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DB Cooper

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He may be right. DBC could have been a Whuffo.

Still, there are clues that he was aviation savvy. He gave very specific commands about flap angle, altitude, airspeed gear configuration and pressurization. Most Whuffos dont know a flap from an elevator or spoiler. Most Whuffos wouldn't think about exit speeds. Most whuffos wouldnt think about flying depressurized.

I still think DBC KNEW a 727 could be jumped.

377



Ckret might reply: 'knew just enough to get into
trouble'. And some of this socalled 'knowledge' can be
formed just sitting in an airport lounge watching the
727 land, rear stairs come down, and drawn up.

Cooper's manual: the Gilbert Hijacking Set ?????

The particles on the tie and some other specific
evidence is a little more difficult to dismiss or do a
work-around.

Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.

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Oh my, pop back in to say a (belated) happy new year and to see if the case has been solved yet (apparently not) and find I am a subject of discussion :$

Bruce, I would never chuck you put sans chute. However, I would probably take delight in the terrified-first-jumper expression on your face :).

Hope everyone is well. I've obviously been gone a long time - just skipped to last page which was literally hundreds and hundreds on from where it took me to "first unread" so I have no idea what's been going on, but see the old faithfuls still around :)
Fwiw I agree with 377 that Cooper knew a 727 could be jumped. And I still like my theory that Cooper had military experience of some sort overseas, and disappeared back somewhere - Asia or central Africa -where either the US military and/or the CiA had been active, and where dollar bills could easily be put into circulation without the serial number being checked. Sheridan could fit that bill, but so could (I speculate) plenty others we haven't even heard of. Have there been any other new potential suspects named here?

For those interested, life is good here on the southern tip. Baby O is now 4 and has started early at school, having been assessed with the math skills of an 8-year old...she's reading easily, and is a delight. Perhaps she will solve the Cooper case in a few years' time ;) though right now she is more interested in when we will visit Disneyland. The rest of the family is well.



WELCOME HOME!

:)

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So good to hear from you Orange! We know whose quant genes Baby O inherited. Sounds like one very smart kid.

Big data crunching is the rage these days. I wonder if it could be used to find suspects that have thus far escaped attention?

I'll bet Snow is already working on it.

Stick around Orange. Its a sunnier place with you here.
And E. Vicki, give us a shout. Hang out with your friends here.

We seem to have entered a peaceful collegial period here. Lets hope it endures.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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G wrote
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Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.



I know. I just dont like it. I want Cooper to be a mad skills jumper, not a friggin Whuffo.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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G wrote

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Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.



I know. I just dont like it. I want Cooper to be a mad skills jumper, not a friggin Whuffo.

377



Thanks for the nice welcome back, Georger and 377!

Re above quotes - can you briefly fill me in on farf's baseline?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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G wrote

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Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.



I know. I just dont like it. I want Cooper to be a mad skills jumper, not a friggin Whuffo.

377



Thanks for the nice welcome back, Georger and 377!

Re above quotes - can you briefly fill me in on farf's baseline?



You are more than welcome.

377 can (and should) add his take on Farf's Law.

Farf compared other hijackings to Cooper's and
concluded that nothing really stood out as special,
or is required as being special, about Cooper's
hijacking.

That the Cooper hijacking must be viewed as on
a par with the other hijackings which occurred within
the same period, in the same region.

No special skills or knowledge required.

I *hope* this is a fair statement of Farf's baseline
principle.

Now for you in particular: that the Cooper hijacking
and all other hijackings, all fit statistically, in their
details. (including details such as loss of money
during the bailout, etc...) Except that Cooper was not
caught while all the others were.

Is this your understanding 377 ?

Where is Farflung ?

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The jumps in SE Asia were not exactly the same as Cooper's (stairs appear to have been removed) but they conveyed a lot of info about the practicality of jumping from a 727. You still needed to know that the door could be opened and the stairs deployed in flight. My guess is that Boeing had this additional info as a result of their flight tests.

377



While Farflung's famous video does appear to have the 727's rear stairs removed, if that was the usual case how did Cooper know that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight and that the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked? Maybe Cooper observed such operations.

Presumably, the 727 could be pressurized by just closing the door at the rear of the pressure hull even if the rear stairs were not on the aircraft. And then the aircraft could climb to a higher altitude for better range, etc..

Also, give some thought as to how and why the 727 aircraft got involved in such operations in the first place? There were plenty of military aircraft that could perform any mission that was assigned to the 727. Except, of course, look like a 727 civilian airliner.

And I'll bet it wasn't Boeing that paid for the redesign of the rear stairs or for the flight tests to check everything out.

Robert99

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G wrote

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Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377



There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life. Throwing a pilot chute at the planet at some point in the jump usually is a good start at saving your own life.

