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quade

DB Cooper

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Posted is a map which offers a partial conveyance
route to Tina Bar. Its pretty obvious once you see it.

The Willamette River empties into Columbia below
(before) Tina Bar and offers a strong cross current confluence with the Columbia, as evidenced by Willamette "Quaternary Marine fine silts" being deposited in Vancouver Lake vs. coarse grain basaltic silts endemic to the Columbia itself (ref - USGS)

Under high water/high volume conditions, the Willamette diverts Columbia material into ... guess where. The Vancouver Lake-to-Tina Bar area.

[This is an estabished fact already spoken to by myself earlier in these pages, using USGS articles which reference "fine Qauternary Marine silt" from the Willamette deposited in Vancouvr Lake vrs. the coarse grain basaltic silts of the Columbia itself. The Willamette River offers a strong cross current diversion
at its confluence with the Columbia. This is what the dredging of Vancouvr Lake 1982-83 was all about and why].

This offers a hydrological explanation of how material
arriving on the Columbia could wind up in Vancouver Lake and up to Tina Bar.

This does NOT explain how Cooper money got into
the Columbia prior to the Willamette confluence, in
the first place.

I attach a vectoring map which shows the relationship.
Once again I apologise for the lousy quality of the graphic but it gets the point across...

Georger -

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The map you posted does not date to 1971 - and that creates problems with the general population and confusion. Roads and developement occurring after 1971 - makes a mix for confusion.

Remember there are OTHER eyewitness accounts other than the Heisson account. One I have posted in the past and I was contacted by one of the individuals involved. Again it is information related at the time of the skyjack and later .

As Himmelsbach has explained to me and others many times over the yrs. The chase planes were what these people saw and mistook it for the plane.

The witness I spoke with said she knew the difference in the sound of the planes and that there was no way that what she heard was a chase jet. Yet, her account would put the plane further East than the FBI or the flight statistics put the plane.

Therefore for the sake of being objective - no eyewitness acct on the location of the plane could be used.

It was cloudy and raining - they would have had to make visual contact with the plane and have recorded the time. This senario would seem highly improbably due the conditions.

Please PM me with the account you are siting. I do notice that you made a red X's to designate the
siting of the report. By doing this you plant things in the minds of the reader - therefore ALL sitings should be marked...to be fair.

There were several sitings - and some did not report it at the time or they were dismissed because the FBI didn't think the plane could possibly be in that area...as per the accounting I am speaking of.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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You don’t have to try and convince me that it didn’t come down the Washougal. I have said all along there is no way it made it down the Washougal. I go up that river to swim in the summer all the time and I have posted why I don’t think it could have made it before so I won’t go into it again.

If we could rule it out based on flight path then it would be a step in the right direction
“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

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georger:
I have two facts that might apply:
1) I drove past Woodburn this weekend
2) 377 has fished for tuna, and has used rubber bands.

Quote

Posted is a map which offers a partial conveyance
route to Tina Bar. Its pretty obvious once you see it.

The Willamette River empties into Columbia below
(before) Tina Bar and offers a strong cross current confluence with the Columbia, as evidenced by Willamette "Quaternary Marine fine silts" being deposited in Vancouver Lake vs. coarse grain basaltic silts endemic to the Columbia itself (ref - USGS)

Under high water/high volume conditions, the Willamette diverts Columbia material into ... guess where. The Vancouver Lake-to-Tina Bar area.

[This is an estabished fact already spoken to by myself earlier in these pages, using USGS articles which reference "fine Qauternary Marine silt" from the Willamette deposited in Vancouvr Lake vrs. the coarse grain basaltic silts of the Columbia itself. The Willamette River offers a strong cross current diversion
at its confluence with the Columbia. This is what the dredging of Vancouvr Lake 1982-83 was all about and why].

This offers a hydrological explanation of how material
arriving on the Columbia could wind up in Vancouver Lake and up to Tina Bar.

