DB Cooper

[SeventyWonderful 18]

3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Over the years, it's been discussed quite a bit.  I believe, but am not 100% certain that the Citizen Sleuths uncovered it originally about 10 or so years back. ( Carol  Abraczinskas).  

Basically, there are two camps...coincidence or not a coincidence.  I am more in the latter camp.

In addition, recently, I believe it was Olemiss, who found even an older publication that uses the character Dan Cooper in an aviation short story or something. (This one was not Canadian based.)

Now, it's possible that the comic wasn't the main influence, it could have been the older publication....or of course neither.

I just didn't know until recently that there has been significant USAF presence in Canada because of NORAD, and wonder if that could provide a clue to the hijacker's identity.  The discussions I read about the Dan Cooper comic centered around the hijacker either being French Canadian or having been stationed in Europe or maybe SE Asia.

(The Western Air Defence Sector for the Continental U.S. NORAD Region is located at McChord for what it's worth.  I know very very little about how NORAD works.)

The pulp short story about the non-comic Dan Cooper is also very intriguing. I believe Olemisscub was able to tie a Washington State reference in with the story as well?

The money certainly was the hijacker's main motivation, but I do feel that mass media helped keep whatever ideas he had percolating in his mind.  After all this is a guy who hijacked a plane while traveling North by Northwest in the literal sense of the words. 

[georger 194]

6 hours ago, SeventyWonderful said:

I just didn't know until recently that there has been significant USAF presence in Canada because of NORAD, and wonder if that could provide a clue to the hijacker's identity.  The discussions I read about the Dan Cooper comic centered around the hijacker either being French Canadian or having been stationed in Europe or maybe SE Asia.

(The Western Air Defence Sector for the Continental U.S. NORAD Region is located at McChord for what it's worth.  I know very very little about how NORAD works.)

The pulp short story about the non-comic Dan Cooper is also very intriguing. I believe Olemisscub was able to tie a Washington State reference in with the story as well?

The money certainly was the hijacker's main motivation, but I do feel that mass media helped keep whatever ideas he had percolating in his mind.  After all this is a guy who hijacked a plane while traveling North by Northwest in the literal sense of the words. 

Cooper was also tied in to the Cooper-Richards family of pre Revolutionary War Shenandoah Valley Virginia given land by Mandate of King George then rebelled - those Coopers that fought and beat Lord Fairfax in the Shenandoah Valley. Cooper descendants then moved out into the whole west, some of their descendants even in Oregon and Washington .... but they remembered their history and who they were.  In other words a real history vs a comic book history !

After all, this is a guy who had a real historical name rich in American history. No need for obscure comic book ology that wasn't even published or known in the United States of America, the Home of the Original Thirteen Colonies! Everyone with an "education" knows the name Cooper, in American history!    

Edited April 11, 2023 by georger

[georger 194]

DB Cooper Sleuth analysis. 

[Math of Insects 95]

It's pretty obvious the comic book thing is a coincidence. Someone trying to be discrete and anonymous would not pick the title character from a comic book. You might as well put Spiderman or Captain Fantastic.

"Cooper" was a common name. Baseball players, movie stars...it was out there. 

[SeventyWonderful 18]

3 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

It's pretty obvious the comic book thing is a coincidence. Someone trying to be discrete and anonymous would not pick the title character from a comic book. You might as well put Spiderman or Captain Fantastic.

"Cooper" was a common name. Baseball players, movie stars...it was out there. 

True. On the other hand the comic wasn't well known in the US, if at all.  The choice of name could have been his private joke.

[Math of Insects 95]

6 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

True. On the other hand the comic wasn't well known in the US, if at all.  The choice of name could have been his private joke.

He wouldn’t know who knew what. This is backward-creation to make it plausible, IMO. It’s pretty clearly a coincidence.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

On 4/10/2023 at 5:58 PM, SeventyWonderful said:

I just didn't know until recently that there has been significant USAF presence in Canada because of NORAD, and wonder if that could provide a clue to the hijacker's identity.  The discussions I read about the Dan Cooper comic centered around the hijacker either being French Canadian or having been stationed in Europe or maybe SE Asia.

(The opening sentence to my reply got cut off somehow here.  It wasn't my intention to come across as being so brusque.)

[SeventyWonderful 18]

19 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

He wouldn’t know who knew what. This is backward-creation to make it plausible, IMO. It’s pretty clearly a coincidence.

