DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

10 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Tina first brought one of the main (big, to use her words) chutes, then both chest packs, then the final main. Cooper was already fooling with the good chest pack when she brought the final main. 

Cossey's original descriptions were correct. No idea why he changed it. These are both from Nov 71.

 

The original description of the chute Cooper used was olive drab with tan cotton harness. 

Cossey claimed his NB6/8 was sage green nylon container and harness..

The 302 above was based on an in person interview with Cossey on the 26th.. when Cossey would have been aware that the chutes were from Hayden and he was the rigger.

Cossey must have talked to the FBI before that interview. There is a 302 that states they were tying to get a hold of him on the 25th but couldn't up to 3:30.. but I suspect they talked to him by phone before that in person interview.

 

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The original description of the chute Cooper used was olive drab with tan cotton harness. 

Cossey claimed his NB6/8 was sage green nylon container and harness..

 

Yeah, I guess I was mainly referring to Cossey being correct about them both being emergency chutes before he pivots to the “he didn’t choose the comfy civilian chute” BS.

As far as I can tell there’s no reason to ever look for a further description of the chutes in the 302’s beyond that first 302 from Hayden. That appears to be the most accurate description.

[georger 197]

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 22, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the "Air Force map" revisited

The "D. B. Cooper" files in the FBI Vault contain at least six references to a map of the flight path, in five cases explicitly attributed to the US Air Force. These references make it clear that the map was created no later than November 26, 1971 (two days after the hijacking). The references read:

 

December 23, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the "sled test" revisited

In the "sled test" flight of January 6, 1972, the FBI, with the assistance of Northwest Airlines and the US Air Force, attempted to replicate the aerodynamic effects of the hijacker's jump from Flight 305.

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, georger said:

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 22, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the "Air Force map" revisited

The "D. B. Cooper" files in the FBI Vault contain at least six references to a map of the flight path, in five cases explicitly attributed to the US Air Force. These references make it clear that the map was created no later than November 26, 1971 (two days after the hijacking). The references read:

 

December 23, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the "sled test" revisited

In the "sled test" flight of January 6, 1972, the FBI, with the assistance of Northwest Airlines and the US Air Force, attempted to replicate the aerodynamic effects of the hijacker's jump from Flight 305.

Dr. Edward's posts related to the flight path and jump area have some very interesting and perhaps surprising consequences.  I hope to post on this before the end of next week, but I need to go back to some posts that started in 2010.  Stay tuned.  

[georger 197]

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 27, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the "cowboy"

The identity of the "Cowboy" and any FBI files related to him; the passenger Cooper may have had an altercation with ? 

[olemisscub 466]

Just realized that Nancy House was only 24 at the time of the hijacking. For some reason I always imagined her being an older lady, I suppose due to the name Nancy sounding like an old school name to me. 

[olemisscub 466]

I believe this interview to be Michael Cooper's. Missoula is the only city that fits the redactions and he's the only Missoula passenger whose name fits along with the story. Charles Street's name fits but he was on a business trip with Arnold Andvik and Charles Truitt for the General Services Administration in Seattle, so he wasn't just passing through. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by olemisscub

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I believe this interview to be Michael Cooper's. Missoula is the only city that fits the redactions and he's the only Missoula passenger whose name fits along with the story. Charles Street's name fits but he was on a business trip with Arnold Andvik and Charles Truitt for the General Services Administration in Seattle, so he wasn't just passing through. 

Its somewhat amazing to me that nobody caught on to the fact a hijacking was happening ? Some said later they knew something was wrong. One passenger said he knew it was a hijacking? But Gregory right next to Cooper did not connect the dots? 

Cooper could have waited until they landed and passengers were off, then announce a hijacking? But Cooper had a different timeline for some reason, that required announcing early. He evidently was ready to accept the risk. 

Ive never been impressed with Cooper's 'tactical;' savvy, or lack of same. A number of military people Ive known pointed that out. Cooper was depending on his bomb to keep people off his back after announcing a hijacking early, even as he expressed great concern over 'sky marshals' being on the flight ?  I believe this is one of the reasons Carr profiles Cooper as an 'amateur' ?   It may mean Cooper did not have a military background because his actions were not tactically sound - he left openings you could drive a truck through.  His concern about 'sky marshals' was irrelevant because of his own actions and plan! It questions Cooper's management skills.