This does NOT explain how Cooper money got into
the Columbia prior to the Willamette confluence, in
the first place.

I attach a vectoring map which shows the relationship.
Once again I apologise for the lousy quality of the graphic but it gets the point across...

Georger -

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I finished reading all of Catch-22.
Sluggo was wrong. (post 2204) Snowden's parachute wasn't missing. Snowden was wearing it. The morphine Yossarian tried to give Snowden was missing, replaced by a note. Yossarian tried to give aspirin instead.


"There, there," said Yossarian. "There, there." He pulled the rip cord of Snowden's parachute and covered his body with the white nylon sheets.

"I'm cold."

"There, there." (End of chapter 41 "Snowden," pp. 463-4)

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Im glad to see we are focausing on the money again as it is without a doubt our best clue. I was wondering though since we now have a more accurate flight path wich puts the plane way west of washugul if we could rule out that as a posible path?



Reply: Here is a map of the swath from BTG down to
Portland Intl Airport. You will see Heisson (eyewitness report), BTG VOR on V23, Orchards (possible DZ), and
Portland ITL where it all started.

If money winds up on the ground near the Columbia
in this swath, it has a much easier route to going
just up to the bend of the river thenwashing back inland in a flood, later winding up at Tina Bar.

That's one of four possible theories.


What are you trying to do. According to the best information we have the plane didn't actually overfly BTG. It was a mile east. The Heisson story doesn't make sense, plus you location is off by about a mile. For it to check out the plane would have to be 5.5 miles off off of V-23 and about 6 miles off of the radar track.

"
....Dennis Levanen, who lives in the Heisson area, said he vividly remembers the airplane flying directly over his house on Thanksgiving Eve in 1971. He quibbles with the FBI’s flight path of the airplane, noting that it appears several miles west of where it actually flew.
Quote


“It was just huge and roaring,” he said. “It was under a lot of power to keep it airborne, going as slow as the guy demanded.”


A plane at 10,000 feet is no where near huge. At night with no lights, partially to mostly clouded skies there is no way you would see it. Lastly, why is PDX marked?

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How can I send that map you just posted regarding the Wilmet thing to a person who DOES not wish to be in this forum. He is a specialist in these things and was born and raised on the Columbia - I tried to down load it from here but the site will not allow that. Can you send it to me with my regular email address as an attachement. I would - like to have his opinion of what you are saying. The private email is the same I use in the forum
[email protected]

Quade I hope it is not against the rules to put the email in a post because it is the same as my profile. If I did wrong then you can just delete this post or strike it out...I am just trying to find a way to send this map to someone else.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Snowmman is right about no logical basis for positively concluding that the money was washed onto Tina Bar (sp?), but I think all the attention to flow and paths makes good sense as it might tell us where Cooper jumped. It is amazing to me that any jump artifacts have been found. The fact that two were found, the money and the placard, makes me think that if items as large as Coopers body and rig were out there, they likely would have been found.


REPLY> Good thoughts. I also struggle with no artifacts being found. Everything happens for a reason.

*It almost suggests an extinguishing factor. Like something wiped all clues directly related to Cooper,
or on his person, except for wads of money of which
there were 'many' pieces to find their way back into
surface reality. If he had dropped into a volcano or
into the mouth of a sturgeon ... well then he would
be gone in-total. It has to be something more than
terrain and woods and circumstance (after all these years of people looking etc), in my opinion. Unless he
fell into something which by its very nature is 100%
obliterating ... like a black hole!

Now. I have not posted this yet but my charts of the
flow direction and Willamette confluence suggest to
me the money came to Tina Bar most logically by travel from one of four directions. Either into the
Vancouver Lake area from the sky above, or into the
same area by land from north or east, or from some point before the Willamette in the Columbia, or from
the south side of the Columbia perhaps Portland or
the Willamette itself!

If the money had been analysed throughly at the beginning we might not be having this discussion.
Traits carried by the money might have suggested
a specific history.

