10 10
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

I can't argue much more about this...they drop only after coming forward and not downward as the 727 allows in a single motion. it's a free fall operation only known to the 727. not sure about the DC9. the 737 or 707 doesn't have this nor is the 727 electric in any manner...I first thought it was possible but no longer agree...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I can't argue much more about this...they drop only after coming forward and not downward as the 727 allows in a single motion. it's a free fall operation only known to the 727. not sure about the DC9. the 737 or 707 doesn't have this nor is the 727 electric in any manner...I first thought it was possible but no longer agree...

True, the 727 airstair is different, the 737 folds out but you make an error..

The Hick's placard is generic and says nothing about freefall..

 

Emergency Exit Handle, Aft Airstair to Operate, Open Access Door, Pull on Red Handle. Lock Wire Will Break When Handle is Pulled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you are missing the point...the 737 stairs are not going to free fall outward as a emergency option. too many moves. the 727 has one move...that's straight down. they are not electric. they free fall. they don't have multiple ladders, just one. I fail to see where a wire handle would release the stairs on a 737. it just doesn't have the option to fall out of the side of the aircraft. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Again, the emergency handle is attached to a wire system. this releases the stairs. the 737 does not have the option to just fall out and work.

 

The airstair assembly and the airstair door are powered with 115/200 VAC, 400 Hz, 3-phase power source located on the aircraft. The airstair installation and the airstair door may also be operated with a power source of 24 to 28 VDC.
Airstair assembly consists of two rigid beams connected to the ladder assembly, which also consists of the steps, hand-rails, lights, and wheels that allow the airstairs to seat firmly on the ground when extended. This is what extends from the carriage assembly to the ground for entering or exiting the aircraft.

 

It's like saying there is no difference between a starter on a lawnmower vs a pull handle...

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Again, the emergency handle is attached to a wire system. this releases the stairs. the 737 does not have the option to just fall out and work.

 

The airstair assembly and the airstair door are powered with 115/200 VAC, 400 Hz, 3-phase power source located on the aircraft. The airstair installation and the airstair door may also be operated with a power source of 24 to 28 VDC.
Airstair assembly consists of two rigid beams connected to the ladder assembly, which also consists of the steps, hand-rails, lights, and wheels that allow the airstairs to seat firmly on the ground when extended. This is what extends from the carriage assembly to the ground for entering or exiting the aircraft.

 

It's like saying there is no difference between a starter on a lawnmower vs a pull handle...

yes, the 737 airstair does fall open.. it just has a fold in it. It s an emergency exit, it needs to have the option of opening without power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

It doesn't free fall. it's mechanical. it doesn't have the option to work without power. this was proven July 6, 1996 on a 737-200. no power, no stairs..no pulling anything to release...it's a different system. plain and simple.

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Doors are on both sides of the aircraft. the passengers and crew all got out with limited injuries. the 727 is safe as long as the wire is connected and no damage to the stairs to prevent it from free falling. 

During the evacuation, the slides at the forward entry (L1), forward galley (R1) and the aft entry (L2) doors were used. The overwing exits were not used. One passenger sustained a broken leg during his descent on the slide at the aft entry door.

 He returned to the cockpit and noted that the fire department equipment had arrived. An unsuccessful attempt was made to lower the airstairs at the main entry door. The auxiliary power unit was not started because of the lack of information regarding damage to the airplane.

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excuse me for butting in, but some obvious points:

IF the placard actually came from a 737 instead of a 727, then it doesn't matter. 

If the placard came from anywhere other than the OUTSIDE of the aircraft, chances are it came from NORJAK, because no one else that I have heard of ever popped airstairs in flight along the path of 305. 

If you break the wire, it must be replaced before it can be used in an emergency basis again. It's an emergency function on 727's. It does not require power to drop the stairs if you use it. This is seen in the NTSB report regarding the 1972 off-the-runway crash of a 727 on Yap Island. Report was already posted a couple of pages back. Report says power is not needed for the inside release emergency airstair system, but the stew and some passengers were almost killed trying to escape the burning plane because the stew kept trying the powered function instead of the no-power-required emergency system. There was no power to the jet anymore, after it crashed. So the regular system was inoperative. The NTSB says in their report that crew should be trained in how to use the emergency system, should such an event happen again. 

