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quade

DB Cooper

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REPLY> good work.



Well, actually hardly - that was just one of the first posts that came up in a search, so I left it there. I've now looked at a few more (by no means all of them). It is interesting to note that in a number of them Jo accuses the FBI of a cover-up. In one, she even says that she had asked the FBI "many times" about the commutation and they told her it didn't mean anything. Hmmm... seems they were ... RIGHT! Now, I wonder who owes who an apology...?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper? .



And there is your problem right there. If you don't even realise what you are asking when you say that, you will never accept anything and never find peace.

btw, if Cook etc came onto dz.com I would indeed be asking them any and all questions that appear to be the result of logical inconsistencies, fanciful interpretation, leaps of logic, "unproveable" conspiracy theories and so on.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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REPLY> good work.



Well, actually hardly - that was just one of the first posts that came up in a search, so I left it there. I've now looked at a few more (by no means all of them). It is interesting to note that in a number of them Jo accuses the FBI of a cover-up. In one, she even says that she had asked the FBI "many times" about the commutation and they told her it didn't mean anything. Hmmm... seems they were ... RIGHT! Now, I wonder who owes who an apology...?



REPLY> Agree. I wonder if Duane would have persued this as much as Jo has. Jo has her own
agenda.

Thanks -

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Jo, georger, Orange1, et. Al.,

Please stop it. PLEASE!

We aren’t making any progress sniping at each other. There is too much talent here to waste on this crap.

Jo,

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Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper?



There is no such thing as proving a negative hypothesis. You may hypothesize that Duane WAS D B Cooper, and you may be able to prove that he WAS D B Cooper. To do so, you need facts. I could ask you to prove that I am NOT Galen Cook, how could you do that?



Orange1,

[Quote] btw, if Cook etc came onto dz.com I would indeed be asking them any and all questions that appear to be the result of logical inconsistencies, fanciful interpretation, leaps of logic, "un-provable" conspiracy theories and so on.

So, how do you know Galen Cook is NOT a poster on this board, can you prove it? Have you ever thought that I might be Galen Cook? You want to ask me about my suspect and check my facts?



[b ]Georger,
Quote

Agree. I wonder if Duane would have persued this as much as Jo has. Jo has her own agenda.



Okay, let’s assume Duane was NOT D B Cooper, but wanted to prove to this board that he was. How would he do that? Show you the plane ticket, tell us about something Tina did that hasn’t been made public? Provided DNA that matched the tie? No, he wouldn’t have any of that. So this board would not believe him, just like it doesn’t believe Jo.

Now assume that he WAS D B Cooper and wanted to prove that he WAS. Why would he do that? He wouldn’t want to prove (himself) that he was, nor would he want anyone else to prove he was. He would see to it that all “PROVABLE aspects” of the case were destroyed. So, does the fact that Jo doesn’t have provable aspects evidence necessarily mean that Duane wasn’t Cooper? Of course not. Does it mean Duane WAS Cooper? Again, of course not.



So, we aren’t going to get very far toward proving that Duane was or wasn’t D B Cooper, or that anyone else was or wasn’t D B Cooper unless we can develop some “secondary leads.” The money find was an excellent “secondary lead” but it happened 29 years ago and we have missed our chance to use modern forensic techniques on it (I know that is debatable, but we’ll discuss that later). When the parachute was found in Amboy last March, no one was carping at each other. We thought that we had found (at last) a secondary lead that we could examine forensically and maybe make some progress. But it wasn’t so.

Here are some thoughts that might stimulate the group to move away from the “Jo is obsessed,” the “FBI is hiding something,” the “Galen Cook just wants to sell books” kind of discussions and onto something that the FBI (Remember them? They are the only “REAL” investigators here) could use to crack this 37.7 year old case.

Here goes:
Ckret pay attention, this is going to ultimately land in your lap!


If I were Cooper (and sometimes I think I am :)
If I were on the search team, I would be looking for a man (dead or severely injured), a parachute, any “out-of-place object” (shoe, briefcase, bag, parachute, etc.), and evidence that something had been buried. If my search took me to a cemetery and I saw evidence that something had been recently buried, I would look at it. Seeing it was a fresh grave, or looked like a fresh grave, I’d pass it up (out of respect). Did the FBI, partially exhume all the new the gravesites in the Lake Merwin search area? The same type sites in the Orchard/Dollar Corner area?