But, we now know that a hydrologic process can account
for the money being at Tina Bar .. vs at Mary's Tavern!

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You find 3 bundles of cash, out of a larger known group, in the sand. Nearby are a river, and a road.

Your scientists tell you that the decomposition and state of the money is consistent with all decomposition happening at the find site. There is no data that suggests movement beyond the find site. You're missing the jumper, the bag, and the rest of the money. There's no data that says the jumper had to have died.

The detective in the tan coat says it's obvious the money arrived via the river.

The detective in the grey coat says it's obvious the money arrived via the road. (human plus car).

Detective Tan says "But Why?"
Detective Grey says "To achieve the effect that it did from 1980-2008..no investigation."

Or was there some other reason there was no investigation?




Reply> The money arrived no earlier than 1974,
and no later than the last flood which could have left
it there, minus time for silt eroded in the meantime to yield the 2" silt overlay found.

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Let's assume I planted a stack of $20's at Tina Bar this past weekend, about 3" into the sand, 30' up from the current shoreline.

How long do you think before it's going to be found?
(DZ.com readers don't count)

A) Never
B) 1 year
C) 5 years
D) 10 years

Newspapers have lasted 15 years in landfills (inhibited microbial action). We don't have good data on the decomposition of US currency covered in wet sand in the Tina Bar environment (temperature, microbes, etc). But I think it's reasonable that if not flooded away, 10 years might be a upper limit before natural decomposition to nothingness.

Second question:

Aluminum and tin cans and plastic float and last longer than paper.

How many 5-10 year old tin cans/plastic/aluminum cans exist about 3" below the surface at Tina Bar?

A) none
B) some
C) a lot

if A) none, why not?

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Reply> The money arrived no earlier than 1974,
and no later than the last flood which could have left
it there, minus time for silt eroded in the meantime to yield the 2" silt overlay found.



You don't know the patterns of silt deposit and erosion.
There could be 2" of deposit and erosion daily for all we know, during the high water period. The high water mark may be reached every year for all we know.

You don't have the 1980 Tina Bar geology report, so you don't know if it's in error about the clay layer. You also don't have data on the material that was moved during dredging. What you're saying is that you heard a geologist said something and you believe it. You don't have data on whether earth moving equipment moved sand on Tina's Bar or not. Or whether the sand on Tina Bar is a mixture of dredging spoils and natural sediment deposit.


So all you can really say firsthand is "I Don't Know".

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Reply> I see you live on the wild side.


I have two facts that might apply:
1) I drove past Woodburn this weekend
2) 377 has fished for tuna, and has used rubber bands.

Quote

Posted is a map which offers a partial conveyance
route to Tina Bar. Its pretty obvious once you see it.

The Willamette River empties into Columbia below
(before) Tina Bar and offers a strong cross current confluence with the Columbia, as evidenced by Willamette "Quaternary Marine fine silts" being deposited in Vancouver Lake vs. coarse grain basaltic silts endemic to the Columbia itself (ref - USGS)

Under high water/high volume conditions, the Willamette diverts Columbia material into ... guess where. The Vancouver Lake-to-Tina Bar area.

[This is an estabished fact already spoken to by myself earlier in these pages, using USGS articles which reference "fine Qauternary Marine silt" from the Willamette deposited in Vancouvr Lake vrs. the coarse grain basaltic silts of the Columbia itself. The Willamette River offers a strong cross current diversion
at its confluence with the Columbia. This is what the dredging of Vancouvr Lake 1982-83 was all about and why].

This offers a hydrological explanation of how material
arriving on the Columbia could wind up in Vancouver Lake and up to Tina Bar.

This does NOT explain how Cooper money got into
the Columbia prior to the Willamette confluence, in
the first place.

I attach a vectoring map which shows the relationship.
Once again I apologise for the lousy quality of the graphic but it gets the point across...

Georger -

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Im glad to see we are focausing on the money again as it is without a doubt our best clue. I was wondering though since we now have a more accurate flight path wich puts the plane way west of washugul if we could rule out that as a posible path?