Well that's just it.  We don't know.  He got away and gave very little up in the process.  All we can do is speculate, which is part of the fun.

When is the comic first mentioned in regards to the case?

Edited April 12, 2023 by SeventyWonderful

[Math of Insects 95]

23 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

Well that's just it.  We don't know.  He got away and gave very little up in the process.  All we can do is speculate, which is part of the fun.

When is the comic first mentioned in regards to the case?

I am not a fan of "we don't know" when it is deployed to imply that all things are therefore equally possible. Not knowing some particular detail of something doesn't rewrite the rules of time, place, and distance. It only means the most likely thing is the default until something crazy turns up.

We know how things work in general. There would be no reason to expect that someone 100 miles south of the Canadian border would not have heard of a comic you, random Canadian, grew up with. Even if you expected it, you certainly wouldn't count on it. Not least of all at an airport of all places. It's pretty clearly a coincidence that we've arrived at after the fact. If anything, proximity to Canada makes it less likely it's from that comic, rather than more.

 

[Jay Ritchie 3]

On 4/3/2023 at 8:38 PM, SeventyWonderful said:

Could he perhaps have had a burn mark instead from an earlier injury?  Perhaps it tied in with with mixture of the particles on his tie...if such a scar existed in the first place.  I've read somewhere online that he may have had a scar on one of his hands, but don't have the slightest idea if that's true or why it wasn't included in the FBI reports.

 

I believe that the reference to a scar on one of his hands came from the Gunther book. I don't think anything to suggest an identifying feature has been mentioned elsewhere.

[WalterRaleigh 8]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:21 PM, FLYJACK said:

Another comic connection to Seattle, Ye Old Curiosity Shop..

Dan Cooper comic on left..

 

6 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

I am not a fan of "we don't know" when it is deployed to imply that all things are therefore equally possible. Not knowing some particular detail of something doesn't rewrite the rules of time, place, and distance. It only means the most likely thing is the default until something crazy turns up.

We know how things work in general. There would be no reason to expect that someone 100 miles south of the Canadian border would not have heard of a comic you, random Canadian, grew up with. Even if you expected it, you certainly wouldn't count on it. Not least of all at an airport of all places. It's pretty clearly a coincidence that we've arrived at after the fact. If anything, proximity to Canada makes it less likely it's from that comic, rather than more.

 

@FLYJACK 's discoveries showing the comic book connections to Seattle (one quoted above) tilt the scale, in my opinion, in favor of "Cooper" being intentional alias.

[georger 194]

8 hours ago, SeventyWonderful said:

Well that's just it.  We don't know.  He got away and gave very little up in the process.  All we can do is speculate, which is part of the fun.

When is the comic first mentioned in regards to the case?

Ive lost track of when and who released the Dan Cooper comic info first. Tom's team member Carol Abraczinskas?  Or Snowmman first before Carol ? 2008-10 ? Tom Kaye included it in his first citizen sleuths website around 2010 ?  I do remember that Carr advertised and used it almost immediately ...  Carol used it to claim Cooper might have been Canadian .... I am sure Tom Kaye can recite chapter and verse on when the comic first surfaced but, it was Snowmman who dug deep into the publishing history of the comic ....... followed by FJ adding his own research several years later.

Edited April 13, 2023 by georger

[Math of Insects 95]

13 hours ago, WalterRaleigh said:

 

@FLYJACK 's discoveries showing the comic book connections to Seattle (one quoted above) tilt the scale, in my opinion, in favor of "Cooper" being intentional alias.

I don’t see how to get from “People here wouldn’t have known about it,” to “See? There’s a connection, therefore it’s more likely from this source.” Those are two precisely opposing thoughts.

 

There being a connection to the area is all the more reason someone trying to be discreet would not choose such a name intentionally. You wouldn’t use “Clark Kent,” either. 
 

Normally, we’d hear that there was something with the same name in it, but it was only in Canada and other distant locations, and not in English, and we’d go, “OK, probably not then.” In this case, we hear it and go, “He must be Canadian then!” 
 

Any objective approach would say, “Interesting but unlikely.” Personally, I barely get to “interesting.” Any name he chose would have existed *somewhere.* It’s worth noticing that this comic existed, but until a diary is found that says “One day I will hijack a plane and be like my childhood hero Dan Cooper,” any connection is far-fetched at best, when compared to the “default” assumption that he just picked a common name to use as an alias.

