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DB Cooper

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Robert - Turn on any sporting event and take a good look. No one is fearful of any kind of super spreader any longer. It's over. Only those with legitimate health concerns are worried at this point. Everyone else is getting back to normal. If your campout bombs, or if Cooper Con bombs, it will be for reasons other than Covid.

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1 hour ago, Para-DZ said:

This person Chaucer on the DBCooper forum is posting again about pressure bumps. What is he trying to prove? I don’t see him adding anything to the case. 

I think his current question is valid. He's asking whether there were oscillations or pressure bumps reported in the other skyjacking jump cases. Since the pressure bump is a major factor in trying to determine when Cooper jumped, I think there is relevance. As in, did the pilots 'feel' it when the other skyjackers jumped.

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I understand the importance of the pressure bump in determining when he jumped. Chaucer is trying to say there is an issue with the reports of the oscilations and the pressure bump. He’s making an issue out of something that is not an issue. I’ve seen his posts.  

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Hey does anyone here know anything about any suspect(s) from Alaska? Specifically there is a guy mentioned in this podcast episode: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-missing-in-alaska-62503099/episode/dont-knock-arizona-83091216/ at about 45 minutes in. Interview with the relevant guy starts at about 25 minutes in for more context, but it's really just a fleeting mention, very interesting nonetheless.

 

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(edited)

Circling back...

The fluctuations/oscillations increased AFTER the test sled/weight left the stairs. This indicates that Cooper left right before the crew reported increased oscillations at 8:11/10. Rataczak said: 'That's just the way It was 8:10 p.m. Nov 24.' The confusion is the post event rationalization by the crew to distinguish the increase in frequency and magnitude of the oscillations by using the term "pressure bump". Minor oscillations/fluctuations were there for some time prior to the crew message, they just increased in frequency and magnitude. The crew did not comprehend what was going on at the time but reported the "pressure bump" in retrospect. The sled test showed that the oscillations/fluctuations INCREASED AFTER the weight left the stairs NOT BEFORE.

Also, the stairs retracted to within eight inches of closed.

and

Three subsequent 727 bailouts also exhibited the same rapid fluctuations.

 

This means Cooper did not jump over/near the Columbia River and the FBI got the LZ correct as far south as Battle Ground.

 

576086394_fluctuationsfeltFBI23113.jpeg.087210c18ab02b3812ca8a704c5521d5.jpeg

 

FBI p# 23113

..dropped off while a chase plane photographed its trajectory as it parachuted to the ground.

“As the load left the stairway it re-tracted to within eight Inches of closing, then dropped back down. The result was a marked fluctuation In the cabin air pressure which caused the crews ears to pop and registered a rapid change In the rate of on instruments In the cockpit.

"Rataczak said: 'That's just the way It was 8:10 p.m. Nov 24.' Only the crew dtdn't know what it meant then. They didn't know be had bailed out until they landed at Reno and found the plane empty.”

 

The same rapid fluctuations in air pressure were noted in three bailouts from 727 airliners in the next few months, before the FAA ordered all rear doors rigged so they could not be opened in flight. 

 

Edited by FLYJACK
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Georger is trolling Shutter's site again,

He has distorted, twisted and outright lied about my post here, as usual.

All the members of Shutter's site need to know that Georger is intentionally misinforming them regarding the Cooper case to advance his own views.

He is toxic and continues to waste everyone's time.

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Geoffrey Gray's book claimed Cooper had Benzedrine,, 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=01dWQTJamLkC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=d+b+cooper+benzedrine&source=bl&ots=6LwP5pqTjw&sig=ACfU3U2RWJulFeDoWIswfgPmsAI37g8gpg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyj7DvnY7xAhWE754KHZlNBvAQ6AEwEXoECBgQAw#v=onepage&q=d b cooper benzedrine&f=false

Tosaw claimed Cooper "had pills for the crew.."

Here an article in the FBI files claims Cooper had Benzedrine for the crew.

113071oregonianbenzedrenefood.jpeg.dab44c41eaa002ca3b2addde41c30837.jpeg.156b899d7f87a5ff9fc15b80fbe6d1e2.jpeg

 

Safe to conclude Cooper had Benzedrine for the crew... no evidence they took it.

 

So what does this suggest...  

Why have Benzedrine for the crew for a 5.5 hour event if his plan was to jump in the PNW. It doesn't make sense. It does make sense if Cooper's initial plan was to jump much later and South of the US border.

 

 

I have alone argued that evidence suggests Cooper's initial plan was to jump much later but changed his LZ when Reno came into play. 

