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quade

DB Cooper

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"There is nothing in xxx xxx's appearance to distinguish him as the glamor boy of commercial aviation. Although some would describe him as darkly handsome, he is not a man who would stand out in a crowd. He is average in size and weight, modest in manner. With his briefcase under his arm and his ten-acre place in the outlying suburbs, he could easily pass as an insurance executive.

But on closer inspection, he is hardly the sedentary Mr. Average Rotarian. He keeps two horses and two motorcycles, which he rides with dash and daring. He flies big jets to maintain his skills and pilots small private planes for fun. He speaks conservatively but thinks of the far reaches of the universe"

This was written by Jack Anderson.

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I was curious about what 377 might be related to.
Scouring the net, I found an email address and fired off an email...I guess it was the wrong 377..this was his response:

"No, sorry. The phrase, "Sluggo_monster" has no meaning to me..

As to the numerals, "377," the only significance in my mind and memory is for U. S. Highway 377, which runs generally northward through Central and North Texas. I have spent many hours on that road, both for business and pleasure. I once participated in an exchange of gunfire on that highway. The outcome was favorable to me: There were no lasting injuries and two went to prison.

I never gave any thought to any numerological significance of that number or series of numerals, but then, I don't care about that stuff unless it resembles a birthday or the like.

I must admit, you have me curious. Can you tell me why you asked?"

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"There is nothing in xxx xxx's appearance to distinguish him as the glamor boy of commercial aviation. Although some would describe him as darkly handsome, he is not a man who would stand out in a crowd. He is average in size and weight, modest in manner. With his briefcase under his arm and his ten-acre place in the outlying suburbs, he could easily pass as an insurance executive.

But on closer inspection, he is hardly the sedentary Mr. Average Rotarian. He keeps two horses and two motorcycles, which he rides with dash and daring. He flies big jets to maintain his skills and pilots small private planes for fun. He speaks conservatively but thinks of the far reaches of the universe"

This was written by Jack Anderson.



Snowmman,

WTF is this about?

Sluggo_Monster

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PS: Did you explain to the Texas lawman why you were asking?



no, i just "moved along". He had a picture of himself on his web site/blog. Classic Texan big handlebar mustache. I figure retired sheriff or something.

I just said "sorry". Actually if I remember correctly, it was from when you were talking about memes of all things. He was talking about memes on his blog.

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WTF is going on around here??? Have we caught this guy yet..........what will our collective share of the ransom be once we doB|

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

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WTF is going on around here???



Well, right now snowmman is reading to us from a 1968 Parade magazine that was used as packing material.



No. it was purchased from a newspaper collector. It is pristine. Not packing material.

The article is available thru Google News, if you subscribe to the NewspaperArchie. 30 day subscriptions are relatively cheap

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Do the oxygen masks automatically deploy in a 727 at some low air pressure level? Does anyone know this?



In a 727, the Oxygen Masks deploy and O-2 flow starts at a cabin presure equivalent to 14,000 ft.

Didn't you read my post from this morning?

Quote

Both valves are designed to open pneumatically when cabin altitude exceeds 14,000 feet.



Sluggo

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Speaking of where are we, Sluggo, are you still holding to the theory that Cooper didn't dictate a flight path because he was trying to conceal his identity?

And your wrong but me not travelling for a dinner owed. I am sure I can find some type of training course near you that I should attend. I can't get good BBQ in the Pacific Northwest and there isn't a grit to be found.

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Since everyone is into oxygen today, here’s the federal regulation that would have kept flight 305 below 12,500 feet as long as they remained unpressurized, if it was in effect then. I imagine it was, but I just don’t know.

So when Cooper told them to keep the Aft Entry Door open, he locked them into 12,500 feet or less {except to 14,500 feet for less than 30 min.)

§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.
(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;
(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and
(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

I’ll get back to you in a minute Ckret.

Sluggo_Monster

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Speaking of where are we, Sluggo, are you still holding to the theory that Cooper didn't dictate a flight path because he was trying to conceal his identity?

And your wrong but me not travelling for a dinner owed. I am sure I can find some type of training course near you that I should attend. I can't get good BBQ in the Pacific Northwest and there isn't a grit to be found.