 

 

[georger 194]

2 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

I don’t see how to get from “People here wouldn’t have known about it,” to “See? There’s a connection, therefore it’s more likely from this source.” Those are two precisely opposing thoughts.

 

There being a connection to the area is all the more reason someone trying to be discreet would not choose such a name intentionally. You wouldn’t use “Clark Kent,” either. 
 

Normally, we’d hear that there was something with the same name in it, but it was only in Canada and other distant locations, and not in English, and we’d go, “OK, probably not then.” In this case, we hear it and go, “He must be Canadian then!” 
 

Any objective approach would say, “Interesting but unlikely.” Personally, I barely get to “interesting.” Any name he chose would have existed *somewhere.* It’s worth noticing that this comic existed, but until a diary is found that says “One day I will hijack a plane and be like my childhood hero Dan Cooper,” any connection is far-fetched at best, when compared to the “default” assumption that he just picked a common name to use as an alias.

 

 

The only person who could connect the two would be Cooper himself and thats never going to happen, apparently. Carr interviewed Weinberg to see if Weinberg had any idea who the man DB might have been - results were apparently negative. The DB case is full of 'apparentlies' and little hard evidence, so far.

For example:  if bones were found today in the LZ area and dna was extracted from the bones and teeth, could that data be connected to the partial profile the FBI claims to have? So far as I know, nobody in the public domain can answer that question ???

Moreover Ulis introduced turmoil and split the Cooper community. That was intentional on Ulis' part. There isnt even a functioning Cooper community for discussing the case now.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 68]

6 hours ago, georger said:

For example:  if bones were found today in the LZ area and dna was extracted from the bones and teeth, could that data be connected to the partial profile the FBI claims to have? So far as I know, nobody in the public domain can answer that question ???

 

Great question, in the same spirit, can the partial profile that they have  provide any other data such as ethnicity, eye color etc ?

[Math of Insects 95]

8 hours ago, georger said:

The only person who could connect the two would be Cooper himself and thats never going to happen, apparently. Carr interviewed Weinberg to see if Weinberg had any idea who the man DB might have been - results were apparently negative. The DB case is full of 'apparentlies' and little hard evidence, so far.

For example:  if bones were found today in the LZ area and dna was extracted from the bones and teeth, could that data be connected to the partial profile the FBI claims to have? So far as I know, nobody in the public domain can answer that question ???

Moreover Ulis introduced turmoil and split the Cooper community. That was intentional on Ulis' part. There isnt even a functioning Cooper community for discussing the case now.  

Well, that's the point. If it needs Cooper himself to connect them, it's pretty safe to guess they are otherwise not connected. A comic-strip in another language, from another country...it would be far more surprising if it turned out they were connected, rather than were not. Particularly since he's using the title character's name while simultaneously trying to be inconspicuous. 

What do you mean about any fracturing of the "community" potentially being intentional?

[georger 194]

6 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Great question, in the same spirit, can the partial profile that they have  provide any other data such as ethnicity, eye color etc ?

We know the kit used - we know the loci tested for - what we dont know are the values obtained on each of those loci, except that the FBI says all they have is a 'partial'. They define partial by saying: Can exclude people but not rule people in !  They wont give us numbers.  

All of this is complicated further buy severe competition between people on forums. Doing anything in Cooperland has reached literal gridlock, and everyone has seen that developing since the Colbert situation followed by Ulis/Kaye. It appears these players are not going to relinquish control but only intensify their control over Cooperland. Ulis is now engaged in a hopeless suit against the FBI trying to get the FBI to release dna information to him! 

This current gridlock is set to continue - for years!

Edited April 14, 2023 by georger

[georger 194]

this is a test*

all ok . . .

Edited April 14, 2023 by georger

[SeventyWonderful 18]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:03 PM, Jay Ritchie said:

I believe that the reference to a scar on one of his hands came from the Gunther book. I don't think anything to suggest an identifying feature has been mentioned elsewhere.

Thanks!  I thought I had remembered something apocryphal about a scar on his hand, but couldn't remember where I had seen it mentioned.

Edited April 17, 2023 by SeventyWonderful

[Coopericane 44]

Full description of the scar from the Gunther book...

[JAGdb 68]

In the following 2013 article penned by Bruce Smith:

https://themountainnewswa.net/2013/02/06/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-who-was-cooper-what-is-known/

He states the following:

"Although he had no visible tattoos, scars or distinguishing anatomical features that are known publicly, it is rumored that the FBI knows of a small scar on Cooper’s hand that it has not revealed to the public."

