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DB Cooper

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27 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So, if someone were just making this story up, is there an obvious reason why they would include this? I mean, this was before anything was known about the elements on the tie, right? So why include this if it isn't true?

Good point.  It's not like the FBI was going to find a suit hanging in his closet and that be the smoking gun, unless it was some outlandish looking suit.  I read it as the character in the book was not a guy who wore suits or even owned a suit, therefore he had to buy one at a second hand shop.  Definitely fits with DB Cooper.

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Of all the things Clara or Gunther may have changed even if they didn't make the whole thing up wouldn't the names (Paul Cotton/ Dan LeClair) be the most likely?

From my recollection of the book I think LeClair wore clothing underneath the suit so buying a second hand one would have made sense and also explained the suit looking dated. I've also wondered whether buying a suit from a thrift store would have made sense in any case even if he had old suits he didn't mind losing. Far harder to trace the background of a suit bought that way.

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What are the pros and cons of the Tina Bar money getting there from dredging?  From what I remember there was commentary that no in tact bills could make it through a dredger. But do we know what type of equipment was used? I seem to remember someone saying that they’ve seen lots of junk come out of that process. For those who believe the dredging theory, why haven’t you dug in areas where other dredge spoils have been deposited? Would you if you could? 

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51 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What are the pros and cons of the Tina Bar money getting there from dredging?  From what I remember there was commentary that no in tact bills could make it through a dredger. But do we know what type of equipment was used? I seem to remember someone saying that they’ve seen lots of junk come out of that process. For those who believe the dredging theory, why haven’t you dug in areas where other dredge spoils have been deposited? Would you if you could? 

good questions. every agent Ive talked to that was part of the `1980 excavation believes the money was placed on TBar by the dredging .... every single person. I think this is a case of people being told what to think and say vs what people actually thought. Bundles of bills cannot swim or float! They can only fall from the sky (gravity), be moved by current (water flows down hill or can be piped under pressure), be conveyed and perhaps buried by someone or something. Those are the options.

Edited by georger

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58 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What are the pros and cons of the Tina Bar money getting there from dredging?  From what I remember there was commentary that no in tact bills could make it through a dredger. But do we know what type of equipment was used? I seem to remember someone saying that they’ve seen lots of junk come out of that process. For those who believe the dredging theory, why haven’t you dug in areas where other dredge spoils have been deposited? Would you if you could? 

I am not a fan of the suction dredge theory per se, 

- I can't see the money going through and ending up in that condition. Extremely unlikely.

- The diatoms mean the money was in the water spring/summer only, that leaves a narrow band of time for entry into the water and then dredged onto shore. 

 

I have read accounts that TBAR was replenished constantly,, not just 1974 from channel operations.

The TBAR shoreline right at the money spot looks to have been replenished before the famous 1974 dredge operation and after Sept 71.. 

Remember, the 74 dredge operation shows South of the money spot, this is exactly at the money spot.

September 1971 on the left and Jul 1973 on the right. The water looks the same..

What does this mean.. it appears that between September 1971 and July 1973 there was beach replenishment on TBAR right at the money find spot. The 1974 dredge operation was south of this spot, there is speculation is was spread out but who knows. The dredging records don't indicate any channel dredge operation during this time but there may have been beach replenishment and reports are that it was frequent.

It is possible the 1974 dredge operation had nothing to do with the TBAR money and an earlier beach replenishment (Sept 71 - Jul 73) operation occurred prior to the money arrival. The layer found by Palmer under the money was this one not the 1974 one..

Another possible theory (of many) I have is that the money went down the South Fork Lewis during historic floods in 1972 and was clamshell dredged from the Columbia barged upstream and used for beach nourishment. Not my favourite theory..

But I do believe the 1974 channel dredge operation is a red herring.

Sept 71 and July 73

tbarreplanish.jpg.523dfad7f96cd0743aa3a71dccc26696.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK
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On 2/16/2022 at 10:56 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

Good point.  It's not like the FBI was going to find a suit hanging in his closet and that be the smoking gun, unless it was some outlandish looking suit.  I read it as the character in the book was not a guy who wore suits or even owned a suit, therefore he had to buy one at a second hand shop.  Definitely fits with DB Cooper.

So, my take on the Gunther book is that somebody contacted him claiming to be Cooper, the letters are legit. Gunther researched the case and wrote about it in the hijacking description but embellished some.. The Clara part was mostly fiction between "Clara" and Max there is no way to extract the truth.. Gunther writing style is novel form of creative writing making impossible to sort this out..

Either the real Cooper or a hoaxer..