Edited December 28, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

Its somewhat amazing to me that nobody caught on to the fact a hijacking was happening ? Some said later they knew something was wrong. One passenger said he knew it was a hijacking? But Gregory right next to Cooper did not connect the dots? 

Cooper could have waited until they landed and passengers were off, then announce a hijacking? But Cooper had a different timeline for some reason, that required announcing early. He evidently was ready to accept the risk. 

Ive never been impressed with Cooper's 'tactical;' savvy, or lack of same. A number of military people Ive known pointed that out. Cooper was depending on his bomb to keep people off his back after announcing a hijacking early, even as he expressed great concern over 'sky marshals' being on the flight ?  I believe this is one of the reasons Carr profiles Cooper as an 'amateur' ?   It may mean Cooper did not have a military background because his actions were not tactically sound - he left openings you could drive a truck through.  

Good stuff. His timing is odd as well. Rat says that Tina was ringing the emergency chimes right as they were nosing off the ground. So before Tina hits the chimes she had to be handed the note from Flo and have enough time to process it, before that she had to have had enough time to see Flo looking odd and to go inquire about it, before that Flo had to have sat down by Cooper and been shown the bomb, before that Flo would have buckled up and been seated when Cooper turns around and tells her to read the note, before that Flo would have been walking around, and finally before that Cooper hands her the note. So between Cooper initially handing her the note and the plane nosing off the ground there had to be at the very least 2 or 3 minutes. What if Flo read the note immediately and screamed in terror alerting everyone? What would Cooper have done then? They'd have still been on the ground in Portland when all that took place. Why wouldn't he have just waited to give her the note when he was certain they were off the ground?

I also think some of the language Cooper used speaks to "phony tough guy" as opposed to "actual tough guy". His stuff like "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" just sounds like movie lingo. I doubt some actual badass like Braden would have said such a thing. Also, as you mentioned, Cooper apparently had this fear of air marshals. This tells me he was a bit timid. Again, I doubt a Braden-type would have been vocally concerned about such a thing. 

[georger 197]

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Good stuff. His timing is odd as well. Rat says that Tina was ringing the emergency chimes right as they were nosing off the ground. So before Tina hits the chimes she had to be handed the note from Flo and have enough time to process it, before that she had to have had enough time to see Flo looking odd and to go inquire about it, before that Flo had to have sat down by Cooper and been shown the bomb, before that Flo would have buckled up and been seated when Cooper turns around and tells her to read the note, before that Flo would have been walking around, and finally before that Cooper hands her the note. So between Cooper initially handing her the note and the plane nosing off the ground there had to be at the very least 2 or 3 minutes. What if Flo read the note immediately and screamed in terror alerting everyone? What would Cooper have done then? They'd have still been on the ground in Portland when all that took place. Why wouldn't he have just waited to give her the note when he was certain they were off the ground?

I also think some of the language Cooper used speaks to "phony tough guy" as opposed to "actual tough guy". His stuff like "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" just sounds like movie lingo. I doubt some actual badass like Braden would have said such a thing. Also, as you mentioned, Cooper apparently had this fear of air marshals. This tells me he was a bit timid. Again, I doubt a Braden-type would have been vocally concerned about such a thing. 

 

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Good stuff. His timing is odd as well. Rat says that Tina was ringing the emergency chimes right as they were nosing off the ground. So before Tina hits the chimes she had to be handed the note from Flo and have enough time to process it, before that she had to have had enough time to see Flo looking odd and to go inquire about it, before that Flo had to have sat down by Cooper and been shown the bomb, before that Flo would have buckled up and been seated when Cooper turns around and tells her to read the note, before that Flo would have been walking around, and finally before that Cooper hands her the note. So between Cooper initially handing her the note and the plane nosing off the ground there had to be at the very least 2 or 3 minutes. What if Flo read the note immediately and screamed in terror alerting everyone? What would Cooper have done then? They'd have still been on the ground in Portland when all that took place. Why wouldn't he have just waited to give her the note when he was certain they were off the ground?