Reply: Here is a map of the swath from BTG down to
Portland Intl Airport. You will see Heisson (eyewitness report), BTG VOR on V23, Orchards (possible DZ), and
Portland ITL where it all started.

If money winds up on the ground near the Columbia
in this swath, it has a much easier route to going
just up to the bend of the river thenwashing back inland in a flood, later winding up at Tina Bar.

That's one of four possible theories.


What are you trying to do. According to the best information we have the plane didn't actually overfly BTG. It was a mile east. The Heisson story doesn't make sense, plus you location is off by about a mile. For it to check out the plane would have to be 5.5 miles off off of V-23 and about 6 miles off of the radar track.

"
....Dennis Levanen, who lives in the Heisson area, said he vividly remembers the airplane flying directly over his house on Thanksgiving Eve in 1971. He quibbles with the FBI’s flight path of the airplane, noting that it appears several miles west of where it actually flew.
Quote


“It was just huge and roaring,” he said. “It was under a lot of power to keep it airborne, going as slow as the guy demanded.”


A plane at 10,000 feet is no where near huge. At night with no lights, partially to mostly clouded skies there is no way you would see it. Lastly, why is PDX marked?




Reply> Agree 100%! No points I marked on these maps are definitive of anything, outside of Tina Bar.
They are merely points which have been mentioned.
I could not agree with you more.l

Unless I missed it, even with Sluggo's revised flight
path we still have no definitive jump point. Orchards,
Hokinson were mentioned by Sluggo, briefly? Then
somone asked Ckret if the rumor was true that Scotton
Corner and Brush Prarie were being searched by the FBI but Ckret never replied to that. So I am exactly where you are in most of this.

I do know enough about fluid dynamics to see a relationship btwn the Willamette and the Columbia
for bringing debris into the Vancouver Lake - Tina Bar
area NOT BECAUSE I SAY IT BUT BECAUSE THE USGS
SAYS IT AND HAS PUBLISHED PAPERS ON FINE SILT
SEDIMENT DRIFT FROM THE WILLAMETE ACROSS THE COLUMBIA INTO VANCOUVER LAKE and subsequent
dreding of Vancouver Lake because of it (1982-83).
(Just do a Google search on Vancouver Lake dredging)

I guess it was a total waste of time to make these maps so from now on it belongs to Sluggo and Snowmman and Ckret who will solve this case.

Good luck.

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Georger are you going to send me that map. You may have sent it and it went to my trash mail which I delete with out looking for. Let me know the name it will come under or make the subject matter read MAP so I won't delete it.

Thank YOu, I really would like for someone to see that map.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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I guess it was a total waste of time to make these maps so from now on it belongs to Sluggo and Snowmman and Ckret who will solve this case.

Good luck.



Georger, If you're correct, it doesn't matter what people think. If you give up so easy, then it was right to push back on you, cause it's more likely you're wrong. I think you're wrong. I don't care what other people think. I also have no connection to the other folks you mention. That's in your own head.

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Now. I have not posted this yet but my charts of the
flow direction and Willamette confluence suggest to
me the money came to Tina Bar most logically by travel from one of four directions. Either into the
Vancouver Lake area from the sky above, or into the
same area by land from north or east, or from some point before the Willamette in the Columbia, or from
the south side of the Columbia perhaps Portland or
the Willamette itself!

But, we now know that a hydrologic process can account
for the money being at Tina Bar .. vs at Mary's Tavern!



I felt this was where you were taking your Willamette thing and why I asked for the map in a portable manner.

From the Lake - not possible. From the air Not likely - due to the fight area - it would have to be way West for something as large as that bank bag to drop into Tena's bar and that doesn't explain why only the 3 bundles were found.

