DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

This is from that same article, Oct 27, 2007. Since we have gotten a lot more information in the last couple of months, the statement from H. about "isn't anything left" was obviously incorrect.


For a long time, the FBI kept some elements of the crime secret, saving them to help identify the real hijacker. But not any more, Himmelsbach said.

"There isn't anything left that hasn't been made public," he said.

[snowmman 3]

If you've not seen the ckret video, there's just a little bit of extra detail that's interesting. Snaps attached.

from video at:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/340794_cooper23.html

these snaps give some detail on the back of the tie clip, and the back of the tie.

money find location id'ed with finger. Map is upside down so it looks wrong until you think about it

Can see physically what the '71 map looks like.
Also shows "the box"

(edit) FYI best to save these to your computer (click on them and then right click and save the image)..that way you can use windows viewer to zoom them. I didn't make them bigger cause they then exceed the dz limits)

[snowmman 3]

from the same video, some snaps of the FBI Ingram money.

Shows the folder FBI stores them in. Also a little more detail on the fully black ones.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

This is in the myth or fact bucket.

The earliest newspaper reference to Himmelsbach supposedly trailing 305 in a helicopter, that I can find, is in 1996.
are . ...

From the horses mouth:

A Oregon Army National Guard helicopter took off from Portland with 2 FBI agents to intercept the plane as it approached Portland. The helicopter was a Huey and the pilots names are Goyins and Gottlieb.

THINK:

This Huey left Portland after the 727 took off (exact time should be in the FBI records) to intercept the plan - with a top speed of 120 knotts - they were hoping to see Cooper coming down and then be on top of him in minutes.

It did not work - the Huey never got a glimps of the plane. When they turned back to Portland the 727 was 60 miles from them. Ok, now where are the record and time data sheets from that helicopter. What time did it get into the air and what were the co-ordinates when it turned back to Portland. Alos what was its destination when it left Portland?

Himmelsbach was in the air the next day - searching the area.
++++++++++++++++
Attention:

In the FBI reports from the night of the jump - it is stated they found out that 300 lb boxes could be dropped from the aft stairs.


The report leaves this bit of information out, yet it was stated by Himmelsbach and others.
The information was coming out of Minneapolis Central.

Myth buster:

to difficult to keep contact with the plane on FAA radars over the Pacific.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Thank You for posting those pictures - most do not realize that not everyone has access to cable and news from the N.W. We get very little info in the South...then it is edited - till it does not resemble the original broadcast.

Still do not understand why Ckret will not make a good close of pic of the tie clasp - both front and back. We have requested this before.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Still do not understand why Ckret will not make a good close of pic of the tie clasp - both front and back. We have requested this before.

My theory is maybe I unnerved him with the 5 piece set photo. I'm thinking the tie bar is more similar to the one in that 5 piece set then he said. Just a theory.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Myth buster:
Radaczak wanted to take the plane over the ocean but Seattle said it would be to difficult to keep contact with the plane on FAA radars over the Pacific.

So Jo, are you suggesting that the flight map we have was created from FAA radar tracking, not USAF as we've been led to believe? Or is it just that FAA was also tracking, in addition to USAF?

USAF (SAGE) radar should have had no problem with the Pacific since they were designed to look for Russan bombers out there?

(edit) OR: are you suggesting this was another thing Cooper might have known, that would have forced the V23 selection as "obvious".

[snowmman 3]

Quote

A Oregon Army National Guard helicopter took off from Portland with 2 FBI agents to intercept the plane as it approached Portland. The helicopter was a Huey and the pilots names are Goyins and Gottlieb.

THINK:

This Huey left Portland after the 727 took off (exact time should be in the FBI records) to intercept the plan - with a top speed of 120 knotts - they were hoping to see Cooper coming down and then be on top of him in minutes.

It did not work - the Huey never got a glimps of the plane. When they turned back to Portland the 727 was 60 miles from them. Ok, now where are the record and time data sheets from that helicopter. What time did it get into the air and what were the co-ordinates when it turned back to Portland. Alos what was its destination when it left Portland?