Cooper initially demanded airstairs lowered in flight then during negotiations with the crew he changed it. 

The pilot transmissions of his initial demand was airstairs lowered after takeoff. FACT

stairsloweredafttakeoffaa.jpg.1d50e127d1c3ab0241c97b3f8253dacb.jpg

 

The FBI files also confirm by stating that Cooper demanded airstairs extended after take-off then later changed the demand to before take off. FACT

 stairinitdemand.jpeg.f635c8a7e60531879eb47a210d102050.jpeg.93b44eacdff5157b37f14ae58c19f60e.jpeg

 

Back to Benzedrine...  

Why would Cooper need to have Benzedrine available and offer it to the crew for an event from 2:50 in the afternoon to 8:11 in the evening unless Cooper initially had a much longer trip planned. 

There is probably a larger discussion about Benzedrine and the military connection.

 

 

Any other swarthy 727 hijackers have Benzedrine for the crew???

Benzedrine was used by Hahneman for himself and the crew for the long journey to Southern Mexico.

Daily News from New York, New York (Hahneman)

May 6, 1972

the plane circled in a 100-mile holding pattern over northern Virginia and Washington. Then, shortly after 7 p.m., the plane landed for a second time at Dulles, this time to remain for about an hour for 10 minutes. During his second stop, the first bundle of money was swapped for a second bundle and the hijacker also demanded and got five Benzedrine tablets, or "Bennies," probably to keep him awake, and several evening newspapers. 

 

I DO NOT give Georger permission to copy this post in full or in part.

FLYJACK

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7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Geoffrey Gray's book claimed Cooper had Benzedrine,, 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=01dWQTJamLkC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=d+b+cooper+benzedrine&source=bl&ots=6LwP5pqTjw&sig=ACfU3U2RWJulFeDoWIswfgPmsAI37g8gpg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyj7DvnY7xAhWE754KHZlNBvAQ6AEwEXoECBgQAw#v=onepage&q=d b cooper benzedrine&f=false

Tosaw claimed Cooper "had pills for the crew.."

Here an article in the FBI files claims Cooper had Benzedrine for the crew.

335147650_CooperbenzadrineFBIp23008.jpeg.a809f79349dad01f94b05c0cd2bce2a0.jpeg

 

Safe to conclude Cooper had Benzedrine for the crew... no evidence they took it.

 

So what does this suggest...  

Why have Benzedrine for the crew for a 5.5 hour event if his plan was to jump in the PNW. It doesn't make sense. It does make sense if Cooper's initial plan was to jump much later and South of the US border.

 

 

I have alone argued that evidence suggests Cooper's initial plan was to jump much later but changed his LZ when Reno came into play. 

Cooper initially demanded airstairs lowered in flight then during negotiations with the crew he changed it. 

The pilot transmissions of his initial demand was airstairs lowered after takeoff. FACT

stairsloweredafttakeoffaa.jpg.1d50e127d1c3ab0241c97b3f8253dacb.jpg

 

The FBI files also confirm by stating that Cooper demanded airstairs extended after take-off then later changed the demand to before take off. FACT

 stairinitdemand.jpeg.f635c8a7e60531879eb47a210d102050.jpeg.93b44eacdff5157b37f14ae58c19f60e.jpeg

 

Back to Benzedrine...  

Why would Cooper need to have Benzedrine available and offer it to the crew for an event from 2:50 in the afternoon to 8:11 in the evening unless Cooper initially had a much longer trip planned. 

There is probably a larger discussion about Benzedrine and the military connection.

 

 

Any other swarthy 727 hijackers have Benzedrine for the crew???

Benzedrine was used by Hahneman for himself and the crew for the long journey to Southern Mexico.

Daily News from New York, New York (Hahneman)

May 6, 1972

the plane circled in a 100-mile holding pattern over northern Virginia and Washington. Then, shortly after 7 p.m., the plane landed for a second time at Dulles, this time to remain for about an hour for 10 minutes. During his second stop, the first bundle of money was swapped for a second bundle and the hijacker also demanded and got five Benzedrine tablets, or "Bennies," probably to keep him awake, and several evening newspapers. 

 

I DO NOT give Georger permission to copy this post in full or in part.

FLYJACK

One of the pics didn't show up,,  added it in again.

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(edited)
On 6/11/2021 at 8:52 AM, FLYJACK said:

Circling back...