I also think some of the language Cooper used speaks to "phony tough guy" as opposed to "actual tough guy". His stuff like "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" just sounds like movie lingo. I doubt some actual badass like Braden would have said such a thing. Also, as you mentioned, Cooper apparently had this fear of air marshals. This tells me he was a bit timid. Again, I doubt a Braden-type would have been vocally concerned about such a thing. 

This is all very important if not crucial imho. The very first account I got back in the day, was from a military person who told me: " Some HIPPIE has hijacked a plane in Washington and is going to parachute into the wilderness with $200k"  -- coupled with laughter.

I replied: "Maybe he's from Madison (Wisconsin)".

Edited December 28, 2022 by georger

[georger 197]

13 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Good stuff. His timing is odd as well. Rat says that Tina was ringing the emergency chimes right as they were nosing off the ground. So before Tina hits the chimes she had to be handed the note from Flo and have enough time to process it, before that she had to have had enough time to see Flo looking odd and to go inquire about it, before that Flo had to have sat down by Cooper and been shown the bomb, before that Flo would have buckled up and been seated when Cooper turns around and tells her to read the note, before that Flo would have been walking around, and finally before that Cooper hands her the note. So between Cooper initially handing her the note and the plane nosing off the ground there had to be at the very least 2 or 3 minutes. What if Flo read the note immediately and screamed in terror alerting everyone? What would Cooper have done then? They'd have still been on the ground in Portland when all that took place. Why wouldn't he have just waited to give her the note when he was certain they were off the ground?

I also think some of the language Cooper used speaks to "phony tough guy" as opposed to "actual tough guy". His stuff like "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" just sounds like movie lingo. I doubt some actual badass like Braden would have said such a thing. Also, as you mentioned, Cooper apparently had this fear of air marshals. This tells me he was a bit timid. Again, I doubt a Braden-type would have been vocally concerned about such a thing. 

I agree with your analysis. "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" just sounds like movie lingo. Its comical.

Cooper said he wanted things ready when he got to Seattle. Sluggo estimated normal turn-around time was 30-45 minutes on the ground. He might have had a deadline to meet, an accomplice waiting, and wanted some twilight left ? 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 hours ago, georger said:

I agree with your analysis. "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" just sounds like movie lingo. Its comical.

Cooper said he wanted things ready when he got to Seattle. Sluggo estimated normal turn-around time was 30-45 minutes on the ground. He might have had a deadline to meet, an accomplice waiting, and wanted some twilight left ? 

"No funny stuff or I'll do the job" always sounded odd.. The "job" should be successfully hijacking the plane, in that phrase the "job" is blowing up the plane and people.. it doesn't make sense. The "job" in that context is a failure..

Portland sunset was 4:33 Nov 24, 1971.. 

Cooper wanted a night jump, the 5:00 PM demand plus turnaround is well beyond civil twilight end and about Nautical twilight end..

These times are purely technical based on the angle of the sun but due to the overcast weather at the time it would have become dark even faster after sunset. Astronomical twilight is irrelevant here.

Cooper planned a night jump.. otherwise he would have taken a much earlier plane.

 

[georger 197]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

"No funny stuff or I'll do the job" always sounded odd.. The "job" should be successfully hijacking the plane, in that phrase the "job" is blowing up the plane and people.. it doesn't make sense. The "job" in that context is a failure..

Portland sunset was 4:33 Nov 24, 1971.. 

Cooper wanted a night jump, the 5:00 PM demand plus turnaround is well beyond civil twilight end and about Nautical twilight end..

These times are purely technical based on the angle of the sun but due to the overcast weather at the time it would have become dark even faster after sunset. Astronomical twilight is irrelevant here.

Cooper planned a night jump.. otherwise he would have taken a much earlier plane.

 

There was a Moon that evening. ......................   why dont we just default to R99s mandate whatever that currently is.