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So, being curious by the MACVSOG/Advisor idea. I asked a former MACVSOG Soldier could one be "In Viet Nam" and not be?

His answer; "Yes" and he showed me a set of order showing him in the I Corp, as he showed me a picture in a photo album as part of a wedding party. Two locations, at one time, no leave forms or travel orders, just an assignment posting and a picture.

Today with the tech that may be a bit harder to pull off with out help.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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G wrote

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Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377



There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life. Throwing a pilot chute at the planet at some point in the jump usually is a good start at saving your own life.



I want proof Cooper did that!
:D

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Robt 99 wrote
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And I'll bet it wasn't Boeing that paid for the redesign of the rear stairs or for the flight tests to check everything out.

Robert99



I bet you are 100% right Robert and there is precedent for such mods to be paid for by the govt.

Pan Am's passenger 747s were outfitted with heavy duty freighter floors at the request of the US govt who subsidized them heavily. The govt paid for the mods and gave Pan Am a profitable yearly subsidy to compensate for the higher weight and extra fuel burn.
The military wanted reserve airlift capacity in case of an emergency and this was a cheap way to get it.

The unsubstantiated rumors about the 727 being made (or tested to be) jumpable was that civil airliners are routinely given overflight permission above hostile countries such as Cuba, Iran etc. The rumor was that 727s could drop people or payloads covertly while appearing to be regular airline flights.

I still think Ted Braden (MACV SOG soldier and deserter) hasn't been ruled out conclusively. He had the skills and financial motive. He was apparently much more of a sociopath type than Sheridan Peterson. He must have had some dirt on someone to get basically a free pass for desertion during a war. Might it have been enough to get a free pass on Norjack? I doubt it but I can't rule it out.

Orange, Farflung just reminded all us Cooper romantics that a Whuffo could have made the jump. He has several examples of skyjackers who made their first jump from an airliner and landed alive.

I can't attack Farf's facts but I do think Cooper's flight configuration demands to the crew and his alleged easy donning of the NB 8 (or NB 6, still some controversy about this) rig say he was no Whuffo.

I bought a stock military packed NB 8 rig to the Cooper Symposium in Portland. No skydiving mods, just a bailout rig. TSA at SFO: "Sir, why are you carrying a parachute on this flight?" 377: "I'm taking it to a skyjacking convention in Portland."

I picked a non jumper from the audience and asked him to put the NB8 rig on. He spent many minutes and couldnt do it until I showed him how. The NB 6 and 8 have a very confusing chest strap arrangement that even had me stumped the first time I tried to put one on. It clips the apexes of two V webbing straps together to form a chest strap. It is far different from the belt type chest strap arrangement on a B 12 or other miltary bailout rig.

To be balanced, Ralph Himmelsbach told me that there is nothing to substantiate the account that Cooper donned the rig with ease or that Cooper examined the packing card. I thank Jerry Thomas for vouching for me to Ralph, who was friendly and cooperative.

I asked non jumper volunteers to find the packing card on the NB 8 and nobody succeeded. It is quite well hidden. Whuffos dont even know what a packing card is. Had Cooper VERIFIABLY pulled the packing cards it would rule him out as a Whuffo IMO.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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G wrote

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Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377



There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life. Throwing a pilot chute at the planet at some point in the jump usually is a good start at saving your own life.



I want proof Cooper did that!
:D



Don't we all.;)

7:28 in the video:ph34r::ph34r:

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Amazon wrote:
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There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life.



Not necessarily. AADs have delivered jumpers to the ground alive who did nothing after exiting the plane. Maybe the "something" was buying and arming their AAD.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Amazon wrote:

Quote

There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life.



No necessarily. AADs have delivered jumpers to the ground alive who did nothing after exiting the plane. Maybe the "something" was buying and arming their AAD. .

377



Yup... but anyone who has had an AAD fire because they did not attempt to do anything had better thank their luck that someone had the presence of mind to turn it on. Loss of altitude awareness used to be a death sentence. Remember these guys???? Then again. if some moron relies on an AAD to do the important stuff in a skydive... they need to take up GOLF.. :S

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Jo insisted to me that 727s were used for air drops in SE Asia. I was sure she was mistaken but started researching and found extensive documentation verifying Jo's claim. Snow dug even deeper.

Jo, how did you know? Was it a guess? Did someone tell you? If so who? What exactly did they tell you if you can recall?

377




I will explain this ONE last time:

Duane and I were watching a program on TV. This program showed the 727 or a forerunner being jump and Duane made a unforgettable comment. His specfic words are lost to me now.

He did talk about JM Wave to me and that they used the 727's or another plane that could be jumped in this way. I now forget exactly what he said. I have had a really bad day - health wise.

