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DB Cooper

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(edited)
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'January 19, 1979, 

"The FBI, however, said the placard, posted on the outside of the jetliner, could have dropped off almost any 727 that flew over southwest Washington during the past eight years."

The FBI had the blueprint location of the placard.. They would not make that statement if they knew the "placard" came from inside the stairway...'

Okay. 

But you will have to determine whether an EMERGENCY release existed on the outside of the aircraft, one that warns the wire will be broken. Because that is part of what it says on the placard. 

You have to determine if the emergency release control was also accessible from the OUTSIDE of the aircraft. If not...then the placard came from the inside somewhere. Without an exterior emergency release, there would be no need to install such a placard (like the one Hicks found) on the exterior of the jet. The words 'emergenccy' and 'break wire' are tells. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Okay. 

But you will have to determine whether an EMERGENCY release existed on the outside of the aircraft, one that warns the wire will be broken. Because that is part of what it says on the placard. 

You have to determine if the emergency release control was also accessible from the OUTSIDE of the aircraft. If not...then the placard came from the inside somewhere. Without an exterior emergency release, there would be no need to install such a placard (like the one Hicks found) on the exterior of the jet. The words 'emergenccy' and 'break wire' are tells. 

Yes, there was a second emergency release on the exterior.

NO, I haven't found the matching decal.

 

727, later version.

727_33-1.jpg.606d3314266e4009cecd4c1e82240d37.jpg

1744141838_727_472.jpg.3dbe05a49c37e95ec31834e031de4235.jpg

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12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

An excerpt from THIS NTSB report about a 727 that missed the runway and crashed into the jungle on the island of Yap, which is somewhat near Guam. From 1980, I think. Shows that the stews DID have a 'regular' method of dropping the stairs, plus an emergency system should the hydraulics fail. (All survived) This was a Continental Airlines flight, and the report notes that stews were trained in using the normal release method, but not the emergency method:

The NTSB report also notes that Continental actually used a mock-up of the airstair release system to train stews how to use it. This indicates to me that yes...it was probably a stewardess who released the stairs (normal mode) when deplaning. After this accident, Continental stews were given additional training on how to use the emergency release system as well. 

I've read that Cooper knowing about how the stairs worked meant that he had inside knowledge of the 727.  If the stewardesses operated the stairs, then how would his knowledge be so uncommon?

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3 minutes ago, BParker said:

I've read that Cooper knowing about how the stairs worked meant that he had inside knowledge of the 727.  If the stewardesses operated the stairs, then how would his knowledge be so uncommon?

He didn't have airstair knowledge, Tina showed him how to operate them. The FBI files note that exit instructions were sent to the plane..

Cooper had aviation knowledge, not 727 knowledge.

 

The plane loaded in Portland via the rear airstairs, Cooper was the second to last to board.

No indication who closed them but they are usually closed from outside by ground crew.

Exit instructions were sent to the plane. Cooper opened the rear airstair and the plane landed with the door partially open and dragging. 

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3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He didn't have airstair knowledge, Tina showed him how to operate them. The FBI files note that exit instructions were sent to the plane..

Cooper had aviation knowledge, not 727 knowledge.

 

The plane loaded in Portland via the rear airstairs, Cooper was the second to last to board.

No indication who closed them but they are usually closed from outside by ground crew.

Exit instructions were sent to the plane. Cooper opened the rear airstair and the plane landed with the door partially open and dragging. 

Ok.  He was second to last to board? How did he get the seat he wanted?  What if those seats were taken, would he have just called this thing off?

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(edited)

Additional info..

The Hick's placard text "OPEN ACCESS DOOR",, the 727 internal emergency release instructions is to remove access door. It detaches completely. The exterior has an access door.

Further, Northwest employees took the plane out 2 days after the hijacking to check out the pressure bump. They noticed decals had come off and speculated that they may have come off in a similar fashion with NORJAK.

 

This doesn't make sense, if the decals came off during NORJAK they would have to be replaced in the two days to fall off again. That would have been noted and known.

The plane was inspected in Reno and nobody noticed any missing decal.

twodaytest.jpeg.26d13cdc6621dc905aeaa7d3fa4e74f5.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 minutes ago, BParker said:

Ok.  He was second to last to board? How did he get the seat he wanted?  What if those seats were taken, would he have just called this thing off?

The plane was fairly empty so he had lots of seats to choose from. Later, the stews moved everybody further up toward the front.

 

Hahneman first flew from NY to PA to hijack another plane he thought had a light passenger load and less chance of Air Marshals. 

Cooper may have selected 305 for the same reasons.. light passenger load and less likely to have Air Marshals.

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12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The plane was fairly empty so he had lots of seats to choose from. Later, the stews moved everybody further up toward the front.