Okay you're saying that if we knew the timeline for the helicoptor and it's probable flight path, and it's turnaround point, we can reverse engineer where the 727 wasn't at particular times, because they didn't see it.

Or, are you saying they were in a certain area, and didn't see the plane, so they assumed that wasn't the DZ, but maybe they messed up, and that threw off the search, and pushed it up towards Ariel.

i.e. an example of people making an earnest effort, but contributing bad data, which then skewed the search effort wrongly.

I think that might be more what you're suggesting? If so, maybe that makes sense. It was a cloudy night, so relying on any visual non-intercept data would be a bad idea?

(edit) they must have been fed radar tracking info from ATC, otherwise they would have worried about in-air crash?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

In this same moment and from the same source they were told this "CIA has been using 727's in Vietnam to drop agents and supplies behind enemy lines."

The report leaves this bit of information out, yet it was stated by Himmelsbach and others.

Why would the report leave this out? Wouldn't the FBI agents be setting themselves up for non-performance-of-duty accusations? They must have been told to not include it for national security reasons? I'm just guessing out loud. I can't imagine the scenario, although it was 1971 so who knows.

When you say "it was stated by Himmelsbach and others", where did that happen? where was it stated?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

A Oregon Army National Guard helicopter took off from Portland with 2 FBI agents to intercept the plane as it approached Portland. The helicopter was a Huey and the pilots names are Goyins and Gottlieb.

Was this Gale Goyins? Photo attached from Gale Goyins flying a search and rescue mission Aug 14, 1975, around Mt Jefferson. (Or). Curt Degner co-pilot on that mission.

(edit) if still alive, Gale Goyins might be 78 now. uncertain.

(edit) Google News refers to Lt. Col. Goyins and Maj. William Gottlieb in 1977 ...

Walla Walla Union-Bulletin (Newspaper) - May 2, 1977,
An Oregon National Guard helicopter, fighting winds and altitude, ... The helicopter, piloted by Lt. Col. Gale Goyins and Maj. William Gottlieb, flew Reddick to a hospital and Bangs started off again ...

[n467us 0]

Has anybody seen the movie "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray? This forum is heading in that direction... this could be the promo for the forum:

"It's back! The elusive tie clasp returns to the DB Cooper forum... who knows what mysteries it will reveal as experts from around the world debate whether or not it is THE tie clasp that could have possibly been worn by Duane Weber just prior to his alleged leap into the cold night over the pacific northwest! But don't wait long... just like the McRib sammich... the tie clasp discussion will be available for a limited time only, then we turn the discussion back to those amazing fingerprints..."

H-E-L-P us Ckret!!!!! Please dig something else out of the FBI shoebox that we can grab onto so we don't start rehashing the same old material... this is a CODE RED (or whatever you guys call it when it's really important) THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

this is a CODE RED (or whatever you guys call it when it's really important) THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KAFFEE
...Harold, what's a
Code Red?

DAWSON
Sir, a Code Red is a disciplinary
engagement.

KAFFEE
What does that mean, exactly?

DAWSON
Sir, a marine falls out of line, it's up
to the men in his unit to get him back on
track.

KAFFEE
What's a garden variety Code Red?

DAWSON
Sir?

KAFFEE
Harold, you say sir and I turn around and
look for my father. Danny, Daniel, Kaffee.
Garden variety; typical. What's a basic
Code Red?

DAWSON
Sir, a marine has refused to bathe on a
regular basis. The men in his squad would
give him a G.I. shower.

KAFFEE
What's that?

DAWSON
Scrub brushes, brillo pads, steel wool ...

SAM
Beautiful.

KAFFEE
Was the attack on Santiago a Code Red?

DAWSON
Yes sir.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

H-E-L-P us Ckret!!!!! Please dig something else out of the FBI shoebox that we can grab onto so we don't start rehashing the same old material... this is a CODE RED (or whatever you guys call it when it's really important) THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For Heaven's Sake - hold you Piece. I am only quoting a book by Himmelsbach and notes in it that I made from converstations over the yrs.