Ckret,

My step-daughter and Grandson are leaving Seattle Friday and will be here for two weeks. I’ll have plenty of both on hand (Bar-B-Que and Grits.)

In fact, I have a small farm (about 20 acres) that has a 10 acre grit orchard on it. And the grit harvest is only three weeks away.

I don’t know where you got “Cooper didn't dictate a flight path because he was trying to conceal his identity” from. What the bet was, is that Cooper knew where he was because he forced them to take V-23, by the parameters he dictated.

Now, here is where I am on it:

To keep with my policy of “intellectual honesty” I was surprised to find that there were some Victor Airways with 3-digits in 1971. (Victor-165, Victor-187, and Victor-287.)

However, I have plotted the routes that they “could have taken” using those segments, to check for restrictions (MOCA and OROCA). I think after I do so, I’ll be right back where I was in February, but your argument will be destroyed. And if not, then you won’t have to listen to me carp about it endlessly. (I’ll find something else to carp about.)

So, I’ll buy you the damned dinner, if you’ll let me use the time to get you to listen to (and understand) my reasoning. Fair deal?

So, when are you getting here? They have a lot of Homeland Security Training at Maxwell AFB.


Sluggo_Monster

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I remember it well, "Grit Harvest Days." They would block off Main Street and we would dance till dawn. smoked turkey legs, fried honey grits...

Seemed like every year Kooter Brown would fall out of the grit tree and get slammin drunk on Friday night.

I remember now, I confused you with somone else but why would Cooper do that, what was the point? Sorry if you already posted the why? it wouldn't be the first time somone repeated info here.

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Do the oxygen masks automatically deploy in a 727 at some low air pressure level? Does anyone know this?



In a 727, the Oxygen Masks deploy and O-2 flow starts at a cabin pressure equivalent to 14,000 ft.

Didn't you read my post from this morning?

Quote

Both valves are designed to open pneumatically when cabin altitude exceeds 14,000 feet.



Sluggo



I'm confused now. I thought we were told they might have ascended above 10,000 ft to try to get Cooper woozy. The transcripts reports them saying 15,000 ft at one point?
We thought that was a typo, right? But did we hear that they went to 12,000? What's the real max altitude they went to? Is it on the flight recorder?

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Since everyone is into oxygen today, here’s the federal regulation that would have kept flight 305 below 12,500 feet as long as they remained unpressurized, if it was in effect then. I imagine it was, but I just don’t know.

So when Cooper told them to keep the Aft Entry Door open, he locked them into 12,500 feet or less {except to 14,500 feet for less than 30 min.)



Could Cooper have known they might try to go high to make him woozy, and prefer sitting under the oxygen tanks that Ckret said he knew were there? In case he needed them?

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http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index5.html

” But what about a lone employee? Himmelsbach ruled this out too. “If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry,” he explained, “they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and the values and the character of normal, average Americans.”

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I remember now, I confused you with somone else but why would Cooper do that, what was the point? Sorry if you already posted the why? it wouldn't be the first time somone repeated info here.



Ckret,

Okay, I’ll try to state my position without a lot of detail.

First, a disclaimer… I have not yet proven anything (to my satisfaction), I have done a lot of leg work and I have found enough supporting information to make me feel it was worth my while to dig deeper.

Here is the main thesis:

Cooper gave the flight crew a set of instructions, That set of instructions defined certain parameters, altitude, airspeed, etc. Much like a magician (or more properly an illusionist) uses “misdirection” (asking for situation A, which sets up situation B, such that the observer thinks situation B was his own idea), Cooper used flight parameters to dictate that the flight would use Victor-23 as the flight path. Victor-23 has two distinctive turns that could be measured very well with even the cheapest of compasses. This allowed Cooper to locate and jump at (or soon after) the BTG VOR.

The parameters that I have been investigating are such things as: His first stated destination was Mexico (or possibly Mexico City), whether it was Mexico City specifically, or just Mexico is immaterial because both are EAST (and south) of Seattle. (There is no point in Mexico that is west of Seattle). He would have accepted Phoenix, AZ (East and South) and he accepted Reno, NV (again, east and south). He would not accept San Francisco, Ca. He was going to jump, he wasn’t accepting a destination, he was accepting a ROUTE.