What Hydrologic process? - a real one or one contocted by false information? Lets use facts...I do not know anything about what you all are talking about, but I have help on the other end now - but he will not come to the site - please send the map so I can email it to him. He will provide technical information based on study series hence the Willamette thing he needs to see...he currently says "hogwash" No way the money could get to Tena's bar by way of Vancouver Lake. Remember that the money was close to the surface and it had been protected of most of the 7yrs.,,considering the condition of the found money it had NOT been in the water for 7 yrs.

Ckret agreed to this then contradicted himself - so he doesn't really know, so there will be no help from the FBI.

It has been stated in 1980 and as of recent that the money would not have survived for 7 yrs in the water.

It had to have been protected for part of that time - buried and contained.

Please send the map in a portable manner to my regular email - and I will send copies of your posts (because I cannot relay things I do not understand)and the map to him. He will NOT visit the forum, but we NEED his help or to be honest I NEED HIS HELP.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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You find 3 bundles of cash, out of a larger known group, in the sand. Nearby are a river, and a road.

Your scientists tell you that the decomposition and state of the money is consistent with all decomposition happening at the find site. There is no data that suggests movement beyond the find site. You're missing the jumper, the bag, and the rest of the money. There's no data that says the jumper had to have died.

The detective in the tan coat says it's obvious the money arrived via the river.

The detective in the grey coat says it's obvious the money arrived via the road. (human plus car).

Detective Tan says "But Why?"
Detective Grey says "To achieve the effect that it did from 1980-2008..no investigation."

Or was there some other reason there was no investigation?




Reply> The money arrived no earlier than 1974,
and no later than the last flood which could have left
it there, minus time for silt eroded in the meantime to yield the 2" silt overlay found.



Just an observation for what it is worth. In my many years of commercial fishing both coastal and mid ocean
I have never seen bundled paper (like a rolled up newspaper) floating offshore. Stuff like that loses buoyancy quickly and sinks. You see plastic and even cardboard floating, but not paper. Whether currency acts differently I wouldn't know. I could only afford to throw coins overboard. When I was a kid fishing with my Dad we couldn't afford radar. We used to go under the Golden Gate bridge in darkness and thick fog heading for the fishing grounds. I used to toss a penny overboard for good luck every time we went under the GG Bridge. We needed the luck, believe me. The sounds of the freighters horns in the fog scared the hell out of me as a kid. You couldn't see them and you could only pray they could see you on their radar and avoid you.

Someone (Jo, Sluggo?) mentioned experimenting with bundled dollar bills. What was the float time?

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Someone (Jo, Sluggo?) mentioned experimenting with bundled dollar bills. What was the float time?

377



REPLY> Try SafecrackingPLF on or about April 1,
08. Rumor is there was an estimate on float time for a bag filled with cash, but that's only a rumor. Some say it was "2 minutes" but only a real chemist can say.

I will look it up in the Almanac and report back.

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The map should be in your email Jo.
“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

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I know I am speculating, but when I consider all the facts, I conclude that the most likely outcome was Cooper lived, lost the money in freefall and was not a skydiver.

Basis for speculative conclusions:

Cooper lived: No body or gear found. Finding of smaller items says search was thorough enough to find a body and rig if jump was fatal. Also, no unresolved missing person cases were reported that were a good Cooper match.

Cooper lost the money in freefall: The T Bar find of stacked organized bills makes me think that bag was lost. Far more likely that it was lost during the jump than during a trek out.

Cooper was not a skydiver: His choice of an unsleeved emergency rig with no reserve attachment points over a sport rig which also had D rings for attaching a reserve says non skydiver to me. No skydiver I know would choose an unsleeved main for a high speed deployment. Remember, Cooper was never at subterminal speed. OUCH! Lack of skydiving experience might have made him unrealistically optimistic about jump forces resulting in inadequate securing of money bag to his rig/body. I think a skydiver would have secured it adequately.

Maybe a body wasn't found because they were searching in the wrong area, but remember, the money and placard were found by chance, not part of a search. If Cooper went in it is likely that his body and rig would have been found by now. This isn't Siberia. It is a populated area and the less developed areas are probably observed/traversed by hunters, hikers, pot farmers and land owners.