It looks like  both the first '72 letter and the '82 letter to Himmelsbach were typed by the same person based on formatting though different typewriters, both appear to be male based on language. That letter to Himmelsbach was probably legit because Himmelsbach could deny he ever received it when Gunther published his book. Either Gunther faked it and sent it to H or "Cooper/Hoaxer" did.. that is risky for Gunther so unlikely he did. Therefore Cooper/Hoaxer likely sent that letter to H and probably a male, not Clara.

That letter was a pleading to H to accept the story and give credibility. "Cooper/Hoaxer" tried to convey inside info. He mentioned the name "Dan", it was in the newspapers but not widely used. He mentioned that Cooper did not wear loafers, ONLY newspapers reported that he did, he didn't. He is trying to communicate to H that he knew some inside info. He also claimed to be Clara so the info was not 100% reliable.

Another interesting point is that "Cooper/Hoaxer" initially wanted money for a charity then later stated that was a ruse and he did want money. At this point "Cooper/Hoaxer" wanted money, if the real Cooper then it indicates he lost the ransom during the hijacking.. Then Clara never wanted money but wanted to tell a story and claim Cooper was dead.. if the real Cooper with a female accomplice they wanted it public that Cooper was dead, Hahneman was about to get out of prison.

There are few really interesting Hahneman coincidences..

One big one is that Mark Penzer told Gunther he was asked by the "Cooper/Hoaxer" to go to the Pan AM building NY at 1:00 PM to a phone booth with a specific telephone number, he went and it was there. He never got a call, but thought Cooper was watching him. So, the "Cooper/Hoaxer" must have known NY very well unless Gunther made up that part.

The Pan Am building is half a mile from where Hahneman was staying at the time.. Gunther also stated the Clara calls were coming from NY in '82 at the time Hahneman was in prison. Hahneman had a sister but I haven't been able to track her location.

He gave me a name let's say Paul Cotton or something like that.. Clara recalls..

So, the name may have been completely fabricated, however, Hahenman worked for NASA and Tom Cotton was a director for NASA at the time. There are other things but all could be just coincidences.

My conclusion, somebody contacted Gunther, could have been Cooper or a hoaxer.. Gunther embellished and fabricated much of it..  it is an interesting hypothesis, I don't know how it can be resolved.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Now that Ckret has come back to the Cooper case .... what can a mere mortal do ?  Sit back and wait. Wait for the news bytes trucks and and massive file carriers to move on their pontoons. Discovery and other Producers will definitely be involved!  The countdown to invasion has begun.

I cannot help but compare Cooper Olympics to the real Olympics, where uncountable athletes participate and try, each duly sanctioned after years of blood, sweat, and tears, then certifications, but only a few make it through and get medals in the zillions competing. Ckret has medals to give! Ckret has read Bruce's book and the street talk is Ckret has granted Bruce Smith a personal interview. The Formans are somewhere in the background, perhaps still hoping patiently. Innocence is an asset in competitions that could bestow a whole life-changing Kingdom on mere mortals.

The rest of the World must wait and see. Here is a short-list of a  few prior competitors who competed with everything they had but never got medals or recognition, in the search for DB Cooper cash: you probably have never heard their names before! It's an honor role of the faithful:

Sid Macken – “Black Water”. History of diving Columbia, Historical Diving Soc., Santa Barbara CA

John Glen – found parachute back in 1972 on Mt Hood ?  was judged not Cooper’s.

M. Carpa Salvage.  Coosebay ?

Glenn Rassmussen salvage.

Lars Larson. talk radio … KXLFM101.

Adel Ferguson AP/UPI

State Senator, Slade Gorton

& others ....

 

Edited by georger

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26 minutes ago, georger said:

Now that Ckret has come back to the Cooper case .... what can a mere mortal do ?  Sit back and wait. Wait for the news bytes trucks and and massive file carriers to move on their pontoons. Discovery and other Producers will definitely be involved!  The countdown to invasion has begun.

I cannot help but compare Cooper Olympics to the real Olympics, where uncountable athletes participate and try, each duly sanctioned after years of blood, sweat, and tears, then certifications, but only a few make it through and get medals in the zillions competing. Ckret has medals to give! Ckret has read Bruce's book and the street talk is Ckret has granted Bruce Smith a personal interview. The Formans are somewhere in the background, perhaps still hoping patiently. Innocence is an asset in competitions that could bestow a whole life-changing Kingdom on mere mortals.

The rest of the World must wait and see. Here is a short-list of a  few prior competitors who competed with everything they had but never got medals or recognition, in the search for DB Cooper cash: you probably have never heard their names before! It's an honor role of the faithful:

Sid Macken – “Black Water”. History of diving Columbia, Historical Diving Soc., Santa Barbara CA

John Glen – found parachute back in 1972 on Mt Hood ?  was judged not Cooper’s.

