png

281A1FED-2D70-4FBB-807D-BB743895AFF7.png

TiPd compounds were common in the 60's.. electronics to dentistry to aircraft

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

The 100% pure Antimony caught my attention..

"Pure antimony compounds are used as abrasives, pigments, flameproofing compounds, plasticizers, and catalysts in organic synthesis; they are also used in the manufacture of tartar emetic, paints, lacquers, glass, pottery, enamels, glazes, pharma­ceuticals, pyrotechnics, matches, explosives. In addition they are used in dyeing, for blueing steel, and in coloring aluminum, pewter, and zinc."

tartar emetic.. (the dying process for the tie) used as paint pigments, and tartar emetic (an organic salt of antimony) is used in the textile industry to aid in binding certain dyes to fabrics and in medicine as an expectorant and a nauseant.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

25 25