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On 8/24/2020 at 6:41 AM, FLYJACK said:

article in FBI files..

The pop cans and most of the money were found six to eight inches below the surface, but fragments of the money reportedly were as far down as three feet.

Palmer could not explain how the money might have been buried that deep. He said there was "no conclusive evidence" that money was in fact found three feet down, and surmised that it may have been deposited there in digging actions.

 

It indicates Palmer did not believe the money fragments were three feet deep.

 

moneydeeppalmer.jpeg

Palmer,,

No evidence that the money was three feet down, it may have been deposited there in digging actions.

 

The evidence suggests that the money most likely arrived as one single rubber banded bundle of packets of 100 bills each... eliminating theories based on the assumption that the money only arrived as 3 separate packets is poor logic.

 

From there, I have several theories and none point to any particular suspect whatsoever.

Everyone is open to figure out their own theories.

 

but, theories must fit the evidence.

Eric's claim that the money spot was only underwater June 72 and 74 during a high flood is completely false. He just made it up. In June '72 the money spot was about 10-15 feet underwater. The idea that Cooper buries the money next to a River in a remote area when there are far safer areas to bury money then rushes back during a flood to dig it up from far underwater but loses some packets is ridiculous, even for conjecture.

Tom's diatom analysis indicates the money was initially exposed to the River in Spring. 

The money had to be outside the River until a Spring entry into the River.

The money was in the same order and form as it was given to Cooper.

The money sinks. I would like to know what a bundle actually does on the bottom, some debris remains suspended just off the bottom after sinking.

Spring is the seasonal high water flow for the Columbia R.

The "FBI" flightpath should be considered accurate within a small error.

The 8:11 to 8:15 jump time should be considered accurate.

 

Two unproven variables..

The Heisson store break in. 

The railroad tracks..

 

 

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1 minute ago, Andrade1812 said:

The dredging timeline doesn't fit the diatom analysis, unfortunately. Which means the money has to be out of the bank bag and fanned out, in the Columbia, in June.

Not necessarily June, could be June but was in Spring. TBAR spot was underwater probably every or most Springs from 72-79..

 

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1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Flyjack,

You mentioned that you had some theories as to how the money got in the river and arrived on Tena Bar. I have some thoughts on that too, but I'd like to get yours.

Also, has their been any analysis done on a drop zone if Cooper jumped near the Columbia? 

I am still looking at some aspects of a new theory.. it has a two best options, both are proving impossible to prove.

I don't believe Cooper jumped into the Columbia.. based on diatoms and evidence indicates he probably did not jump South of about Brush Prairie, the 8:15 time, based on pilots statements and the oscillations.. Brush Prairie happens to be right on the railroad tracks and within walking distance/time of the Heisson store approx. 11:30 break in.. also next to the same tracks.. that isn't proven to be Cooper but is a bonus..  

But, the money was on land for some time before entering the River. Cooper could have lost some money and very rare natural event occurred in Spring that could have introduced a money bundle or maybe more into the Columbia River upstream of TBAR... that event occurred when the TBAR money spot was under water in Spring.

The money "in theory" could have come from where Cooper lost it on land or more likely from a place right on the Columbia that I have identified. I have been trying to track down the people associated with that place but after 50 years it is really tough. 

One of those people could have been Cooper, known Cooper, helped Cooper or found money Cooper lost.

 

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Thanks to people like Georger and Ulis I have publicly posted only about 20% of my research...

and I have so much stuff I forget what I have already done..

I went back in my files..

 

Palmer believed the fragments found at depth were deposited by digging actions..

I agree, that is most likely, the digging was sloppy and few frags were found.

 

I found a high resolution image of the fragment found by the FBI and with 5 digits from the serial number plus the letter G matched a Cooper bill.

G21056376B was the serial number for the larger bill fragment found by the FBI.

It is not in my TBAR bill number list but I have accumulated only 85 out of the roughly 285-300 bills in the three packets. If this bill number was not from the three packets the FBI would know as the FBI had the micro of bills in order.

This is not the hi res image.

tbarfragfound.jpeg.c5f8d4aaa06f85e52a719909c8623e39.jpeg

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12 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

The dredging timeline doesn't fit the diatom analysis, unfortunately. Which means the money has to be out of the bank bag and fanned out, in the Columbia, in June.

So, I'm asking this simply because I don't know the answer. I'll leave all of these diatom scenarios up to those who know more about them than I do. But if the money was in the bank bag, would that prevent the money from having the diatoms? I guess what I'm asking is this: Is it possible that the bank bag went into the water in November, and at some point the TB money came out of the bag in the spring time, thus accounting for the diatoms? 