M. Carpa Salvage.  Coosebay ?

Glenn Rassmussen salvage.

Lars Larson. talk radio … KXLFM101.

& others ....

 

What can Carr really tell us? It’s not like the day he retires he can all of a sudden release all this top secret information. I think his observations are important and will hopefully bring more publicity to the case. Who knows. Maybe he will retire and want to start a new career and have nothing to do with law enforcement and Cooper. 

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17 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What can Carr really tell us? It’s not like the day he retires he can all of a sudden release all this top secret information. I think his observations are important and will hopefully bring more publicity to the case. Who knows. Maybe he will retire and want to start a new career and have nothing to do with law enforcement and Cooper. 

That is what I was thinking..

The only thing he can add is something in the FBI files we don't have.. but he isn't talking until he leaves.

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(edited)

Cooper was described by the stews to the sketch artist as having thin lips and a protruding lower lip, that is rare. Mitchell noted a turkey neck. The stews and Mitchell would have got a good look at Cooper's profile.

1469475088_ScreenShot2022-01-24at7_19_26AM.png.5fd6f9aefdb0a63f7fb143383ca38517.png

Frank Sturgis does not, he wasn't Cooper for many other reasons. No protruding lower lip.

gettyimages-1229873187-612x612.jpg.9265c4040879a663395cd736ba84ed46.jpg

Richard Floyd McCoy does not match the description of Cooper, too young, no turkey neck thicker lips and no protruding lower lip.. lots of other reasons. What about that bulge on the back of his head.

Screen-Shot-2021-12-17-at-5_54.00-AM.png.7893299b96dd7fe9adccca130e2aefca.png

McCoy has a protruding adam's apple, a unique neck posture and blue eyes..

Look at that crazy neck posture..

large-fbi-ten-most-wanted-poster_1_351c27673f4ea6666f5c5971a3edb8b5.jpg.066e478bb06b387b37962f21fda3c711.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK
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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was described by the stews to the sketch artist as having thin lips and a protruding lower lip, that is rare. Mitchell noted a turkey neck. The stews and Mitchell would have got a good look at Cooper's profile.

1469475088_ScreenShot2022-01-24at7_19_26AM.png.5fd6f9aefdb0a63f7fb143383ca38517.png

Frank Sturgis does not, he wasn't Cooper for many other reasons. No protruding lower lip.

gettyimages-1229873187-612x612.jpg.9265c4040879a663395cd736ba84ed46.jpg

Richard Floyd McCoy does not match the description of Cooper, too young, no turkey neck thicker lips and no protruding lower lip.. lots of other reasons. What about that bulge on the back of his head.

Screen-Shot-2021-12-17-at-5_54.00-AM.png.7893299b96dd7fe9adccca130e2aefca.png

McCoy has a protruding adam's apple, a unique neck posture and blue eyes..

Look at that crazy neck posture..

large-fbi-ten-most-wanted-poster_1_351c27673f4ea6666f5c5971a3edb8b5.jpg.066e478bb06b387b37962f21fda3c711.jpg

What’s odd is that Tina did not mention the neck like Mitchell did. But Mitchell still seems very credible. 

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23 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What’s odd is that Tina did not mention the neck like Mitchell did. But Mitchell still seems very credible. 

Mitchell sat a bit further away and had a different angle, lower. Tina mostly sat next to Cooper and a turkey neck may not have been as noticeable from close up and higher.

Mitchell didn't mention the protruding lower lip but the stews did. They were closer and saw his profile.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

This is the money spot...

tbarspotmatch.jpg.d8c1a0e79bf5efd60b52ac56eff9a0d5.jpg

 

1973 money spot

july1973TBAR.jpg.4973d25c0dd61b1e46a48f4b23968aca.jpg

 

money spot (red dot) a fair distance N of 1974 dredge spoils

map Sept 1974 left shows 1974 channel dredge spoils (Aug - Sept 1974), Sept 1975 on right spoils less prominent

 

tbarSept1974-Sept1975-copy.jpg.7b017d95e9531bee974e926dbe99915a.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

This bill number is in the list of Cooper bills included in the back of Richard Tosaw's book.  

 

yes, it is on the FBI list,,  I have about 85 bills/numbers identified as being TBAR bills but not that one..

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16 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

You now have about 86 TBAR bills unless Nicky found the rest of the $200,000.