He doesn't cite or enumerate a source for the rumor in the article, not sure if he does in his book.  But he doesn't mention the Gunther book as the source either.   I've been meaning to purchase Bruce's book, perhaps now is the time.

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by JAGdb

[georger 194]

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

April 18, 2023

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the location at 2011 PST

recalculation of DZ ...

Edited April 19, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 68]

On 4/19/2023 at 5:47 PM, georger said:

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

April 18, 2023

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the location at 2011 PST

recalculation of DZ ...

Whether he is right or wrong, I think his theory is
neat and outside of the box.  As far as I can tell,
he doesn't argue with the flight path, he argues
where the plane was on the flight path during the 
time line and specifically at the suspected jump
time of 8:11pm.

I'm not a radar or aviation expert, but I would think
that if he agrees with the SAGE radar derived flight
path, he would then have to somehow reconcile how
the position of the plane at a given point in time
on that flight path was that badly missed (I know that
people have stated a margin of error of 1 to 3 miles
on the "pings" on the boards in the past).  In other
words, wouldn't the radar plotted points be associated
with time? I can't remember him addressing this in his
book.  Maybe R99 has some thoughts ?

In Edwards book, (drawing from memory here), one of
the ~5 or so NWO flight ops personnel listening in 
during the hijacking had reported the position of 
the 305 significantly further south of I think the 
Battleground DME than the other flight ops personnel.
He then used that position to trace back where the 
plane would have been at the 8:11 jump time which
I believe would have been somewhere around the
Colombia River.

In Edwards latest blog post, he is using some educated 
assumptions of the plane's speed from the time it left
SEATAC to the 8:11pm jump time to calculate where
the plane would have been at 8:11pm.  He concludes
that his estimation has the plane 8.36 miles further
south of where the FBI/SAGE derived flight path had
the plane. 

So if the the original/offical jump point was somewhere
around Ariel/Lake Merwin area, 8.36 miles south roughly
somewhere in that Heisson area ?  Now, this is clearly
an estimate, he keeps his theory as a range of 6 to 12
miles. Isn't Heisson/Battlground/Ridgefield where the FBI
eventually wound up adjusting the drop zone to anyway ?

I am expecting another follow up post with some
more details from Edwards, let's see where he goes with 
it. 

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Whether he is right or wrong, I think his theory is
neat and outside of the box.  As far as I can tell,
he doesn't argue with the flight path, he argues
where the plane was on the flight path during the 
time line and specifically at the suspected jump
time of 8:11pm.

I'm not a radar or aviation expert, but I would think
that if he agrees with the SAGE radar derived flight
path, he would then have to somehow reconcile how
the position of the plane at a given point in time
on that flight path was that badly missed (I know that
people have stated a margin of error of 1 to 3 miles
on the "pings" on the boards in the past).  In other
words, wouldn't the radar plotted points be associated
with time? I can't remember him addressing this in his
book.  Maybe R99 has some thoughts ?

In Edwards book, (drawing from memory here), one of
the ~5 or so NWO flight ops personnel listening in 
during the hijacking had reported the position of 
the 305 significantly further south of I think the 
Battleground DME than the other flight ops personnel.
He then used that position to trace back where the 
plane would have been at the 8:11 jump time which
I believe would have been somewhere around the
Colombia River.

In Edwards latest blog post, he is using some educated 
assumptions of the plane's speed from the time it left
SEATAC to the 8:11pm jump time to calculate where
the plane would have been at 8:11pm.  He concludes
that his estimation has the plane 8.36 miles further
south of where the FBI/SAGE derived flight path had
the plane. 

So if the the original/offical jump point was somewhere
around Ariel/Lake Merwin area, 8.36 miles south roughly
somewhere in that Heisson area ?  Now, this is clearly
an estimate, he keeps his theory as a range of 6 to 12
miles. Isn't Heisson/Battlground/Ridgefield where the FBI
eventually wound up adjusting the drop zone to anyway ?

I am expecting another follow up post with some
more details from Edwards, let's see where he goes with 
it. 

In connection with the above, over the past couple of months Dr. Edwards' has posted several times on matters related to the flight path and made some very interesting observations.

In the very near future, I hope to post here on his observations and some related matters.  But fear not, the sun still rises in the East most days.  

[olemisscub 461]

I cleaned up the ARINC transcript so they aren't all crooked and gross looking.

ARINC-Transcript.pdf