As for FAA ? - I don't have a clue - that is what the book says.

CIA used the 727 in Vietman - that has been stated from get go by Himmelsbach and it is in his book. Maybe it was not made public knowledge so as not to spur such conversations as we have had here...but this was stated by Minnesota. WHY do you think they started looking for individuals who served in Viet Nam? This is nothing NEW.

Years ago I found a picture of such a delivery being made by our armed services on the computer and then it disappeared like so many things did over the yrs.

I am not suggesting anything - just making a casual response to something that was said in a prior post.

Those Composites came out of CKRETS box: Maybe he let them out for a reason Do you think that Sluggo produced them like a magician?

these un-publicized composites show things that are more like Duane than the cleaned up version the FBI used.

In fact they closely resemble a sketch that a forensic artist did for me using the 1971 polaroid and other pictures since I didn't have anything that would show Duane in his 40's - this man is known all over the USA - for reconstruction forensics - he wasn't cheap either.

I needed to know what Duane looked like in his 40's, so I paid the price.

It would be a couple of yrs later that I acquired more photos thru Doug Pasternak's investigation.

This artist did not have access to the old criminal files and other photos I was later able to find.
The sketch is very large so I can't scan it at home - it would take someone with a large scanner.

I guess everyone looks like someone else - but, it has become just too much for me. HOW can he look so much like almost every composite except the Bing Crosby look- a- like and having confessed to being Cooper and not be Cooper?

There is just too much to ignore - I can't ignore it and I won't ignore it. Someone else has to see what I am seeing.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

CIA airdrops should be old news.
C-123 used for supplying the Contras in Nicaragua, for example.

See the capture of Eugene Hasenfus in 1986
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Hasenfus

hey, he parachuted..hmmm..
Interesting he disobeyed orders by wearing a parachute on the mission.


Other example: Tibet '58-'61? (35-40 drops?)
In 1958, the CIA started using air bases in Bangkok (or Takhli?), Thailand to airdrop guns and ammunition into the ethnic-Tibetan regions of Kham.
Eventually four C-130s modified for high-altitude drops were used?

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

They may have used 20.9 as an abbreviation. Like "Center" as abbreviation for "Seattle Center". They may have been mentally rushed for some reason at that point.

Actually, that's the way we talk when things are going normally. The objective is to use as few syllables as possible to avoid tying up the frequency. That's the sign of a competent, relaxed pilot. When pilots start getting really wordy, that would be a sign of stress or discomfort.

REPLY: Good point. You can see this in Scott reading
the transcript, and they all get 'wordy' at times (lots of
repeating and ahh's and duhh's, uhhhh's), then
things settle down, a kind of rythm in the crisis.

[snowmman 3]

According to Robert Serling's book about the Boeing Company, three Boeing 727s were acquired by Air America, which was operated by the CIA. Indeed, the head of Air America inquired about how much cargo could be dropped down the rear stairs before Air America purchased its 727s.

supposedly documented in this book:
Legend & Legacy: The Story of Boeing and Its People

I've attached a separate document that purports to have the history of the three 727s bought by Air America. Apparently used by Southern Air Transport.

source:
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/jets.pdf

(edit) another source lists four 727s thru Air America

N695WA 727-173C 19509 (leased from World)
N5055 727-92C 19173 (leased to Southern Air Transport) sold (03/10/72)
N5092 727-92C 19174 (leased to Southern Air Transport) sold
N5093 727-92C 19175 to CAT as B-1018

[n467us 0]

In Reply To:
For Heaven's Sake - hold you Piece. I am only quoting a book by Himmelsbach and notes in it that I made from converstations over the yrs.
++++

Just adding a little humor... I think that sooner or later, a piece of evidence/information is going to come out that actually cracks this case open - you can probably have your item scanned at a Fedex Kinkos or UPS Store (or a local newspaper) for a nominal fee.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

In Reply To:
For Heaven's Sake - hold your Piece. I am only quoting a book by Himmelsbach and notes in it that I made from converstations over the yrs.
++++

Just adding a little humor... I think that sooner or later, a piece of evidence/information is going to come out that actually cracks this case open.