 

Hahneman first flew from NY to PA to hijack another plane he thought had a light passenger load and less chance of Air Marshals. 

Cooper may have selected 305 for the same reasons.. light passenger load and less likely to have Air Marshals.

When you say he had lots of seats to choose from., didn't he need a seat in the far back so that there was no one behind him?  Seems to me that he would have had a specific seat picked out, and by boarding at the end he was risking not getting to sit where he wanted.

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Well, he probably chose an empty row as far back as possible when he entered. After the hijacking was initiated the stews moved the passengers forward, if he didn't happen to have the rear row initially he could have moved back then.

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(edited)

Mostly, I try to avoid discussing the possible roles of Ken Christiansen and his friend Bernie Geestman in the Cooper hijacking. And frankly...there are some things I cannot tell you because I no longer own the rights to that information. At least until they either decide to make the darn movie, or finally stop paying on the yearly option. 

That said, there ARE a couple of things I can tell you because they have already been filmed elsewhere. Specifically for the upcoming movie by Minnow Films out of London, the one titled The Mystery of D.B. Cooper. (All I can tell you about the release of this picture is that they are wrapped and out of post production. It will probably start out as a limited release to some theaters, and at film festivals. This was told to me by director John Dower.)

One of the more interesting bits is the filmed testimony of the lady shown below in the picture. Her name is Denise, and she is *alleged* accomplice Bernie Geestman's niece. She first came forward to me second-hand through her son back in 2012, and we eventually met up at a restaurant in Sumner, WA. She claims to have seen Christiansen constructing a phony bomb in her uncle's garage just two weeks prior to the hijacking. But it wasn't until late 2018 when I finally convinced her to go on the record with the Dower film. She sat in the front seat of Gayla Prociv's Nissan Pathfinder, while I sat on the drivers side. Director Dower and the camera guy sat in the back shooting the whole thing, which went on for close to an hour. This is the three of us (Denise, her son, and yours truly) outside after the shoot:

SimpleStory2.jpg

This is her story in a nutshell:  Denise says that when she was 13 years old, she and her siblings, and her mother, were living with the Geestman couple. And at that time, she walked into her uncle's garage and saw Kenny working on something. She said he was taking rolls of quarters, wrapping them with red electrical tape, and had a large round storage battery beside all this. He was also attaching wires to the rolls. 

When she asked him what he was doing, he told her he was making a 'battery storage device,' and then told her she wasn't supposed to be in there while he was working. 

The really tricky part about all this is that it is hard NOT to believe her story. She comes across as simple, honest, country folk for the most part. Her son was there as well, and he claimed mom wasn't lying. 

She was very reluctant to go on camera, and refused any payment for doing so, which in my opinion, added to her sincerity. What possible motive could she have for driving out to the Eatonville Public Library just to lie for a movie? It took me five years just to talk her into giving her testimony. But at the start, when she and her family met me at the restaurant, they said they had information linking Bernie Geestman ('Uncle Bernie' they called him) to the Cooper Caper, but were unwilling to go public because he was still alive. But after Bernie died, then I was able to talk them into going public. 

I will let people judge her testimony on the merits for themselves when the movie comes out. She also gives additional testimony for the Dower film, but I can't discuss that. When the movie finally is released, I plan to pick up a copy at Amazon. 

Also featured in the film are Bruce Smith, the Forman couple, Lyle Christiansen, and others. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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'...even though he wasn't alive during the time in question and would have no way of knowing if mom was lying or not.'

It was a family matter. None of them asked for a cent, and went far and above to assist in (maybe) solving the case. The only way to judge her testimony fairly is to see it for yourself. Dismissing it out of hand without actually hearing it is senseless. 

As other Cooper folk have found out here and there, I am not easily swayed by baloney and will speak out against it, even if it makes me an unpopular figure with some other people in Cooperland. I have said before that the investigation into the Cooper case isn't a popularity contest. It's an investigation. You present the evidence as you find it, on subjects both directly related to the case, and anything that surrounds it...right up to the present day. 

When the movie comes out, you will have to judge for yourself whether Denise is lying, just like everyone else. 

EDIT: Right now I am creating a short video addressed directly to the more known people in Cooperland. Nothing bad, but maybe a life lesson for all of us. Set to the music of a Cat Stevens song. ;)

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

I have created a short video for fans...and especially INVESTIGATORS...of the Cooper case. My thanks to Cat Stevens and the Paramount film, Harold and Maude. 

I don't know if you've ever seen that film, but everyone can learn a life lesson from it. ;)

Undoubtedly, YouTube will monetize it for the copyright owners, but they won't object to it. I am okay with that policy. Best viewed by selecting the hi-def 1080 setting. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

As other Cooper folk have found out here and there, I am not easily swayed by baloney

 

Au contraire mon frere, there has been plenty of "baloney" that you were easily swayed by. We don't need to revisit those things, but they are all on these pages for anyone who wants to see for themselves.