 

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9 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So, I'm asking this simply because I don't know the answer. I'll leave all of these diatom scenarios up to those who know more about them than I do. But if the money was in the bank bag, would that prevent the money from having the diatoms? I guess what I'm asking is this: Is it possible that the bank bag went into the water in November, and at some point the TB money came out of the bag in the spring time, thus accounting for the diatoms? 

 

I would leave the final answer up to Tom, but based on the conclusions in his paper, that scenario doesn't work. There is a distinct disconnect between the timing of the hijacking and when the TB money is exposed to the Columbia river. They are different events.

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(edited)
7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Thanks to people like Georger and Ulis I have publicly posted only about 20% of my research...

and I have so much stuff I forget what I have already done..

I went back in my files..

 

Palmer believed the fragments found at depth were deposited by digging actions..

I agree, that is most likely, the digging was sloppy and few frags were found.

 

I found a high resolution image of the fragment found by the FBI and with 5 digits from the serial number plus the letter G matched a Cooper bill.

G21056376B was the serial number for the larger bill fragment found by the FBI.

It is not in my TBAR bill number list but I have accumulated only 85 out of the roughly 285-300 bills in the three packets. If this bill number was not from the three packets the FBI would know as the FBI had the micro of bills in order.

This is not the hi res image.

tbarfragfound.jpeg.c5f8d4aaa06f85e52a719909c8623e39.jpeg

Brilliant Georger where did you steal that from..

The FBI would know from the serial number if the frag came from the packets Brian found or another 4th packet. We'd probably know if that was the case.

 

And the packet vs bundle is still a mystery to Georger.. he just does not understand the significance.

All it does is explain why Carr got it wrong, people used/beleived the term "bundle" to refer to two different things.. Georger is stuck on the words, the issue is the meaning. 

Carr claimed the 3 "bundles" found were of different counts, they were not. He thought "bundle" meant the "packets".. Get it,,  you can call them whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that Carr was 100% wrong. You need to clearly distinguish a group of 100 bills from a group of groups of 100 bills.

 

 

Ulis is wrong the FBI files and crew transcripts note that Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight. I don't know how Ulis phrased the question to Rataczak or if he remembers accurately. I don't trust Ulis to extract the facts. He probably asked the question vaguely. This is a very nuanced issue and Eric refuses to accept the existence of the files..

Rataczak should be shown the FBI docs and crew transcripts that show Cooper INITIALLY asked for airstairs lowered inflight...  but Ulis refuses to acknowledge these docs even exist. 

The question to RAT isn't if Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered on takeoff... that doesn't capture the issue. Rat assumes the question is referring the fact that Cooper was convinced to change to airstairs lowered in flight. You get an answer to the wrong question.. but that is how Ulis rolls.

The better question is,, when Cooper made his initial demands the crew transcripts convey airstairs to be lowered IN FLIGHT, did Cooper later change his demand to lowered  ON TAKE OFF as the FBI files note before being convinced to lowered IN FLIGHT.  

 

The crew transcripts state it before negotiating while conveying Cooper's initial demand.. aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff. 

stiarslwrdafttakeoff.jpeg.920895a059ab42f4490076a8b0431200.jpeg

 

This is easier to read,,, HJ initially demanded aft stairs extended after take off. Later fully extended before take off.. Crew advised take off with air stairs down impossible and HJ advised asked if partial...

stairslwrafttakeoff.jpeg.7d18c99f995a35bcc618ca46fff79fdf.jpeg

 

The FBI made it clear...  Cooper changed the airstair demand from lowered after takeoff to before.

stairinitdemand.jpeg.f635c8a7e60531879eb47a210d102050.jpeg.cb49fd3e415225cf5c5a432b82755cf4.jpeg

Initial demand noted... airstairs lowered inflight.

harrisonpapairstairlowinflight.jpeg.0d52fd9d56b366de265cb183e100da68.jpeg.c9366cd96944bb2c20f8e44c35172c61.jpeg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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4 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly, maybe you can assist here. How many parachutes are mentioned in the FOIA files? I know of one north of the Lewis River, the one on the S. Fork Lewis River, and the Amboy chute. I know there were others, did you keep track?

Lots of them, I haven't kept track. Off the top of may head maybe a dozen...

Without Cossey, as sketchy/conflicting as his descriptions were, there is no way to confirm any chutes now. 