I caught wind of a rumor - OK, Ckret, is there any truth to this?

The FBI or others are actually searching the area I have proposed for yrs to be the DZ as you guys call it. In the area where the pipeline and the railroad tracks intersect. This is between Scotton corner and Brush Prairie.

Is there any truth to this or is it rumor?

This is the area of the track, tower and shed. I do not know where he landed but it had to be N.W. of the track and he was able to see the tower light...he was on his way S.E. Odd that the track and pipeline intersect right there - but I have told this for yrs to anyone who would listen. It is in the old thread. It is another forum I participated in yrs ago and also in information I sent to the FBI.

For your information and not related to his landing zone:

Powerlines and pipelines cross at another point N. of there up around 502...but, he was not that far N.W.

The Dollars Corner Tavern in the place Duane claimed to know someone who ran the place or owned the place, but that we were not going there.

I later went there in May of 2001, but with limited resources to track down a man I knew nothing about.. A man in the tavern told me about a hermit type veteran who may have known Duane.

He had pulled me aside away from the people I had gone there with to tell me that this man would have known Duane. We were unable to locate him and he didn't have a phone - we finally decided it was a wildgoose chase.

CKRET, I divulged these things to the FBI and to the media and to the crew I went to WA with in 2001, but no one wanted to check them out. The crew took me ever which way but right.

The FBI was so set that he had landed way North of the area - that no one paid me any mind...just to ignore that poor pathetic crazy woman.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Albert18 0]

Jo,

Which way is Scotton corner from Brush Prairie? I have found Brush Prairie but I can't find Scotton corner.

Is that a railroad track that runs southwest to northeast through Brush Prairie?

[BigSky 2]

I think I have said this before but if anyone wants me to go over and try to pinpoint some of these locations I will be more than happy to do so. I live in Portland so this is a short drive.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[377 20]

If Cooper was as smart as some think, he would have carried a pocket VHF AM receiver so that he could listen to comms between the plane and the outside world. If the FBI were planning to storm the plane they likely would have communicated this info to the cockpit crew. He might also learn about plans to track the flight, block takeoff, etc.

You could get small analog tunable air band radios for under $20 back then. They were just AM transistor radios with an additional freq converter stage. They were not very selective which was an asset when trying to find transmissions. If the signal was strong, as it would be if you were inside the airplane making the transmission, it would leak through no matter where you were tuned enabling you to retune to the exact frequency and hear both sides of the conversation. I used one inside an airliner parked at the gate and you could easily hear all comms including an update on catering truck arrival, and the tower inquiring about expected pushback time.

A guy with Wolfgang's background probably would have thought about this. So would anybody who had pilot training.

I still think Cooper's gear choice strongly implies non-skydiver (sport jumper). I know others disagree. Almost every jumper in that era heard stories about the good old days when men were men and jumped sleeveless surplus mains. The openings were described as hitting a brick wall in the sky. In a jet jump you are never sub terminal. You are going to be carrying money, lots of it and not secured perfectly. The last thing you want is a brick wall canopy deployment.

Just my thoughts.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I was clicking thru some old Air America pics available online, and found some funny ones with guys and girls..

(edit) shows some briefcases of the era!

[skyjack71 0]

Understand that I am working with a 1979 photo copied topographic map that covers a very large area. There is little detail and I believe the answer to your question is that it is the track that runs thru Brush Prairie.

The track in the northern region is labeled Portland and Northern and after it goes thru Helision (there a big crease so I can't read the name of that town - just do the best you can). After this Hel---- it is then referred to as Longview. It passes near Battle Ground Lake and then on to East Battleground.

Tukes Mtn is near there (was there a beacon on that Mtn for planes). You may know the answer to this - it IS NOT THE TOWER that Duane referred - that tower was further South. Was just curious. Yes, the track goes thru Brush Prairie.