BTW, the battery in his bomb supplies standard voltage to lanterns of the day if he had one, in addition to any flares he has. Sounds like he might have 6+ flares in addition to battery power ?

Edited December 29, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

Moon phase.

[georger 197]

Question: In an emergency, can Cooper enter the stairwell and close and LOCK the door behind him, to isolate himself from the cabin?  Then bail off the stairs at his pleasure?

[FLYJACK 654]

Strange.. in 1996 after the Cooper Vane.. and it opened 2 ft..

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jan/18/twa-jets-door-drops-open-at-35000-feet/

A stairwell on a TWA jet popped open during a flight, and a crew member with a tether around his waist to keep him from being swept out had to pull the hatch closed. None of the 72 people aboard were hurt.

The Boeing 727 was flying at 35,000 feet, at least 100 miles from its destination of San Antonio Tuesday night when a cockpit light indicated the rear stairway under the tail was open. The crew discovered it had dropped about 2 feet.

A bulkhead door between the stairway and the passenger compartment prevented the cabin from losing air pressure.

The captain took the plane down to 3,000 feet to permit a crew member to reach behind the bulkhead door, grab the stairway handle and pull the stairs shut, said TWA spokesman John McDonald said.

Edited December 30, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Question: In an emergency, can Cooper enter the stairwell and close and LOCK the door behind him, to isolate himself from the cabin?  Then bail off the stairs at his pleasure?

The bulkhead door could definitely be locked from the outside. They would often leave these planes overnight on the tarmac with the aft stairs down. That tells me that they must have had a way to lock the bulkhead door to prevent thieves or whatever. It may have been literal keys because I believe there were actual keys that could unlock the stairs from the outside. Perhaps the same set of keys unlocked both?

[Robert99 37]

9 hours ago, georger said:

There was a Moon that evening. ......................   why dont we just default to R99s mandate whatever that currently is.

BTW, the battery in his bomb supplies standard voltage to lanterns of the day if he had one, in addition to any flares he has. Sounds like he might have 6+ flares in addition to battery power ?

Georger, don't you deliver orations from time to time about your alleged knowledge of space and the known and unknown universe?

Perhaps you remember something being mentioned on this and other sites about the weather in the Pacific Northwest the evening of the hijacking.  If you don't remember, let me refresh your memory.  Numerous sources claim that it was raining and that there were several cloud layers plus an overcast (actually, "undercast" in this instance) below the airliner's altitude of 10,000 feet.

Further, the there are reports from the flight crew, as well as FBI files, that the airliner was flying in the "soup" (meaning clouds) and rain at their 10,000-foot altitude.  This means that there were also clouds above the airliner that were producing the rain.  So the moon didn't produce light or anything else that aided Cooper in the hijacking since he couldn't see it.

But fear not, the moon was orbiting the earth in 1971 and the last time I noticed, which was a few days ago, is doing the same thing today.  Isn't that amazing?       

[FLYJACK 654]

Ulis gets ambushed... Interviewer tried to tie 9/11 to DB Cooper... 

Half way through interview goes sideways..

 

[georger 197]

12 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, don't you deliver orations from time to time about your alleged knowledge of space and the known and unknown universe?

Perhaps you remember something being mentioned on this and other sites about the weather in the Pacific Northwest the evening of the hijacking.  If you don't remember, let me refresh your memory.  Numerous sources claim that it was raining and that there were several cloud layers plus an overcast (actually, "undercast" in this instance) below the airliner's altitude of 10,000 feet.

Further, the there are reports from the flight crew, as well as FBI files, that the airliner was flying in the "soup" (meaning clouds) and rain at their 10,000-foot altitude.  This means that there were also clouds above the airliner that were producing the rain.  So the moon didn't produce light or anything else that aided Cooper in the hijacking since he couldn't see it.

But fear not, the moon was orbiting the earth in 1971 and the last time I noticed, which was a few days ago, is doing the same thing today.  Isn't that amazing?       

Huh !?   WTF is your problem ?