Luckily, they decided to head out the forward overwing emergency exits before they were overcome by the smoke and flames. All passengers and crew survived. 

Even if the placard IS from NORJAK, it doesn't prove a whole lot. It could say what everyone already knows, that the flight was on course. It could say you might be able to locate the non working reserve and the briefcase...but you would have to search a very large area due to drift of the placard. And your search area would basically be SOUTH of where the placard was discovered, because the placard would have been blown in a northerly direction. 

Other than that, it doesn't tell us much. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

The lock wire is a safeguard on the handle. once you pull the handle it will release the stairs. it also does some damage and they will no longer lock. it's a simple straight down gravity system. one single action releases them. the 737 is electric and the stairs come out of the plane from the side straight outward and then unfolds as they go down. if the APU is not engaged or is damaged the stairs will not work. the 737 has lots of escape doors with no interference to escape from. two front side doors, doors over the wings and one aft side door. no pulling of a handle will release them. 

The placard was found years later and it can't be proven it's in the original location from the evening of the hijacking if the placard came from 305. the odds have increased that it was from 305. it's an interior placard that was placed by the read door. that's the pressure door leading to the stairs. most know the controls are also by the rear door outside of the cabin.

I don't have the placard/decal/marker yet. it's in transit. I'm interested in how tough it is in order to help determine how it came off the wall and was in the condition it was when it was found. it's extremely light and would drift far greater than a briefcase or parachute. without really knowing it's original location makes it hard to really use in the investigation IMO. 

 

 

\

ExitPlacardFront.jpg

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

It's easier to understand the emergency release system if you think of it like a car on a hydraulic jack. 

You use power (pumping) to raise the car. Then the car 'locks' in place. Sort of...weird analogy, I know. 

If you turn the release on the jack, the car (stairs) will drop due to the built-up pressure in the jack itself. 

But without more power (you jacking the thing) you cannot raise the car (the stairs) back up. It's a one and done deal. The wire must be replaced and the system 'reset' as it were. 

From the NTSB report:

Quote

'After the aircraft come to rest, she attempted to open the aft pressure bulkhead door leading to the aft airstair exit. She said two passengers interfered with the opening of the door because it opens inward. When she got the door open, she attempted to open the airstair with the normal handle, but it did not operate.

She did not attempt to use the emergency extension handle for the pneumatic system because she was not aware of the system. She stated that the cabin began to fill with smoke so she shouted at the passengers attempting to use the aft airstair exit telling them to go forward.

She used empty pillowcase covers to cover her mouth and nose, as the smoke was "thick, acrid and suffocating." She noticed light coming from the forward part of the cabin and screamed for the passengers to turn and go forward. She went forward in a crouched position and exited via the aft left overwing exit. Once outside, she had difficulty in keeping the passengers moving away from the aircraft...' 

That's a hairy situation. Report says except for the cockpit area and the aft stair area, virtually all of the aircraft was destroyed by the fire, and much of the metal was warped or melted. The aircraft slid about 1700 feet before coming to rest in the jungle, off the runway. They should call it the Yap Miracle. A few minor injuries, some smoke inhalation, but everyone survived. 

CORRECTION: This crash happened in November 1980, not 1972.

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if NWO was trained in reference to the emergency option. when you open the door for the normal stairs it hides the emergency panel. the Yap accident is not the only one with poor training on the operation of the stairs. just finding the placard on a jet has been a challenge. none to date. the opening of the rear stairs during a fire can be hazardous as well causing a backdraft. might of been the best thing for that accident that they didn't open..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The FBI noticed it "missing after the flight test, not before"

"could have dropped off any passing Boeing 727"

"could have dropped from the plane during re-enactment..six weeks later"

"known to fall off on the runway"

 

The new FBI file states that there was also a test 2 days after NORJAK and decal(s) came off..

Is the FBI lying or not?? They had the blueprint location.. why say this..

 

Maybe the Boeing guy got it wrong and found decal BAC27DPA-182, instead of BAC27DPA-152.. it was also an emergency airstair decal/marker on the interior control panel but not the same as the Hick's placard.