As for miss Denise, it's not as simple as she's either lying or she's not. You like to make it out to be that simple, but the reality is a little more complex. It's more a case of me not trusting her memories than it is me thinking she is lying. Plus, when people start coming around asking about Kenny and Bernie, it's easy to remember something and make it out to be much more than it was. For example, she has this random memory. She has no way of remembering if that random memory was before or after the hijacking. If you say she can remember that, I'm calling bullshit on that one.

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2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

 

Au contraire mon frere, there has been plenty of "baloney" that you were easily swayed by. We don't need to revisit those things, but they are all on these pages for anyone who wants to see for themselves.

As for miss Denise, it's not as simple as she's either lying or she's not. You like to make it out to be that simple, but the reality is a little more complex. It's more a case of me not trusting her memories than it is me thinking she is lying. Plus, when people start coming around asking about Kenny and Bernie, it's easy to remember something and make it out to be much more than it was. For example, she has this random memory. She has no way of remembering if that random memory was before or after the hijacking. If you say she can remember that, I'm calling bullshit on that one.

You make a lot of assumptions on a situation where you were not there, didn't meet the person involved, or even hear the testimony. (yet)

Shakespeare would probably have something to say about that, if he were still around to hear you. B| 

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(edited)

What assumptions am I making Robert? I'm simply saying that I don't trust a 40 plus year old memory, especially where fine details are concerned.

I'm 53 years old and I can remember quite a few things from my childhood, some things better than others. I also remember where I was and what I was doing when the news hit that Elvis had died. However, I can't tell you if any of the things that I can remember were before or after Elvis died. That's too damn long ago to be able to do that. 

Also, Shakespeare was an idiot, so his thoughts about me would not concern me a great deal.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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13 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

What assumptions am I making Robert? I'm simply saying that I don't trust a 40 plus year old memory, especially where fine details are concerned.

I'm 53 years old and I can remember quite a few things from my childhood, some things better than others. I also remember where I was and what I was doing when the news hit that Elvis had died. However, I can't tell you if any of the things that I can remember were before or after Elvis died. That's too damn long ago to be able to do that. 

Also, Shakespeare was an idiot, so his thoughts about me would not concern me a great deal.

Well, it's eyewitness testimony. Don't know what to say about that except SHE believes it. Whether others will when the movie comes out, I can't say. Your opinion is noted. 

Shakespeare an idiot? For an idiot, he sure has a lot of fans 500 years later. They keep performing his work, discussing it endlessly, and people keep flocking to it.  I think he's okay. 

Quote

'Love me or hate me, both are in my favor. If you love me, I'll always be in your heart. If you hate me, I'll always be in your mind...'

EDIT: The above quote has been attributed to Shakespeare at different times. At other times people have claimed he didn't say it. But he should have. ;) Or COULD have. 

For Shutter: A correction. I said late 2021 release in the PM. I meant 2020, which is next year of course. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Just to clear a few things up regarding the placard. Boeing has been contacted and the decal/placard/marker was not on the outside of the aircraft the location was outside by the pressurized bulkhead door. that's the stairwell. it has adhesive on the back as I suspected.

Several have been ordered and some of us will be receiving one shortly thanks to Eric. he also contacted Boeing...

 As far I know the controls are in two places in the stairwell and two places under the fuselage. the stairs has a large box with a door leading to a stick or handle for the normal release. the emergency handle is behind a small panel you pull off to access the handle to release the stairs if they don't go down..

The exterior has a door by the strike plate to access the controls. one is a lever for normal functions and then a pump handle to operate the stairs if the hydraulics fail. a larger rectangle placard is clearly visible on the door under the fuselage. the aircraft has two hydraulics (A&B) the stairs operate off of hydraulic B. 

Why the FBI stated what they said in the newspaper is not clearly known. perhaps they assumed when NWO told them it "was outside by the rear door"  thought it meant outside on the fuselage. another thing not clear is the lack of documentation surrounding the missing placard. this is only documented after the find in 1978. they believe it came off during testing that occurred on January 6, 1972 but go further saying they were not sure. that would imply two placards were put on 305 after the hijacking...

Edited by mrshutter45

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(edited)

The placard/decal is NOT a heavy plastic nothing. it weighs next to nothing. even if Cooper tossed the chute at the sametime the two would be miles apart. it's very similar to what I suspected being like a bumper sticker...how it got off the wall is not known at this time. I doubt pressure would cause it to come off..