Hmmm I just talked to Eric and he says he’s confirmed it’s on the list of tbar bills. Is this information available anywhere? Backstory a lady popped up on Facebook yesterday and commented on one of EU’s posts on his Facebook page with a picture of the bill and a declaration of it available for purchase. I looked at her profile and she lives in Arkansas and previously lived in Oklahoma same places as the Ingrams. I got a message in to Brian to see if he knows anything about this Bill. It doesn’t appear to be on of Brian’s he got all of his authenticated through PSCG and there in the plexi’s plus he has kept all the better examples for himself so I doubt he’d give this one up if he had it. It’s nicer then any of the examples I’ve seen which says a lot considering it was kept in a sandwhich bag lol. I’ll keep ya guys posted. 

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21 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Hmmm I just talked to Eric and he says he’s confirmed it’s on the list of tbar bills. Is this information available anywhere? Backstory a lady popped up on Facebook yesterday and commented on one of EU’s posts on his Facebook page with a picture of the bill and a declaration of it available for purchase. I looked at her profile and she lives in Arkansas and previously lived in Oklahoma same places as the Ingrams. I got a message in to Brian to see if he knows anything about this Bill. It doesn’t appear to be on of Brian’s he got all of his authenticated through PSCG and there in the plexi’s plus he has kept all the better examples for himself so I doubt he’d give this one up if he had it. It’s nicer then any of the examples I’ve seen which says a lot considering it was kept in a sandwhich bag lol. I’ll keep ya guys posted. 

There is no actual TBAR bill list,, Eric must mean the FBI bill list..

I haven't seen this one before,, it is new for the TBAR list I have which is probably the most comprehensive other than Snowmman's list which he stole from me...

Anyway, it is a very good example, I wonder where it came from.

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53 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There is no actual TBAR bill list,, Eric must mean the FBI bill list..

I haven't seen this one before,, it is new for the TBAR list I have which is probably the most comprehensive other than Snowmman's list which he stole from me...

Anyway, it is a very good example, I wonder where it came from.

Fly. 85 would still leave 215 Tbar bills. Do we not know the serial numbers on those other 215 or so? As I understand, Brian got back a portion and the insurance company a portion. Did the FBI keep some? The initials on the bills make me think this was found at Tina Bar. I’ve heard speculation that agents took some as souvenirs. 

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2 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Hmmm I just talked to Eric and he says he’s confirmed it’s on the list of tbar bills. Is this information available anywhere? Backstory a lady popped up on Facebook yesterday and commented on one of EU’s posts on his Facebook page with a picture of the bill and a declaration of it available for purchase. I looked at her profile and she lives in Arkansas and previously lived in Oklahoma same places as the Ingrams. I got a message in to Brian to see if he knows anything about this Bill. It doesn’t appear to be on of Brian’s he got all of his authenticated through PSCG and there in the plexi’s plus he has kept all the better examples for himself so I doubt he’d give this one up if he had it. It’s nicer then any of the examples I’ve seen which says a lot considering it was kept in a sandwhich bag lol. I’ll keep ya guys posted. 

I looked at her profile and she lives in Arkansas and previously lived in Oklahoma same places as the Ingrams. .... that describes Brian's mother.

FBI:  14 bills = 280.00

Ingram:  138 bills = 2760.00

Globe:  138 bills = 2760.00 

NWA vs Globe 1975 at Minneapolis

STEPHEN P. RICKLES for Globe Ins

Richard Tosaw for Ingrams, took his payment in bills...

*some of the fragments were later separated by the auction company into multiple bill frags ... so total number of bills found is undetermined.

Edited by georger

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54 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Fly. 85 would still leave 215 Tbar bills. Do we not know the serial numbers on those other 215 or so? As I understand, Brian got back a portion and the insurance company a portion. Did the FBI keep some? The initials on the bills make me think this was found at Tina Bar. I’ve heard speculation that agents took some as souvenirs. 

The money was sent to the FBI lab and they estimated 285 bills..

That doesn't mean 285 identified serial numbers so there is no full TBAR S/N list even at the FBI.

Years ago some additional S/N's were identified from fragments, not more bills just more serial numbers.

The FBI kept 14 and rest were split between Globe Insurance and Brian who gave some to Tosaw. Perhaps others took some bills.. but the majority went to Globe and Brian.

I have ID'd around 80-85 TBAR serial numbers but there are many more pieces out there that do not have S/N's. The bills I have ID'd include all the ones Brian auctioned and any that have crossed the internet in images or were in the FBI files.

This bill is signed by an agent and being such a good example is rare and valuable.

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I'm willing to bet he survived and laughed at every bit of this through the years sitting on a beach and drinking whatever he wanted.  For years.  Probably decades.  I bet he lived a good life.  He was probably a regular guy who had enough and didn't tell anyone.  Hes also probably dead from old age.

Or he died out there when he jumped and had the rest of his life to figure out how to spend the money.

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