The fluctuations/oscillations increased AFTER the test sled/weight left the stairs. This indicates that Cooper left right before the crew reported increased oscillations at 8:11/10. Rataczak said: 'That's just the way It was 8:10 p.m. Nov 24.' The confusion is the post event rationalization by the crew to distinguish the increase in frequency and magnitude of the oscillations by using the term "pressure bump". Minor oscillations/fluctuations were there for some time prior to the crew message, they just increased in frequency and magnitude. The crew did not comprehend what was going on at the time but reported the "pressure bump" in retrospect. The sled test showed that the oscillations/fluctuations INCREASED AFTER the weight left the stairs NOT BEFORE.

Also, the stairs retracted to within eight inches of closed.

and

Three subsequent 727 bailouts also exhibited the same rapid fluctuations.

 

This means Cooper did not jump over/near the Columbia River and the FBI got the LZ correct as far south as Battle Ground.

 

576086394_fluctuationsfeltFBI23113.jpeg.087210c18ab02b3812ca8a704c5521d5.jpeg

 

FBI p# 23113

..dropped off while a chase plane photographed its trajectory as it parachuted to the ground.

“As the load left the stairway it re-tracted to within eight Inches of closing, then dropped back down. The result was a marked fluctuation In the cabin air pressure which caused the crews ears to pop and registered a rapid change In the rate of on instruments In the cockpit.

"Rataczak said: 'That's just the way It was 8:10 p.m. Nov 24.' Only the crew dtdn't know what it meant then. They didn't know be had bailed out until they landed at Reno and found the plane empty.”

 

The same rapid fluctuations in air pressure were noted in three bailouts from 727 airliners in the next few months, before the FAA ordered all rear doors rigged so they could not be opened in flight. 

 

No Georger, you revised your comment slightly but are still engaged in misinformation..

I stated the results of the sled test. The oscillations/fluctuations increased after the sled was dropped. It isn't my theory or opinion. I just stated the reported results of the sled test.

I also stated that there were fluctuations/oscillations before Cooper's believed jump time. You lied and claimed I stated there were none. The crew referred to them as "minor".

The point I was making was that based on the sled test the fluctuations/oscillations INCREASED in frequency and magnitude AFTER the weight left the stairs. For Cooper, that was later in retrospect referred to as the "pressure bump".. by the crew who did not fully realize what was happening in real time.

minor oscillations/fluctuations > Cooper jumps > dramatic increase in frequency/magnitude of oscillations/fluctuations aka "pressure bump"

You also lied by claiming I said Cooper jumped at Orchards.. I never claimed Cooper jumped at Orchards.

I said "as far South as Battle Ground" to emphasize the most southern point for the FBI LZ zone. The crew also stated that that they thought the (jump) time was no later than 8:15. Battle Ground is only the southern point for the LZ...  Cooper may have jumped further North.

Basically, the FBI got it right. There is no evidence to support the theory Cooper jumped over the Columbia, even the diatoms reject it.

 

hjlandingzone-map1.jpg.661621431f94d17b4774a49a68ef3379.jpg

 

The clipping is consistent with the sled test...

The "violent" change occurred after the weight left the stairs.

Anderson claimed it was identical with the hijacking.

 

sledtestaa.jpg.922bb2f7e3bfafdad353254cf4a1b81b.jpg

 

The so-called "pressure bump" is an oscillation.. it is one of increased magnitude.

grayoscillations.jpeg.e87a229a42a849286775166bd6da3322.jpeg

 

A:    I monitored the gauges and reported to Captain Scott.  We all agreed that the gauges were detecting a disruption of airflow, most likely caused by Cooper testing out the aft stairs.   But we all felt one physically distinguishable "bump" with our ears which came abruptly after we had been monitoring the gauges. We all felt it almost in unison, surprised, "there he goes!"  It was the largest bump by far, an abrupt pressure change.  We all thought he had exited the aircraft at that point, because the gauges never detected any further major airflow disruptions after that ‘thud’. The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly. 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

My conclusion is simple,, the FBI got the LZ right and Cooper jumped about 8:11. That is well short of the Columbia R.

 

So, Georger needs to prove the FBI's LZ is wrong. He can't.

 

 

The four stages of Georger

1 Ridicule, smear, lie and discredit

2 Obfuscate, distract and distort

3 Double down on stages 1 and 2

4 Spend years stuck in the Vortex pushing failed arguments

 

boeingtestpressure.jpeg.49b5ea6d08b797690c7006ecc775f06b.jpeg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

My conclusion is simple,, the FBI got the LZ right and Cooper jumped about 8:11. That is well short of the Columbia R.

 

So, Georger needs to prove the FBI's LZ is wrong. He can't.