For the experienced pilots out there. What does lowering the wheels on a 737 do (in terms of flight characteristics) that going to 30 deg. flaps (as opposed to 15 deg. flaps) DOESN’T do. (ie. Why did Cooper want the wheels down and 15 degrees instead of wheels up and 30 deg?) Remember: Thrust>; DragThis could be big!



Why are there so many official (FBI only) composite sketches? When was each one released? What stimulated the release of each? How did the composite published impact the investigation?



As you can see, I’m still on the “something simple that was missed kick.”

I respect and enjoy communicating with ALL of you. Please, work with me (or at least tolerate me).

Sluggo_Monster

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Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper? -

REPLY> I can. Duane didnt have the brains or the guts to be Cooper. Neither you or Duane have
been a couple of saints. Just a couple of lost souls
seeking attention and meaning in a hard world.

But, you and others have opened the door to the
whole psychological side of this case. There is one
option we have to consider, as follows.

In the mid 1970s a man walked into my office, sat
down, and began his personal interview with me
after weeks of being evaluated by staff at our facility. I opened this man's file and began reading and noted his credentials which included time in something called Project Skyhook (a program involving high altitude baloons and high altitude research including parachuting from high altitude baloons - a program conducted by the US Army Air Corps in tandem with the aviation industry.

Our conversation came around to Project Skyhook
itself. Later documentation proved this man had
in fact been intimately involved in several facets
of Project Skyhook including several other high
altitude parachute programs. Just to relieve stress during this interview I finally leaned back in my chair and asked this individual: "What is it like to parachute from one of these hi altitude baloons?". The man lowered his head and laughed and said,
"you could ask DB Cooper".

I took this to mean the man wanted to stop the
interview and was diverting the conversation. I mean it was a Friday afternoon, the clients and staff had had a full week, and we all needed a break. I closed the man's file and said, "OK. I understand. It's ok.
I know you want to get back to the dorm . . . "

Prior to this moment and a few letters from my grandmother at Vancouver WA, DB Cooper was the last thing on my mind. I kept waiting for my client to begin getting out of his chair, I asked him if he needed assistance getting back to the dorm, and
he replied softly "no", and with no movement on my client's part I finally said, "are you ok?", and my client responded "They just don't understand.
"And you dont understand either, God damnit!"

I called an orderly in for assistance. With the orderly
standing at this man's side and me now sitting on my desk close to this man, the orderly and I listened
as the man explained his situation.

He began by saying 'we are all alike, high
altitude and high risk parachuters, DB Cooper,
and other high risk takers - it is in the risk
of the enterprise itself that satisfaction is drawn
and survival is secondary.

He explained that DB Cooper and people like him
(and himself) never intend to survive and may not want to, and the money was irrelevant once it had been obtained, because the enterprise of hijacking
itself is complete just as going up high and jumping
is complete in itself.

That if Cooper dd not die in the jump he very
likely committed suicide on the ground because
(a) "nothing in life could ever equal the experience
of the hijacking again, and (b) it is the hijacking
that is complete and sufficient in istelf, and (c)
only a few special people get to chose how they
will leave this world (everybody else must die by
ordinary means)".

My client explained to us there is a basic fatalism
in high risk activity and this was why DB Cooper
had done what he did, and why he probably would never be found. Because this was his original plan.

"How else do you become a legend", my client asked.

[I am not offering this as an explanation for DB
Cooper. I am saying this is how one of my clients
who had experience with high risk takers explained
DB Cooper. It was my client's belief it was Cooper's
intent not to survive and exit this world on his own terms, if he could. This may be a missing link...]

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**** quade Flag ****

georger,


Are you trying to get the thread shut down?

I am of the belief that a PA on Jo’s deceased husband is a personal attack on Jo. And, your un-requested evaluation of her moral character is uncalled for.

PLEASE apologize and DO NOT get this board shut down. Do this crap by e-mail or something.