I applaud the painstaking research on flight path and money hydraulic path. Maybe it will lead us to a Cooper body search area that was previously overlooked.

I agree with Ckret on 2 of the 3 points. He thinks Cooper died on the jump. I see no evidence that Cooper died, but I am keeping an open mind.

Somewhere in Alaska, Galen Cook is trying to make all of his pieces fit the puzzle. Calls are being made to New York book publishing agents and Hollywood screenplay deal makers. To distract himself from nagging inconsistencies in the Wolfgang as Cooper story, Galen surfs sports car websites. That new Porsche Carerra sure looks good to him and motivates him to push harder.

Ckret works hard on a stack of open bank robbery investigations and figures he can keep the family car running for another five years. He thinks about guys half as smart making twice as much in cushy corp. security director jobs, but money never was the main lure in his career. Late at night, during unpaid overtime, he blogs with us amateur sleuths giving us a critical link to the official Cooper investigation.

Sluggo plays with his grandson and makes sure to keep him away from that lead lined isotope closet.
While we sleep, he fine tunes his 128 dimensioned matrix model integrating radar data, predicted jump trajectory, local weather, terrain and hydrology. He has a very good idea where Cooper jumped but nothing solid on his identity yet.

Jo scrutinizes maps and pinpoints critical "Cooper places" Duane took her, hopeful that her upcoming NW trip will find some new links. Duane knew way too much about the case, far more than was ever published. She is 101% certain that her husband was Cooper and gets exasperated at those who will not see. She is still holding on to a few trump cards. She has been around too long to show her hand early in the game.

Snowmman toils in the facility depicted in his aerial photo doing the Devil's work. They don't even have laws to restrict his activities, they are that far ahead of the curve. He has to watch his power consumption though. Running 512 parallel processors might make him look like an indoor pot farmer to the law enforcement software that monitors and analyses electrical power usage.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Hi 377. Thinking about what you said:
(edit)..just read your updated post...thanks, FUNNY!
Quote


377 wrote:
Cooper lost the money in freefall: The T Bar find of stacked organized bills makes me think that bag was lost. Far more likely that it was lost during the jump than during a trek out.



Quote


Ckret wrote:
When I talked to Brian he said the money was found in an area he could tell at some recent point had been covered by water. He said all of the debris was swept into one area, which is where he found the money.



This info Ckret on his recent chat with Brian is new information. The idea of "debris in the area" doesn't seem consistent with what the dig photos show, but maybe we're talking about small debris.

I was thinking if the debris was large, it would mean that the money bag deposited 3 bundles and then left the area with the rest of the money (possibly some was lost earlier though) without getting snagged on this debris and without depositing more bundles nearby.

This assumes the debris was there before or at the same time as the money bag. Could be after though.

This all assumes you subscribe to a bag-moves-with-water theory.

There were cows in the area. I once had a large model rocket land in a field and overnite cows chewed it in half.

A reasonable theory would be that cows chewed the money bag, depositing the 3 bundles. Or that earth moving machinery did. I'm only half-serious, but mainly trying to show there is no data supporting water movement. It's just a random guess.

A key question is whether the money bag got ripped off on jet exit. If that is highly likely, than water movement theories make more sense.

BUT: if the money bag got ripped off on jet exit, it's probably because it slipped out of the rope bindings. I might guess that meant the ropes stayed with cooper, while the bag slipped out..remember the rope is just wrapped around the bag..no attach points on the bag. Parachute suspension line is slippery?

Also, the bag has to come loose, but the top has to stay closed. Maybe there were multiple ropes, so the top didn't come open on the loss of the money bag.

I have a hard time with the "money bag lost" plus "money bag still tied up when it hits the ground" scenario.

And I can't understand why more bills weren't found. It's hard to believe the bag first "opened" at Tena Bar, releasing the money from a protected environment.

I can't picture a full story about the money that makes sense, other than a plant or other human intervention.

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