Any chutes found now or in the past are unverifiable and have no evidentiary value.

 

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(edited)

8:05 was the  last time the flight crew hear from Cooper when he responded to them on the intercom that "everything was OK"

8:10 was the first time there are any reports of "oscillations" (FBI Vault, Part 41, p. 31 & 32)

8:12 was the last time there are any reports of "oscillations".(FBI Vault, Part 41, p. 31 & 32)  At this point the plane was just east of LaCenter. 

There is no official report of a "pressure bump" which is generally used as the point at which Cooper jumped causing the stairs to swing back up. We don't know when that took place, but we know it took place AFTER 8:12 because the oscillations preceded the pressure bump.

So, while we don't have an exact time of the pressure bump, we do have pilot statements. Rat said initially that the pressure bump was felt 5 to 10 minutes after last contact (8:05). That would put the bump between 8:10 and 8:15. We know it can't be between 8:10 and 8:12 because that is when the oscillations are happening. So it would have to happen between 8:13 and 8:15. However, Rat later told Carr that the pressure bump occurred 10 to 15 minutes after last contact (8:05). This would give you a range between 8:15 and 8:20 for the pressure bump. 

However, further statements by the crew were that the pressure bump occurred when "the lights of the suburbs of Portland were visible" but they "had not yet crossed the Columbia. The plane crossed over the Columbia at 8:17, so we can eliminate any bump happening after 8:17. 

Thus, the timing of the oscillations combined with the statements of the pilot give a range between 8:13 and 8:17 for Cooper jumping and causing the pressure bump. The median of this time range is 8:15. At 8:15 the plane is over the Orchards area. 

In actuality, the northernmost jump point is just north of Battleground and the southernmost would be the northern banks of the Columbia. I used Orchards as a center between the two. 

My contention is that the jump occurred in the 8:16/8:17 time frame and Cooper and/or the money came to rest very near the banks of the Columbia.

As far as what happened to Cooper and the money once it left the aircraft is merely an educated guess, but I believe the river is the most likely vehicle for the money to end up on Tena Bar.

Edited by Chaucer

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

8:05 was the  last time the flight crew hear from Cooper when he responded to them on the intercom that "everything was OK"

8:10 was the first time there are any reports of "oscillations" (FBI Vault, Part 41, p. 31 & 32)

8:12 was the last time there are any reports of "oscillations".(FBI Vault, Part 41, p. 31 & 32)  At this point the plane was just east of LaCenter. 

There is no official report of a "pressure bump" which is generally used as the point at which Cooper jumped causing the stairs to swing back up. We don't know when that took place, but we know it took place AFTER 8:12 because the oscillations preceded the pressure bump.

So, while we don't have an exact time of the pressure bump, we do have pilot statements. Rat said initially that the pressure bump was felt 5 to 10 minutes after last contact (8:05). That would put the bump between 8:10 and 8:15. We know it can't be between 8:10 and 8:12 because that is when the oscillations are happening. So it would have to happen between 8:13 and 8:15. However, Rat later told Carr that the pressure bump occurred 10 to 15 minutes after last contact (8:05). This would give you a range between 8:15 and 8:20 for the pressure bump. 

However, further statements by the crew were that the pressure bump occurred when "the lights of the suburbs of Portland were visible" but they "had not yet crossed the Columbia. The plane crossed over the Columbia at 8:17, so we can eliminate any bump happening after 8:17. 

Thus, the timing of the oscillations combined with the statements of the pilot give a range between 8:13 and 8:17 for Cooper jumping and causing the pressure bump. The median of this time range is 8:15. At 8:15 the plane is over the Orchards area. 

In actuality, the northernmost jump point is just north of Battleground and the southernmost would be the northern banks of the Columbia. I used Orchards as a center between the two. 

My contention is that the jump occurred in the 8:16/8:17 time frame and Cooper and/or the money came to rest very near the banks of the Columbia.

As far as what happened to Cooper and the money once it left the aircraft is merely an educated guess, but I believe the river is the most likely vehicle for the money to end up on Tena Bar.

A few things to consider,, 

First, the timestamps are not that accurate, they are entered at the end of a transmission and after the crew has verbalized their "experience" and whole numbers. Those times are probably 1-2 minutes after a reported occurrence. Combine that with a N/S time error on the flightpath map, those time stamps are not exact. So, we are trying to pinpoint a spot using two variables with built in errors.

The FBI had all this info and more and put the Southern point at about 8:15 on their map.