Sluggo_Monster

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I called an orderly in for assistance. With the orderly
standing at this man's side and me now sitting on my desk close to this man, the orderly and I listened as the man explained his situation.

I believe you have misled us as to your profession. Note "orderly" - I do not know many professions that use an orderly - other than correctional institutes, hospitals, mental facilities and nursing home. Someone else can finish that list.


Quote

Quote

survival is secondary.


This is precisely the state of mind I have explained Duane was experiencing in 1971. He did not expect to survive and when he did he wanted to live - and so he did constantly looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life...he got a second chance to live his life the way his parents wanted him to. Items taken from the hidden wallet and little that remained of his past - the obituaries for his parents and a picture of place in CA. along with the name of an individual written on the back. Duane's brother located that place and told me where and what it was - (Don't even ask me for that information).



Quote

Quote

He explained that DB Cooper and people like him
(and himself) never intend to survive and may not want to.


How many time have I said this about Duane - but note that the man said
Quote

May Not

because until you have done it and survived you will not be able to answer that question.



Quote

Quote

That if Cooper did not die in the jump he very
likely committed suicide on the ground


Very Likely unless he found himself in his survival - Which is exactly what Duane did or "client"
managed to accomplish.



Quote

Quote

a few special people get to chose how they will leave this world (everybody else must die by ordinary means)".

He was able to make that choice one more time 11 days before he died. How difficult would it be for anyone on this forum to make the same decision Duane did? He made that decision against my wishes, the Dr.s and the staff...he felt he had paid his penance and it was time to go - his reward was a phone call and pictures from his brother he had not seen or spoke to since the early 50's before his parents died....why do people wait that long to make amends?



Quote

Quote

My client explained to us there is a basic fatalism in high risk activity and this was why DB Cooper had done what he did, and why he probably would never be found. Because this was his original plan. "How else do you become a legend", my client asked.


Why weren't you on the phone contacting the FBI?



Quote

Quote

I am not offering this as an explanation for DB Cooper. I am saying this is how one of my clients who had experience with high risk takers explained DB Cooper. It was my client's belief it was Cooper's intent not to survive and exit this world on his own terms, if he could. This may be a missing link...


We all realize that you could have made that up, and if it really happened - WHY didn't you call the FBI and what kind of position did you work in that meant you had to maintain the confidentiality with that client. Sounds more like a Doctor - Patient relationship or that of a preacher or priest
counseling one bearing his soul and asking forgiveness
.


As for the writers - we can speculate that they or someone they have hired might be one of us or lofting here for information.
I would think it very probable.

I am not offended by the posts made by others - infact some posts meant to deter me only enforced everything I have said. Just call me Dr. or Nurse Edwards.

:)
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Theory vs fact.

There were other hijackers who (1) lived and (2) hid the money.

The analysis of the mindset of other captured hijackers is probably more relevant.



If 3 were involved it would be over by now - the only secrets kept for a life time are usually between spouses or thru an enforcible fiduciary relationships. That brings the covert right back into the picture and maybe certain "client" relationships similar to the relationship Georger had with his "client".

Considering all the information we have out here - and considering all the media attention the Cooper case has had since 2000 and the multiple suspects - it was probable that one piece of evidence would eventually surface - such as the conversation Georger had with his Client.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper? -

REPLY> I can. Duane didnt have the brains or the guts to be Cooper. Neither you or Duane have
been a couple of saints. Just a couple of lost souls
seeking attention and meaning in a hard world.

But, you and others have opened the door to the
whole psychological side of this case. There is one
option we have to consider, as follows.

In the mid 1970s a man walked into my office, sat
down, and began his personal interview with me
after weeks of being evaluated by staff at our facility. I opened this man's file and began reading and noted his credentials which included time in something called Project Skyhook (a program involving high altitude baloons and high altitude research including parachuting from high altitude baloons - a program conducted by the US Army Air Corps in tandem with the aviation industry.

Our conversation came around to Project Skyhook
itself. Later documentation proved this man had
in fact been intimately involved in several facets
of Project Skyhook including several other high
altitude parachute programs. Just to relieve stress during this interview I finally leaned back in my chair and asked this individual: "What is it like to parachute from one of these hi altitude baloons?". The man lowered his head and laughed and said,
"you could ask DB Cooper".