The reason I asked about that Tukes Mtn and mentioned Battleground Lake is because of a comment he made after we left the tower area and the place he talked about the track (which by the way is now farm land and homes) and in the Brush Prairie area.

After we pulled back onto the Hwy or Road we were going N. and we would later turn Left (there may have been other turns before getting on the road going N. toward Battleground). He mentioned the Tukes Mtn and Battleground Lake being on up that road...therefore I have always wanted to think that maybe he came down the track ...but, the things he told me ended with the track and tower. Some point in all of this he mentioned pump cars and how much fun they were - he was child like in discussing this, but the FBI has no record of his having been in that area except for the time he was in McNeil. In this same brief conversation he mentioned that the track crosses the Pipelines and power line that he had shown me earlier in the day.

Per the map I am looking at, that pipeline in Brush Prairie goes right on down to the other area he had taken me to earlier.

In THAT other area that he pointed out Pipe lines and Power lines (which I could not see). He made the statement that yrs ago before all of the undergrowth that you could walk for miles. (my speculation is - This is the area that he was trying to reach to get away from any possible search area...and an area he knew or had made arrangements for.)

Now I am not going to tell you where he goes from tha pipeline to get to the other points he had taken me to earlier - but, if you live in the area and it is not too hot and you are strong enough to help an old lady tramp thru some areas - call me. I will come even if I have to be carried.

I am not due to go to Wa until Oct. because I have to stay out of the sun and in temps not over 72 degrees - hence why I am do not leave my house except to go to Dr. or Grocery or Mall. In the FL. high heat and humidity - I venture out only after 7 PM in these summer months and can only take about an hour of that - this is when I do my gardening.

Albert, I have not trusted you in the past because I do not know who you are - but, I trust that if you are in that area and are able to find anything that you will be honest and forthcoming...about my leading you to it. I do not expect that he left anything that he had not already retrieved...he never said if he removed the items he buried at the tower shed, but because of the way he said it I would assume that he did - He said "One time I buried something behind a shed that used to be here". This was in the location where the tower was - which is now farmland.

I have held back from ever giving a lot of information in detail like this because I wanted to go myself, but I may never be physically able to do it. I hope and pray that if someone goes out there and finds something that they will do the RIGHT THING...but before you do the right thing - CALL me. Don't let me have to read it on TV or in the Newspapers.

All of this from - That poor crazy troubled dislusional woman.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

[reply

Quote

]You could get small analog tunable air band radios for under $20 back then. They were just AM transistor radios with an additional freq converter stage. They were not very selective which was an asset when trying to find transmissions. If the signal was strong, as it would be if you were inside the airplane making the transmission, it would leak through no matter where you were tuned enabling you to retune to the exact frequency and hear both sides of the conversation. I used one inside an airliner parked at the gate and you could easily hear all comms including an update on catering truck arrival, and the tower inquiring about expected pushback time.

Do you realize what you just did with that post? Incriminated yourself - how old are you?

Just kidding. That story did cause me to remember something he said, but not when we were in Wa. Trying to remember what he said, how he said it and when.

The time frame is Alabama - Birmingham. 1987. Not Flea Market - processing thought - but we were still at the Airport.

In the past he had mentioned that he and the wife had walkie talkies so it is not in relation to that.

He had been in Alabama looking for a place to live - had carried the travel trailer over. I was still in Va. working and I flew to Birmingham with my dog under the plane seat (three pound teacup poodle).

He had interference on the CB near the airport - it was at this point that he related something very similar to what you just said.
I'm sorry - it has been too many yrs for me to recall - it didn't mean anything until I read your post.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I was just thinking when we discussed the Dan Cooper comic (french) we immediately started talking about Canada (without even discussing the dominant English vs French characteristics of the different provinces)

in any case, in the 1971 era, a more interesting "jump" would be to Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam, where French was THE language to speak if you wanted to get around.

(edit) I'm not sure about Korea, say in the '50s, but there is an historical French influence in that area also.

I suppose the Cooper Caper is full of all sorts of random interconnections. There was so much going on in that/those time period(s), it's hard to sort out what might be a clue and what might not be.