Edited December 30, 2022 by georger

[georger 197]

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 30, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: diatoms

"This raises the possibility that if the $20 bill, after its discovery, had ever been washed or rinsed in river water or even tap water, it could have acquired the diatoms that were found in 2020. In my Chapter 12, I wrote that I had needed to assume that the bill and the diatoms had not met up in this way. "

"In my mind, therefore, there is no reason to exclude the arrival of the money in some Northwestern waterway on the night of the hijacking."

I read Edwards saying he does not support conclusions TK has made regarding diatoms found on Cooper money. I read Edwards as saying TK's diatom research is not comprehensive or correct in that it does not consider all of the options available in the diatoms-money matter. 

Edwards asks if diatoms on the money could not have come from tap water in the Ingram apartment washing scenario, vs exposure to Columbia river water at Tena Bar !  In other words TK's controls are lacking and do not warrant the conclusions TK made.  

*In other words:  when is a diatom a tap water diatom vs. a Columbia River diatom ?  And precisely where was Cooper money exposed to - diatoms ! TK has failed to identify the source of Cooper money diatoms and when TK says 'the money was buried in the Spring based on diatoms' - TK's research does not prove that conclusion !

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

"In my mind, therefore, there is no reason to exclude the arrival of the money in some Northwestern waterway on the night of the hijacking."

Except that wads of currency don't float...they sink, right?

[FLYJACK 654]

37 minutes ago, georger said:

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 30, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: diatoms

"This raises the possibility that if the $20 bill, after its discovery, had ever been washed or rinsed in river water or even tap water, it could have acquired the diatoms that were found in 2020. In my Chapter 12, I wrote that I had needed to assume that the bill and the diatoms had not met up in this way. "

"In my mind, therefore, there is no reason to exclude the arrival of the money in some Northwestern waterway on the night of the hijacking."

I read Edwards saying he does not support conclusions TK has made regarding diatoms found on Cooper money. I read Edwards as saying TK's diatom research is not comprehensive or correct in that it does not consider all of the options available in the diatoms-money matter. 

Edwards asks if diatoms on the money could not have come from tap water in the Ingram apartment washing scenario, vs exposure to Columbia river water at Tena Bar !  In other words TK's controls are lacking and do not warrant the conclusions TK made.  

*In other words:  when is a diatom a tap water diatom vs. a Columbia River diatom ?  And precisely where was Cooper money exposed to - diatoms ! TK has failed to identify the source of Cooper money diatoms and when TK says 'the money was buried in the Spring based on diatoms' - TK's research does not prove that conclusion !

 

The diatom research indicates.. it doesn't prove anything... Tom's conclusions are speculation.

Edwards is still trying to push the narrative for Cooper jumping into the Columbia.. He is trying to make the evidence fit his conclusion..

Edwards ignores and distorts the jump evidence to do it.. he is creating doubt in the diatoms to support his bias. You can always find doubt especially in this case...

The evidence supports the "FBI" jump zone between about the Lewis R and Battleground and in context with the diatom evidence indicates that the money went into the Columbia at a later (Spring/Summer) time. The money was also found in the upper layer with fresher debris.. a pop can that didn't exist in 1971. Like much of the Cooper case these things can never be proven.

Cooper was separated from some or all the money and 3 packets were found on TBAR..

The evidence strongly supports the "FBI" flight path.

The evidence strongly supports the "FBI" landing zone.

 

 

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, georger said:

Huh !?   WTF is your problem ?

Georger, the question you should be asking is what is your own problem.

[Robert99 37]

22 hours ago, olemisscub said:

The bulkhead door could definitely be locked from the outside. They would often leave these planes overnight on the tarmac with the aft stairs down. That tells me that they must have had a way to lock the bulkhead door to prevent thieves or whatever. It may have been literal keys because I believe there were actual keys that could unlock the stairs from the outside. Perhaps the same set of keys unlocked both?

Judging from the handle on the bulkhead door in olemisscub's picture, it appears that the bulkhead door can be closed and secured from outside the pressure bulkhead but I doubt if it can be locked.

To secure the aircraft, it would be best to have a lock on the outside stairs control panel to lock the stairs up and another lock on the entry and service doors in the cabin compartment.