I took this to mean the man wanted to stop the
interview and was diverting the conversation. I mean it was a Friday afternoon, the clients and staff had had a full week, and we all needed a break. I closed the man's file and said, "OK. I understand. It's ok.
I know you want to get back to the dorm . . . "

Prior to this moment and a few letters from my grandmother at Vancouver WA, DB Cooper was the last thing on my mind. I kept waiting for my client to begin getting out of his chair, I asked him if he needed assistance getting back to the dorm, and
he replied softly "no", and with no movement on my client's part I finally said, "are you ok?", and my client responded "They just don't understand.
"And you dont understand either, God damnit!"

I called an orderly in for assistance. With the orderly
standing at this man's side and me now sitting on my desk close to this man, the orderly and I listened
as the man explained his situation.

He began by saying 'we are all alike, high
altitude and high risk parachuters, DB Cooper,
and other high risk takers - it is in the risk
of the enterprise itself that satisfaction is drawn
and survival is secondary.

He explained that DB Cooper and people like him
(and himself) never intend to survive and may not want to, and the money was irrelevant once it had been obtained, because the enterprise of hijacking
itself is complete just as going up high and jumping
is complete in itself.

That if Cooper dd not die in the jump he very
likely committed suicide on the ground because
(a) "nothing in life could ever equal the experience
of the hijacking again, and (b) it is the hijacking
that is complete and sufficient in istelf, and (c)
only a few special people get to chose how they
will leave this world (everybody else must die by
ordinary means)".

My client explained to us there is a basic fatalism
in high risk activity and this was why DB Cooper
had done what he did, and why he probably would never be found. Because this was his original plan.

"How else do you become a legend", my client asked.

[I am not offering this as an explanation for DB
Cooper. I am saying this is how one of my clients
who had experience with high risk takers explained
DB Cooper. It was my client's belief it was Cooper's
intent not to survive and exit this world on his own terms, if he could. This may be a missing link...]




REPLY TO MY OWN: How did this all get underlined?
I didnt do this. I just typed.

Georger

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**** quade Flag ****

georger,


Are you trying to get the thread shut down?

I am of the belief that a PA on Jo’s deceased husband is a personal attack on Jo. And, your un-requested evaluation of her moral character is uncalled for.

PLEASE apologize and DO NOT get this board shut down. Do this crap by e-mail or something.

Sluggo_Monster




REPLY> Where is the personal attack? I fail to see
it. I made no moral judgements beyond what many others have already made.. Just stated my opinion. You are the one making moral judgements, against
me!

You have me (AND OTHERS!) at a total loss here.
Please explain.

Thanks,
George

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I called an orderly in for assistance. With the orderly
standing at this man's side and me now sitting on my desk close to this man, the orderly and I listened as the man explained his situation.

I believe you have misled us as to your profession.

REPLY> I havent mislead anybody. Ive just had a life, like everyone else here. I even washed pots and pans in college to get by. Does that make me a liar? If I said aluminum pans and iron pans need
separate washing, would that make me a liar? If
I said I had a wooden leg would that make me a liar? I dont have a wooden leg, I dont want this
forum shut down, and I apologise to you for any abuse or slight, real or intended.

George

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Theory vs fact.

There were other hijackers who (1) lived and (2) hid the money.

REPLY> I know.

The analysis of the mindset of other captured hijackers is probably more relevant.



REPLY> My client was not a hijacker, so far as I
ever knew. I had to wonder however, if he had
some insight. This lead to a number of discussions
between staff and some research.

One of the reasons I finally presented this here is
because, as Sluggo points out, we have some very experienced people here who might be able to identify with or disclaim part or all of what my client said.

I didnt present this here for sensationalism!

What made my client's remarks have some credibility was his documented background in
physics and his long tenure with the US military
and high altitude projects which involved parachuting
and other high risk activities.

I mean we are supposed to be looking for missing links here. Which rocks will we turn over and which will
we not turn over, and who shall decide?

I mean we could focus on Cemetary graves in the Orchards WA area or we could look into high risk motivations which may overlap with the decision to skyjack - or we could look at many things as we
have been.

Thanks.