At another time earlier in our marriage on a trip to FL. he talked about the 2 planes that JMWave used. He even showed me the building JMWave housed their operation out of. I just thought it was history, but he used the word WE in this discussion. Right now I do not even remember the location, but it was the same trip he made the stop at that night club where he disappeared for a while and knew the owner - asking for him by name. I was NOT introduced to the man.

You will need to find some of my earlier posts about this. The medication has me all messed up right now.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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I picked a non jumper from the audience and asked him to put the NB8 rig on. He spent many minutes and couldnt do it until I showed him how. The NB 6 and 8 have a very confusing chest strap arrangement that even had me stumped the first time I tried to put one on. It clips the apexes of two V webbing straps together to form a chest strap. It is far different from the belt type chest strap arrangement on a B 12 or other miltary bailout rig.

To be balanced, Ralph Himmelsbach told me that there is nothing to substantiate the account that Cooper donned the rig with ease or that Cooper examined the packing card. I thank Jerry Thomas for vouching for me to Ralph, who was friendly and cooperative.

I asked non jumper volunteers to find the packing card on the NB 8 and nobody succeeded. It is quite well hidden. Whuffos dont even know what a packing card is. Had Cooper VERIFIABLY pulled the packing cards it would rule him out as a Whuffo IMO.

377



Tosaw's book has the story, straight from Tina, starting on page 32, of how Cooper checked the packing card, checked the ripcord pins on the back, and put the parachute on.

I used to use an NB-6 routinely and I agree that you have to watch what you are doing when putting it on. Just getting the leg straps straightened out required attention.

The chest straps remind me of the later Security 150 and 250 model parachutes which I never liked for that reason. I much prefer the relatively high mounted chest strap type harness.

I imagine that the packing card for your NB-8 was on the container and several inches down from the top and between the container and back pad.

Robert99

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Jo insisted to me that 727s were used for air drops in SE Asia. I was sure she was mistaken but started researching and found extensive documentation verifying Jo's claim. Snow dug even deeper.

Jo, how did you know? Was it a guess? Did someone tell you? If so who? What exactly did they tell you if you can recall?

377




I will explain this ONE last time:

Duane and I were watching a program on TV. This program showed the 727 or a forerunner being jump and Duane made a unforgettable comment. His specfic words are lost to me now.

He did talk about JM Wave to me and that they used the 727's or another plane that could be jumped in this way. I now forget exactly what he said. I have had a really bad day - health wise.

At another time earlier in our marriage on a trip to FL. he talked about the 2 planes that JMWave used. He even showed me the building JMWave housed their operation out of. I just thought it was history, but he used the word WE in this discussion. Right now I do not even remember the location, but it was the same trip he made the stop at that night club where he disappeared for a while and knew the owner - asking for him by name. I was NOT introduced to the man.

You will need to find some of my earlier posts about this. The medication has me all messed up right now.



Jo, Check out the information on Wikipedia about JM Wave. It was set up in the early 1960s to support operations related to Cuba. And it got outed in the mid-1960s and was closed about 1968.

It is unlikely, in my humble opinion, that 727s would be overflying Cuba to drop equipment. Other aircraft would be more suitable for doing something like that, if indeed aircraft were necessary at all. For putting personnel ashore, a small boat would easily get the job done. Just keep in mind that Cuba is a relatively small island and not SE Asia.

I believe you have stated that you married Duane in the late 1970s long after JM Wave was closed and had considerable media attention. Maybe Duane just read the newspapers.

Robert99

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Jo, Check out the information on Wikipedia about JM Wave. It was set up in the early 1960s to support operations related to Cuba. And it got outed in the mid-1960s and was closed about 1968.

It is unlikely, in my humble opinion, that 727s would be overflying Cuba to drop equipment. Other aircraft would be more suitable for doing something like that, if indeed aircraft were necessary at all. For putting personnel ashore, a small boat would easily get the job done. Just keep in mind that Cuba is a relatively small island and not SE Asia.

I believe you have stated that you married Duane in the late 1970s long after JM Wave was closed and had considerable media attention. Maybe Duane just read the newspapers.

Robert99



:(The Plane:
NOT what I was trying to say.
I related a progam that was on TV sometime while we were living in the old house 1988 to 1995.
There was a program that showed the 727 testing and men jumping out of it (The clip was from the 60's) - exactly what SNOWMMAN has posted and SNOWMMAN found that clip because of what I said. 377 didn't believe me either - but Snowmman produced the PROOF!

:(JMWAVE:
I WAS NOT indicating that the 727 was used by JMWave - but they did buy a couple of the plane or their forerunner. Our trip to FLA was around 1982 to 1987 when Duane took me to where the JMWave USED to have their office. I WAS NOT indicating JMWAVE was still there. I was repeating things Duane told me from his past!

Since I knew NOTHING about JMWAVE back then all I was doing was reciting a story he told me.