Here,, the FBI has the pressure bump at 8:10.. no later than 8:15. The hard part is confirming exactly where the plane was at those time.

pb2.jpeg.5defabea36499681e1da927072ce66ba.jpeg

cooplz2.jpeg.60929b0e3cb114226b5f835912133463.jpeg

There was a "blob" on the FDR at 8:09. (based on the FDR time different from transcript time)

Oscillations vs Pressure Bump...  I think the pressure bump was first, stairs go up max thrust after Cooper leaves causing the pressure bump then stairs oscillate in a decreasing swing up and down... but they were very close in time.

pressure bump at 8:11??

pressurebump.jpeg.aa47af86073e101bad52563d2ecc5f04.jpeg

Cooper would have to jump at 8:18 over Portland to land N side of Columbia R.. we know the wind at Portland.

IMO, Cooper would not choose to jump over an urban area like Vancouver and Portland.

Pilots stated they saw the lights of Portland and other distinctive lights in the area,, that would include Vancouver's lights...  that suggests Cooper jumped N of Vancouver..  I would think that the seeing lights of Portland would include Vancouver. 

 

lightsofportland.jpg.f02ae4ebcb1348f86c0b83e57c77b9cf.jpg

 

Everybody at some point has considered and tried to put Cooper landing in the Columbia River, but the Spring diatom's negate that.. landing near on land, possible but a body would be found. IMO, 8:15 about Brush Prairie is the farthest S.

 

Yes, the most likely source of the money is from the River,, I have a few theories that put the money into the R, maintain the jump zone, flightpath and Spring diatom constraint. There are probably others.

Edited by FLYJACK

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Thanks, Flyjack. If Cooper was a no-pull, there would be virtually no drift. He could jump over the north bank of the Columbia and end up along that bank or one of the nearby islands, such as Government, Lemon, or McGuire. The body and/or the money remain there until Spring where the flood waters pick it up along with other nearby debris and carry it downstream to Tena Bar. 

Regarding your comment about the time stamps, I think this could work both ways, no? They could be later than they state. Also, the original search area was near Lake Merwin. Now, most consider Battle Ground/Orchards a better spot. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that that location is farther south. 

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(edited)
56 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Thanks, Flyjack. If Cooper was a no-pull, there would be virtually no drift. He could jump over the north bank of the Columbia and end up along that bank or one of the nearby islands, such as Government, Lemon, or McGuire. The body and/or the money remain there until Spring where the flood waters pick it up along with other nearby debris and carry it downstream to Tena Bar. 

Regarding your comment about the time stamps, I think this could work both ways, no? They could be later than they state. Also, the original search area was near Lake Merwin. Now, most consider Battle Ground/Orchards a better spot. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that that location is farther south. 

A no-pull body in that area would probably be found by now. 

It is widely accepted that the time stamps on those transcripts are 1 minute later (plus rounding error) than real time occurrence, the stamp was at the end of the transmission. Generally, deduct 1-2 minutes, even that isn't really precise. The crew feels something, then articulates it then the time is stamped at the end of the transmission. The timestamp will always be later. You'll notice sometimes the FBI says 8:10 and other times 8:11 for the same event..  

The search area did go S to Battleground. Merwin and Ariel got the publicity..

searcharea1.jpeg.ecf3a2a699270a86dd95877615e10ae2.jpeg

Generally, the search area migrated South because of the TBAR money find bias,, it is human nature to try to make it fit.. we all have done it. The Vortex can distort your analysis.. Robert99 and Eric created a new flightpath to make it fit. Some have tried to put the money in the Washougal drainage area.

The reality is, nobody knows exactly where Cooper jumped..   it is conjecture... evidence indicates Cooper jumped between 8:09 at the very earliest to 8:15. Anywhere in there is equally valid and outside of that while possible becomes significantly less likely.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Rat's comment,, our friend took leave.. is well documented from him but do not appear in the 302's and do not have any time reference.

The FDR noted a "blob" at 8:09,, the FDR is right in the tail next to the airstairs. The "pressure bump" was at 8:10 or 8:11 both times are noted. Since those times are not precise and not synchronized.. it is reasonable to conclude that those were the same event. 

Now, we move to the flightpath. It has an error rate of 1 minute.. 

Applying the blob and bump with the 1 minute error that puts the sweet spot at between the 8:09 - 8:12 physical marks on the map, about 9 miles long. Those physical marks are not necessarily the exact real time.