Edited by mrshutter45

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16 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

The placard/decal is NOT a heavy plastic nothing. it weighs next to nothing. even if Cooper tossed the chute at the sametime the two would be miles apart. it's very similar to what I suspected being like a bumper sticker...how it got off the wall is not known at this time. I doubt pressure would cause it to come off..

Sounds to me like no one knows much of anything regarding the placard. Not for sure, anyway. This is worse than what is known about the money found at Tina Bar. 

In the end, maybe the placard is just a write-off, and can be considered zero evidence. At best. 

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apparently, you don't read very well? I've documented exactly what is going on.

1) Confirmed the placard goes in the stairwell

2) Established it's weight.

3) Explained the controls.

4) Explained the different placards.

5) It's not an exterior type placard even thought the stairs are considered outside they are protected.

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(edited)

This is how you investigate things. it's very boring and time consuming. the myth is busted that it goes outside or on another aircraft. the myth is busted it was heavy. the odds increase that it's from 305, not conclusive but greater. 

Edited by mrshutter45

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(edited)

The hand pump is irrelevant, they all had that. How is the myth busted that it could be from another aircraft??

 

I have to give credit to Eric Ulis for contacting Boeing..

"He just called back after about two hours of research and stated it is an interior placard affixed on the inside by the aft door.”

Unfortunately, I have to take it back for his abuse of critical thinking..

We still don’t have enough info to claim the Hick’s placard came from Cooper. 

The 727 series has an aft entry and aft exit door (rear side)…  which one.. we’ll assume the rear but this needs clarification.


There are still some issues that need to be sorted.

 

The new info from FBI files..

The Hick’s placard part number is Boeing BAC27DPA152 … listed for (707, 727, 737) 

A NWA crew took the plane up for testing 2 days after the hijacking and claimed they lost decal(s).

A second decal was found which according to NWA employees is 99% the same type from a NWA 727, we don’t know which decal this one is.

 

The facts:

The FBI claimed the Hick’s decal could have fallen from any passing 727 or from the test two days later. They have more info than we do, why make that claim??

The 727 passenger variant has two different emergency airstair systems and at least three different decals. The normal system doesn’t match the Hick’s placard text and that decal is a different part number, you push the main lever outward. The other is an optional separate emergency release mechanism. This one has an outer door with finger holes which is completely removed, that decal does not match the Hick’s placard. Behind that door is a flange which is broken off to access a red handle which is pulled inward. That almost matches the Hick’s placard but not exactly. the Hick’s placard says "open access door” all documentation says “Pull door inward. To release stairs, break plastic flange and pull red handle." 

We don’t know which system the NORJAK plane had and we don’t know which 727 variant had the Hick’s placard type. It does not match the normal system and isn’t a perfect match for the optional system. These are the only two systems documented for commercial passenger 727’s. There were many other 727 variants.

The Hick’s placard has tear holes in the corners. No internal decals found have those holes.. including the other emergency release decals.

First, we need to determine which plane variants had that decal, where exactly they were located and how they were mounted. 707?, 737? and whether the Norjak plane had that decal type and exactly where it was mounted..

Second, the FBI comments are odd and inconsistent. If the plane was tested two days later and some decals came off, for them to come off during NORJAK they had to be replaced and that would be noted. They claim the decal may have come from that test?

It is a light decal, vinyl/plastic. (Why the tear holes?)

 

Conclusions..

 

There are several possibilities, 

The Hick’s placard type was never used on the NORJAK 727 variant and came from another 727 variant or perhaps a 737. (had an optional side aft airstair)

 

If NORJAK did have that decal type..

The Hick’s placard came off during the test two days later.

or

The FBI is lying to protect confidential info that only Cooper would know. The FBI docs do not indicate any missing decals or access panels in Reno after inspections. If NORJAK had that decal the only place it would be is behind the outer optional emergency access panel..  it would be attached to a flange inside which is completely removed to access the “red handle”. Perhaps, Cooper did pull the optional emergency system and the FBI is hiding that info. If he did then the placard would have been attached to a plastic break away panel slightly larger than the decal. That would mean the decal came out of the plane attached to a "heavy" plastic panel. This was my first “guess” regarding the Hick’s placard. However, the FBI would have to be lying here as they would know if the emergency handle cover was pulled or accessed.

 

and as I previously pointed out,, Eric and Robert’s placard drift calculations were self serving garbage..

My calcs were a drop at 2-3 ft/sec, that is for the decal only, no plastic panel and the range accounting for the decal possibly missing 1/3rd from altitude..  the wind direction and speed at that location is not known contrary to Eric and Robert’s assertions. It is a guess and the variable assumptions involved make a drift calculation meaningless. If it were still attached to the panel then descent rate changes dramatically.

 

Eric and Robert will continue to spin this into an alternate flight path narrative, none of the placard evidence indicates that, NONE.

Edited by FLYJACK

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