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REPLY TO MY OWN: How did this all get underlined?
I didnt do this. I just typed.

Georger



In your original "underlined" post, it looks like you tried to copy and paste the question "Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper?". After that is the markup code for an underline start and there is never a markup code for an underline stop. So the underlining just continues.

Computers can be very frustrating sometimes because they do EXACTLY what you tell them to do. ;)
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Wow...anyone thought about doing a brief on the sum total of these posts so its comprehensible?



Sure, here goes:

Nobody knows who Cooper is/was or even exactly where he jumped.

We engage in endless speculation about the forgoing.

Jo Weber thinks her late husband Duane was Cooper, but most on the forum disagree.

Quade is the adult in charge of the forum and raps our knuckles when we get mean to each other.

Ckret is a real FBI agent and wants to solve the case with our help. Cooper is almost a hobby for him pursued only in spare moments. His day job involves catching bank robbers.

We get off topic sometimes. We squabble too...but there is a base of mutual respect and collegiality.

There. I just saved you a LOT of reading.

37.7
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Wow...anyone thought about doing a brief on the sum total of these posts so its comprehensible?



Sure, here goes:

Nobody knows who Cooper is/was or even exactly where he jumped.

We engage in endless speculation about the forgoing.

Jo Weber thinks her late husband Duane was Cooper, but most on the forum disagree.

Quade is the adult in charge of the forum and raps our knuckles when we get mean to each other.

Ckret is a real FBI agent and wants to solve the case with our help. Cooper is almost a hobby for him pursued only in spare moments. His day job involves catching bank robbers.

We get off topic sometimes. We squabble too...but there is a base of mutual respect and collegiality.

There. I just saved you a LOT of reading.

37.7



Nicely done!
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Wow...anyone thought about doing a brief on the sum total of these posts so its comprehensible?



Sure, here goes:

Nobody knows who Cooper is/was or even exactly where he jumped.

We engage in endless speculation about the forgoing.

Jo Weber thinks her late husband Duane was Cooper, but most on the forum disagree.

Quade is the adult in charge of the forum and raps our knuckles when we get mean to each other.

Ckret is a real FBI agent and wants to solve the case with our help. Cooper is almost a hobby for him pursued only in spare moments. His day job involves catching bank robbers.

We get off topic sometimes. We squabble too...but there is a base of mutual respect and collegiality.

There. I just saved you a LOT of reading.

37.7



REPLY! Brilliant.

Geoger

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REPLY TO MY OWN: How did this all get underlined?
I didnt do this. I just typed.

Georger



In your original "underlined" post, it looks like you tried to copy and paste the question "Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper?". After that is the markup code for an underline start and there is never a markup code for an underline stop. So the underlining just continues.

Computers can be very frustrating sometimes because they do EXACTLY what you tell them to do. ;)


REPLY> Thanks Quade.

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For the experienced pilots out there. What does lowering the wheels on a 737 do (in terms of flight characteristics) that going to 30 deg. flaps (as opposed to 15 deg. flaps) DOESN’T do. (ie. Why did Cooper want the wheels down and 15 degrees instead of wheels up and 30 deg?) Remember: Thrust>; Drag<; Lift^; Gravity [Down] This could be big!

REP: and, how does wheel wash affect parachuting? (if at all)

G.

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georger

Your question is a good one and related to my question. But, I want “experienced pilots” to respond to my question (in its simplicity) just as I asked it. The question applies to “the flight characteristics of the aircraft,” not to the effect on the jumper.

I'm not trying to be coy. In an attempt to destroy my own argument (about Cooper’s knowledge level) I happened on something that strengthens it. I want confirmation from “experienced pilots” before I take everybody down another “dead end.”

Since the wheels (landing gear) were down, there might have been some effect on the jump. “Experienced jumpers” could answer that. (Are there any experienced jumpers that still read this thread? ;)) But that's another issue.

Sluggo_Monster


PS: I just noticed in the original post, I said; "737." I (of course) meant 727.

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So, how do you know Galen Cook is NOT a poster on this board, can you prove it? Have you ever thought that I might be Galen Cook? You want to ask me about my suspect and check my facts?