 

placardquestioned.jpeg.1c6cb53c0922ccb37a160773c7287b13.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I don't know if NWO was trained in reference to the emergency option. when you open the door for the normal stairs it hides the emergency panel. the Yap accident is not the only one with poor training on the operation of the stairs. just finding the placard on a jet has been a challenge. none to date. the opening of the rear stairs during a fire can be hazardous as well causing a backdraft. might of been the best thing for that accident that they didn't open..

We haven't even confirmed that NWA 727's had the emergency airstairs option..

Look for the early NWA 727-100 safety card not the 727-200 one, I found only the front page...

s-l1600-12.jpg.a3853b3818d61e9b0d8b066e9044b9ed.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's well documented that on January 6, 1972 a test was done to determine the affects of the pressure changes by the crew. it wasn't done twice. this is a report from years after the fact. dated photo's back this up. they flew over the ocean. another newspaper states they were not sure they were missing after the flight. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

To date, I have not said the placard came from 305. I said the odds have increased. Boeing has verified the placard to being an interior placard.  I fail to see the placard matching any other air stair by Boeing other than possibly the DC9. I'm not sure how they operate. the 737 is entirely different all together. 

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
12 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

January 18,1979 Boeing officials confirm the placard came from the stairwell of a 727. 

1979.jpg

It was found in a bush?? 7 years later..

 

"sitting on a bush"

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

I see two conflicting newspaper reports, a single day apart. 

Hicks 'led' the initial search for Cooper? First I have heard of that. Think of the odds he would find a placard from the Cooper jet years later while hunting...after he allegedly led the search down by Ariel. 

He should have played the lottery on a regular basis.

Then you have one report saying the placard was made of plastic. 

Then you have Hicks saying he folded it into his pocket. 

Picture of the placard...hard to tell for sure...but it does look like it was made of plastic. The missing corner piece, the cracks in it that look more like cracked plastic than vinyl or paper. I dunno...the whole thing is screwy. No wonder they never caught Cooper. 

NorjakToon.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
9 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I see two conflicting newspaper reports, a single day apart. 

Hicks 'led' the initial search for Cooper? First I have heard of that. Think of the odds he would find a placard from the Cooper jet years later while hunting...after he allegedly led the search down by Ariel. 

He should have played the lottery on a regular basis.

 

Hick's led the search for Cooper in 1971..  He knew the flightpath and the location he claimed was virtually right under it.

The sheriff was his neighbour..

This thing is OUTTA CONTROL NOW..

 

I had speculated earlier that Hick's may have lied about it, maybe it was ripped off a 727 as a souvenir.. 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I never noticed that until I read it again after posting it. I also find it odd that Boeing would claim turbulence caused it to come off. it's documented that hardly any disturbance was in the stairwell while the stairs were down. 

open.png

If you look at the Hick's decal, based on the tears it looks like it came off from the top down slightly left to right..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's impossible to determine anything. we don't know what the placard looked like if it left that plane fully intact, ripped off the wall or was damaged on the ground . seven years past before it was found. was the wall flat or textured (rough surface) where it was attached..too many variables..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's impossible to determine anything. we don't know what the placard looked like if it left that plane fully intact, ripped off the wall or was damaged on the ground . seven years past before it was found. was the wall flat or textured (rough surface) where it was attached..too many variables..

The most frustrating thing are those holes,, a decal doesn't need to be mounted, the 727 interior decals do not have "fasteners"... it is a big clue for the history of that decal..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's impossible to determine anything. we don't know what the placard looked like if it left that plane fully intact, ripped off the wall or was damaged on the ground . seven years past before it was found. was the wall flat or textured (rough surface) where it was attached..too many variables..

Exactly. One indirect way to tell if Hicks lied about where he found the placard is to determine WHERE the jet was AT when the airstairs light first flashed for the flight engineer. If that point is more than two minutes flying time further south (six miles or so) from the location of the placard, this would negate drift arrival, and leave only two possibilities.

  • Hicks lied about where he found the placard, or lied about how he acquired it. Then nothing about it is real, or can be trusted.
  • The placard was posted to the OUTSIDE of the aircraft from where it came, and could have come off any jet that had the same placard. 

Leading the search and then miraculously finding the placard miles north...years later...is dicey at best. 

Or:  Hicks just said he led the search when he was just a participant in it, and is telling the truth about the placard find. Frankly, it's a mess all around I think. And to think I was planning to spend the money to lead a search in the same area. Oh, brother. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
10 10