AGAIN: You do NOT know my history and the things I have told and you lump everything together like it is part of ONE thing. I was trying to relate to you his personal connections from the past. Duane was supposedly in prison 1950 to 1958, but we ALL know he showed up in 1957 in ST.PETE.
Something the FBI conveniently forgot when Carr recounted Duane's criminal history.

1960 to 1962 - Duane was in Canon City. 1962 -1966 - is anyone's guess! He was off the radar during those yrs.and this has been verified......

This is WHAT I mean - you deliberately ATTACK everything I say and you DO not READ back for the reference.

I HAVE ASKED U NOT to REPLY to my POSTS and I am asking ONE more time. STOP!

U do NOT have a clue what is happening or what is going on in my life right now! The stress of having to reply to your STUPID elementary assumptions is more than I can tolerate at this time.
Key in the words JMWAVE and go back and READ the DETAILS of this previous discussion in the thread.

PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE! I don't feel well - I will answer simple questions like 377 asked and I usually go off into another memory that is related along the way....does NOT mean the two are related - but one memory triggers the other!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Robt. 99 wrote
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Tosaw's book has the story, straight from Tina, starting on page 32, of how Cooper checked the packing card, checked the ripcord pins on the back, and put the parachute on.



How I wish Tina could verify Tosaw's story about the packing card and pin check. If true it would be a huge clue. It would not tell us who Cooper is but we could eliminate suspects with no parachute familiarity. Robert is right about the packing card location. Very obscure. You'd have to know chutes to even know to look for a packing card and you'd have to be familiar with NB 6 or 8 rigs to go right to that location on the rig.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Robt. 99 wrote

Quote

Tosaw's book has the story, straight from Tina, starting on page 32, of how Cooper checked the packing card, checked the ripcord pins on the back, and put the parachute on.



How I wish Tina could verify Tosaw's story about the packing card and pin check. If true it would be a huge clue. It would not tell us who Cooper is but we could eliminate suspects with no parachute familiarity. Robert is right about the packing card location. Very obscure. You'd have to know chutes to even know to look for a packing card and you'd have to be familiar with NB 6 or 8 rigs to go right to that location on the rig.

377



Or he could have been a packer for smoke jumpers!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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One reason why it's tough for me to swallow the idea of Sheridan is because of how he has referred to being a Cooper suspect on social sites. He made a joke about it on one, and on another he says the FBI investigated him in 2002 and dismissed him. In that last one, he sounds almost exasperated that people somehow think he was Cooper.

If someone pulled off a crime as large as Cooper's, it's doubtful they would joke about it on a social site. McCoy got forty years. If the perp is still alive today, you have to figure that every time there is a knock at the door, this perp wonders whether his past has finally caught up to him somehow...and there are men in suits at the door.

For the REAL Cooper, it would not be the stuff of jokes or any kind of lightheartedness, especially if you were actually contacted by the FBI.

Another problem I have with Peterson is more obvious. The last time Cooper was seen, Mucklow said he was putting on the chute and tying something around his waist. Peterson, an expert skydiver, planned to jump from a jet moving at 175MPH or so in dress-type shoes and a suit? This is extremely unlikely, IMHO. There is also no hint, or any known testimony from the stews saying that Peterson even RESEMBLED Cooper. KC may not be the guy, but Schaffner did say this about him:

Quote

She zeroed in on the passport photo all blown up. She rubbed his features on the page. “The ears, the ears are right.” She moved to the lips. “Yes, thin lips. And the top lip, kind of like this, yes.” Then the forehead. “A wide forehead, yes.” Then the hair. “Receding, yes, the two areas—yes, yes—sort of like this.” She was pushing down on the photo hard now, rubbing the image like a charcoal drawing. “There was more hair, though.” The eyes. “About like that.” The eyebrows. “Yeah, about like that.” The images were closer in resemblance to Cooper than any of the suspects she’s ever seen, she said. But? “But I can’t say ‘Yay.’” We got up from the table. “I think you might be onto something here,” she said.



And this from Himmelsbach. Both quotes are from Gray's NYM article.

“Not bad,” he said. “Except for the hair.”

Quote

I then showed him Kenny’s discharge papers from the Army. He looked at Kenny’s height (five-eight), weight (150 pounds), and eye color (hazel), then pushed the papers back. “Well, he’s too short, not heavy enough, and has got the wrong color eyes.” I then told him about Kenny’s history: his service in the paratroops, and working for Northwest—as a purser, a flight attendant, a mechanic—and living near Sea-Tac, and his quiet mien. The old man lit up like somebody had plugged him into the wall socket. “All of this makes him look like a good suspect to me,” he said. “If I was still on duty and it were up to me, I’d say, ‘This guy is a ‘must investigate.’”



None of this stuff means Kenny was the hijacker. But I have to ask if anyone has said anything like this about Sheridan?


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