The MOCAs* and OROCAs* for points in a direct line to Reno, Phoenix or any point in Mexico are too high for 10,000 ft. flight. Any westerly routes (Like V-27) just added more stops and more fuel burn. I hope to prove V-23 was the only option.

I have much documentation. And, thanks to your high-res Seattle Sectional, I have a complete list of 1971 Victor Airways out of Seattle. I have a few more days worth of work to do. When I’m finished, I will make a presentation to you. Or, I will have discovered I was wrong, in which case, I’ll go on to something else.

Thanks,

Sluggo_Monster

*MOCA =- Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude
*OROCA = Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude

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We thought that was a typo, right? But did we hear that they went to 12,000? What's the real max altitude they went to? Is it on the flight recorder?



If the transcript is the only evidence we have....

Then they never went above 10,000 ft until near Red Bluff, CA.

Field Altitude -->7000 ft --> 9,600 ft --> 10,000ft --> 11,000 (Maybe 11,500, but I'm too lazy to look it up).

Flight Ops suggested they don "Masks" if they went above 10,000 ft,

Sluggo

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Since everyone is into oxygen today, here’s the federal regulation that would have kept flight 305 below 12,500 feet as long as they remained unpressurized, if it was in effect then. I imagine it was, but I just don’t know.



No regulation . . . NONE . . . matters in an emergency.

Yes, a hijacking qualifies as an emergency even if the pilot doesn't officially declare it. ATC can declare for the pilot.

So, regulations don't mean jack in that particular instance.

Now, would the crew and even CD Cooper himself understand it's not prudent? Sure. If they go above 12.5 without O2 are people gonna keel over? Probably not.

I've gone to 15,000 without O2 many times and as long as you're not doing jumping jacks, you're probably not going to pass out.

I've gone to 18,000 feet at least a couple of hundred times and have always had to remove my O2 at least a 30 or so seconds before exiting the airplane and on several occasions several minutes before. While not recommended, again, as long as you're not doing jumping jacks, you're probably going to be ok.


While it's "fun" to talk about the regulatory aspect of the O2, it absolutely has no bearing on the "legality" of this particular flight and I seriously doubt DB Cooper would have cared about the regulations anyway!
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Im back. Not sure how long. Will simply inform the group
I am at Iowa City, Iowa. Massive flood here so been busy.
Im ok, family ok, but we are shaken and dealing with a
serious situation.

Suggo I apologise. Here's the attachment, I hope.
Again I just did this to see what it would look like.

George

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the ripcord is on the left main liftweb, about where your reserve ripcord is on todays modern rigs.maybe a a few inches higher.but remember, the nb6/8 has a floating main liftweb and the reserve ripcord pocket is mounted on it, which could also make locating and pulling the ripcord more difficult,as the r/c pocket and main liftweb will move as you pull on the r/c handle.(would also buffet around in freefall)if the mainliftweb is really loose, it will take several inches of pull just to get the r/c handle out of the pocket,then you still have to pull on the ripcord to extract the closing pins and deploy the parachute



Sounding more and more like he had to be experienced to survive, especially when you add in
a lose bag of money.

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hmmmm....it appears that cossey modified the location of the ripcord.but i still am unclear on why he would do that. i have in 40+ years never seen somone do such an odd mod to a pilot emergency chute. was cossey a pilot as well as a rigger /jumper? and the chute was used strictly by him when he flew jumpers?. it seems such an odd set up from your description. does cossey have any interest in joining us on this forum?if it was set up that way i can almost guarantee that cooper bounced because it is such an odd configuration.



On pull motions alone he likely never got the chute
open but I am betting with the bag flopping around
(f=ma) it knocked him silly or was such a distraction,
it distracts him or physicallty prevents him from getting chute open. ?

Is it possible he suffocated mid air or lost consciousness within 60 seconds due to inability to breathe due to air pressure on his face if his chute failed to open? (Combined stresses of low oxygen and fear can also cause filbrilation in less than one minute.)

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Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate right handed and he really meant left?



Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually.

I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!"

As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would.

His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right.

Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out.

My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it.

OK...what's next?



Brilliant for a pro but a death trap for a non pro?

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