I don't make a habit of asking every poster on the board who their suspects are and why they think so... but to those who volunteer the info, I will respond (like the brenda/mayfield stuff in the old thread). If you were to put forward a suspect, I wouldn't really care if you were Cook, Jo, Sluggo, Ckret or whoever... I would be more interested in how the suspect stands up to the facts of the case as we know them. In this instance (Jo) I am caught between the duality of someone who I think is on a wild goose chase and could do with some peace in her life, and the feeling that the constant manouevring of the debate back towards Duane that she does is distracting from some of the other good stuff being done here.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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The references for all this are online, or noted inline.

* Rod Serling (December 25, 1924-June 28, 1975, so 46 in 1971), one of television's most prolific writers, is best known for his science fiction television series, The Twilight Zone. He believed that the role of the writer was to "menace the public conscience." Throughout his life Serling used radio, television, and film as "vehicles of social criticism."
* Joined the United States Army on January 16th, 1943
* Was a paratrooper and served in the 511th Parachute Infantry Regiment in the Pacific theater
* Demolition specialist. Removed thousands of pounds of dynamite from elaborate underground tunnels constructed by the Japanese
* Returned home from active duty January 13th, 1946 with the following decorations:
o Purple Heart
o Asiatic Pacific Theater Medal [w/battle star]
o Philippines Liberation Medal [w/battle star]
o American Campaign Medal
o National Defense Medal
o Overseas Service Bar
* After WWII, he tested experimental parachutes for the U.S. Army at $500 per jump

A life-long chain smoker, Serling often smoked as many as five or more packs of cigarettes a day

In 1975, Serling had two severe heart attacks before entering Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester for heart bypass surgery. He had a third heart attack during the operation and died the following day, at the age of 50

Wrote the script for "The Doomsday Flight", a 1966 TV movie. A bomb on board an airliner has an altitude-sensitive trigger. Unless a ransom is paid, it will explode when the plane descends to land.
The FAA wrote a letter to 500 TV stations on June 30, 1971 urging them not to show the movie, because they were getting people doing copycats of it, every time it was shown. For instance it was shown in Canada on July 26, 1971, and on Aug 3. a British 747 was diverted to Denver from it's Montreal/London flight, due to a phone-in bomb threat. No bomb was found.

As part of research for a drama on NBCs "Chrysler Theater", Serling jumped again after 19 years, in April, 1964 (static line jump). Script initially called "A Certain Sky Revisited". Shown as "Exit From a Plane Flight". Storyline: Ex-paratrooper Quinton Morrow, now a movie star, returns to an Army base to make a parachute jump for publicity. First aired Jan 22, 1965.

On November 18, 1971, Rod Serling gave a talk at Chaffey College, in Alta Loma, CA. This was 6 days before the Cooper hijack.

Serling spoke out against the Vietnam War.

In 1968, Serling, was a member of Dissenting Democrats of California, a group that supported Sen. Eugene McCarthy's bid for the party's presidential nomination. Serling was living in Pacific Palisades, California. His next-door neighbors, oddly enough, were Ron and Nancy Reagan.

Fatalism, from his last interview (1975)
http://www.rodserling.com/brevelleint.htm

"Brevelle: You told a story in class (ed. note: Sherman Oaks Experimental College, Hollywood) about a near-fatal experience you had in the Philippines during the war. A Japanese soldier aimed his gun at you, you knew he would get off a clean shot and kill you. He couldn't miss, there was nothing you could do to avoid being a perfect target. As you stood frozen in time, unable to move, a fellow G.I. shot the enemy soldier over your shoulder...

Serling: That incident, yeah. Well, that was sort of symptomatic of the way I was. Fatalist, you know. About everything. And I survived through no dint of my own courage; it was just somebody up there."

He revisited his high school for a commencement speech in 1968, which is great reading even now.
http://www.rodserling.com/01281968.htm
He seemingly betrays a taste for bourbon in the first paragraph:
Graduates, ladies and gentlemen, faculty, friends and old acquaintances—unless you've reached my age and are as familiar with the taste of Serutan as you are with bourbon,...."
What doesn't fit, is that Serling was small. 5'4", 140 lbs? But apparently was a boxer at one point.

some photos attached.

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