 

 

The four stages of Georger

1 Ridicule, smear, lie and discredit

2 Obfuscate, distract and distort

3 Double down on stages 1 and 2

4 Spend years stuck in the Vortex pushing failed arguments

 

boeingtestpressure.jpeg.49b5ea6d08b797690c7006ecc775f06b.jpeg

 

Georger and Chaucer are quarrelsome with others on that forum.

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The so called "pressure bump" was the oscillations... it wasn't a new event.

Minor oscillations were noted for some time but increased "violently" in frequency and magnitude,,, that increase was later described as the famous "pressure bump" felt by the crew. 

The crew and the FBI believe their 8:12 report of "oscillations" refer to that pressure bump.

"Pressure bump" was term applied in retrospect to differentiate those oscillations which increased in frequency and magnitude from the others.

 

The real question is where was the plane??

The 8:12 timestamp can be off a minute or two and the flightpath can be off a minute or two..

That puts the jump at the planes location at 8:12 on the FBI map plus or minus about 3 minutes along the path. That matches the FBI analysis for Cooper's LZ.

 

grayoscillations.jpeg.e87a229a42a849286775166bd6da3322.jpeg.072c80e205af31b9d81909cf8505bdce.jpeg

 

 

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2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 ... it makes sense to me that he might pull the ripcord and just let the chute squid out behind him, inflate, and pull him right off the stairs. 

Yeah, if he intended to commit suicide. The acceleration (deceleration?) force would likely have snapped his neck (and the rest of his body). That's assuming the pilot chute and lines didn't snag on the ramp/stairs/support in what was very likely very turbulent air back there. 

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11 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well, I see you are a skydiver so I have to respect your opinion. But....the NB8 is a tough bulldog of a chute and was the same one used as a bailout rig for jet pilots. I don't know if this makes any difference, but the Boeing 727 was not at full cruising speed. It was traveling at about 185MPH at the time of the jump. Truth is that no one knows if he pulled off the stairs or simply jumped until he stabilized and pulled the ripcord at that point. 

377 here at DZ thinks is was easily survivable. I have met this guy when they were doing the yearly Cooper party down at the Ariel Tavern. He's been jumping close to fifty years at least. I dunno....

Let's stick to facts here.  There is no proof at this time that Cooper jumped with either an NB8 or NB6 canopy.  The backpack that remained on the airliner is suppose to be identical to the one that Cooper jumped but the canopy that is in it can not be determined until the WSHM agrees to open it and inspect the canopy.  However, the WSHM parachute does not have an NB8 or NB6 harness, container, or pilot chute since these can be determined by simple inspection without opening the container.

 

The airliner was actually doing about 225 MPH when Cooper jumped.  Very few, if any, parachutes in 1971 could survive an opening at that speed.  Even if Cooper didn't open off the stairs, his terminal velocity at 10,000 feet would be something on the order of 180 MPH.

 

I believe there are posters on this thread and elsewhere who have more jumping experience than 377.

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Well, if he was a skydiver, then I highly doubt he would have done that. He'd jump clear of the plane, stabilize himself at about a 120-130 mph fall rate in a belly-to-earth posture, then deploy. Even if the plane was traveling 120 mph, I'd fear snagging of the pilot chute or lines with parts of the plane and ramp, particularly in the turbulent air that back there. And I'd also fear the speed would more quickly inflate the main, which means the forces experienced would be even greater then the 2x you'd estimate just from the velocity (squared).

But the fact that he chose a dummy reserve seems to suggest he wasn't a skydiver, and so perhaps all that didn't occur to him.

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(forgive me for asking questions that I assume have already been addressed.)  How do you know the dummy reserve couldn't be attached to a harness? The wikipedia DB Cooper paged linked to an FBI page that only said it was "sewn shut". I would think if you have a mock-up for ground training that it would be important to be able to attach it to a (dummy) harness, so you can feel the weight and bulk, see your altimeter (often mounted on top of the reserve), etc. Otherwise it's just something to look at, which doesn't seem worth the trouble to create, given that there were plenty real reserves at DZs to look at. So has it been established that it lacked the ability to be attached to a harness?

Why would he have wasted time and effort discarding it if he recognized it was a dummy? Unlike other things he apparently tossed, he didn't bring this on the plane, so it wasn't something that might have value in IDing him that he needed to get rid of. (Canvas wouldn't have finger prints on them.)

I suppose he could have cannibalized the good reserve for lines before he noticed that the other wasn't real (and so he knew he'd be jumping without a reserve), but still doesn't explain why he later tossed it. (Maybe he only noticed it at the last minute, as putting the reserve on would be one of the last things he would do after getting geared up, and threw it out in frustration when he finally discovered it wasn't real.)

 

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