The problem is the relationship between the FDR time, transcript time and flightpath time, they all have a build in error rate and are not synchronized to each other. We have to find a nexus with three different baselines.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Georger, respectfully, you still do not understand this.

Carr was wrong.. here is his statement, if you can't even see or admit that this is 100% wrong then you don't grasp the issue..

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it. I have been searching for the evidence report from the lab but have not found it yet, lots of files to go through. When I get it you'll be the second to know."

I can claim he was wrong because it is clear he was.

You keep denying it, do you beleive the above statement is correct?

He got it wrong... the money was 3 "groups" of $2000...  given to Cooper that way and found on TBAR that way..

So, why did Carr get it wrong,,, because he conflated the meaning of the term "bundle". 

 

You still refuse to admit that statement was wrong...  until you admit it, you just don't get it.

 

I am not defining the terms, I am clarifying them..

 

You were pushing the same line Carr had above,,, the 3 TBAR groups of bills were each random counts..  it made no sense. How did money go to Cooper in groups of 100's, get randomized by the bank employee and then get into groups of 100 of bills again on TBAR in the same order given to Cooper? 

ANSWER, the bundles were randomized not the packets (groups of 100 bills)

You guys didn't get it then and you still don't,, you have spent years now attacking me for your own ignorance.

When I read Carr's error it made sense.

The answer was simple, they bank guy didn't randomize the groups of 100 bills (packets) as you and Carr claimed, he randomized and rubber banded the bundles, the groups of packets. 

You and Carr had conflated the meaning of the term bundle.

The words themselves are irrelevant, the problem is the meanings and their interpretations. 

 

Now you are using your own misunderstanding to reject evidence that suggests the TBAR money likely arrived as one single rubber banded bundle.

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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So the comment “Mark your maps” is also anecdotal? Seems that the idea that Rat said “Mark your maps” or something similar and then Sonderlind looked up at the clock and noted the exact time of the jump is also anecdotal with no substance behind it. 

Regarding the timing, the oscillations and the pressure bump are two different events. The oscillations preceded the pressure bump. The pressure bump is not mentioned in any 302s except where it is confused with the oscillations. This confusion exists to this day. The time of the oscillations is recorded between 8:10 and 8:12 but the time of the pressure bump - the moment Cooper jumped - is unknown. Between Rat’s later statements that it happened 10 to 15 minutes after last contact and Anderson’s statements that the crew waited to report the pressure bump, it seems possible that the jump was later than the generally accepted 8:13. 

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(edited)
31 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

So the comment “Mark your maps” is also anecdotal? Seems that the idea that Rat said “Mark your maps” or something similar and then Sonderlind looked up at the clock and noted the exact time of the jump is also anecdotal with no substance behind it. 

Regarding the timing, the oscillations and the pressure bump are two different events. The oscillations preceded the pressure bump. The pressure bump is not mentioned in any 302s except where it is confused with the oscillations. This confusion exists to this day. The time of the oscillations is recorded between 8:10 and 8:12 but the time of the pressure bump - the moment Cooper jumped - is unknown. Between Rat’s later statements that it happened 10 to 15 minutes after last contact and Anderson’s statements that the crew waited to report the pressure bump, it seems possible that the jump was later than the generally accepted 8:13. 

The FBI may have Rats "mark your maps" info,, we have a fraction of the files.

 

After 8:13 is possible.. 8:15 is max..

IMO, the "pressure bump" was caused by the first oscillation up. The stairs had max thrust upward from Cooper's weight leaving then diminishing oscillations up and down until achieving an equilibrium. Cooper's jump initiated the oscillations.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Georger, you are moving the goalposts and dodging with false arguments..

 

You still can't admit that Carr was wrong in that statement and you pushed the same false narrative for a decade. It is your version of the Western Flight Path and Placard drift...  LET IT GO.

Paper vs rubber bands is irrelevant.. The evidence supports paper but it doesn't change the conclusion. The packets of bills were still in 100's.

The evidence supports the money going to Cooper in 100 bill count packets.. those packets were rubber banded in random counts into bundles..

Do you disagree?

A strap is paper and 100 bills.

Ralph Himmelsbach “There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.”

at 6:35 of video…

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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21 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

There are numbers on the Amboy chute, but no one yet has been able to figure out what they mean. 

Is there a picture of that? Like any parachute, that's likely a data panel that would list manufacturer, model number, date of manufacture, size, serial number. Some old rounds also had numbers at each line attachment point noting which gore or panel it was. Those would be single or double digit numbers. Those would be manufacture or repair reference points as to location on the canopy.

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