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7 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's in reference to the damage of the placard. how it got in the condition it was found. it didn't seem to affect skydivers so what would it do to the card? 

Don't know anything about the placard other than what I've read on here, but certainly paper/cardboard/thin plastic or whatever it was made from would be more susceptible to damage. Thinking back to that video 377 posted showing the paratroopers exiting, I noticed that when the deployment bags came out of the containers, they were getting blown upwards into the top of the stair channel/bottom of the plane. Something similar might likely happen to the lightweight placard and/or the door it was attached to. Or it could have been damaged after landing over time and whatever it may have been exposed to. A couple questions about the placard that come to mind: 1) How was it attached to the door? If it was a decal, or glued to it, how would it come off in pretty much one piece? 2) Where else could it have come from if not the Cooper plane, either during the crime or the subsequent tests? I can't imagine other jetliners cruising along with the rear stair door open, for another one to get blown out of.

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5 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

Ask the jumpers how many containers hold a 34' canopy?

Don't know what the Amboy chute was, but just because it was 34' doesn't necessarily make it a cargo chute.

The 35' T-10 is a pretty standard personnel chute that's been around since the 50's and I believe is still in use today. Don't know if it was ever used in bailout rigs (I doubt it because it packs pretty big), but it was used as a main for paratroopers and early sport skydivers. I made several of my first jumps on them.

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(edited)

Reviewing the previous posts, I have one question, and one comment. 

Question:  How do you know for certain the parachute found in Amboy in 2008 was 34 feet in diameter? I have not seen this in any media report whatsoever, and I have even reviewed the information that is no longer linked on the internet. Most of those references and articles I have copied into a print file, and not one of them says the chute size. In fact the only reference to size is from the former head of the Seattle FBI office, who told reporters:  "It's the right size, the right color, and was found in the right place..."

Comment:  Shutter says in part -

Quote

"I can't imagine other jetliners cruising along with the rear stair door open, for another one to get blown out of..."

Out of all the things and all those pictures I have seen posted regarding the placard, this innocuous little comment is actually quite important. Yes. How many other jetliners do you believe cruised along with the airstairs open, to enable the placard to fly out and land in the same area as the flight path? I have a theory about Cooper research. Sometimes people make things much more complicated than they really are. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Don't know what the Amboy chute was, but just because it was 34' doesn't necessarily make it a cargo chute.

The 35' T-10 is a pretty standard personnel chute that's been around since the 50's and I believe is still in use today. Don't know if it was ever used in bailout rigs (I doubt it because it packs pretty big), but it was used as a main for paratroopers and early sport skydivers. I made several of my first jumps on them.

Yes, the T-10 was used in WW2. G-14 is a cargo chute at 34 feet as well. the only markings on the chute is a number. I use to have a photo of another cargo chute with similar numbers marked on it. the photo is on my older computer that doesn't work and I haven't been able to find it again. it was some years back. 

The G-14 Cargo Parachute provides the capability to deliver non-fragile supplies and equipment using a low-velocity air delivery method.

 

Cossey stated the canopy was 34 feet in diameter and was a cargo chute from WW2. similar to the T-10. 

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 "It's the right size, the right color, and was found in the right place..."

Correct, that was an early report. that doesn't mean that was the final outcome. just like they said it was possible that it was a chute from a pilot who bailed out in the area. the spokesperson only agreed it could be possible not knowing all the facts..

Carr first stated the chute was found by the owners of the property while grading a road. several years ago he is on video stating it was found on the side of a hill in some garbage. the whole thing sounds like a publicity stunt. Carr said he wanted to release information to the public to regain attention. not long after that statement the chute was found loaded with mystery. not the type that implies it was Cooper's. 

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The placard is another mystery involved in the case. it was found on the west side of the path against the wind direction, or the suspected wind direction. the odds are extremely low of it coming from another 727 with the stairs down. the question is whether or not the hijacked plane had the emergency system on the plane. this would verify it coming from 305. 

nobody is sure how the placard is attached. I believe it's like a decal with adhesive as it's attachment. not even sure what size the panel is to access the emergency handle. it might come down to getting Boeing itself to answer these questions or finding a 727 with these controls. I found several sites that sell placards for the 727 but they typically ask for a part number and don't provide photo's. even when you explain what is on the placard. 

The other question would be did the placard move while on the ground for seven years? that's a rather large gap from 1971 to 1978. was the panel originally attached to the placard when it left the plane. lots of variables. 

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(edited)

Shutter says in part:

Quote

"Cossey stated the canopy was 34 feet in diameter and was a cargo chute from WW2. similar to the T-10..."

Really? And you have a verifiable source for this? He told every media that contacted him that the Seattle FBI simply dumped the chute in his driveway and he is quoted by those sources as saying he 'knew it wasn't Cooper's in less than ten seconds'. I can show you the article from the Seattle Times and other media if you wish. One reporter almost got fired when Cossey said it WAS Cooper's chute, and the reporter ran with that story. He was not happy. 

You want to quote statements by known people, you have to come with a better source than the one you provided. AB of Seattle staff downloaded every article, every statement, everything said by the Seattle FBI on that chute. Your alleged conclusion by Cossey appears in NONE of them. Every article, every statement, everything we recorded regarding that chute and Cossey says he wrote it off without hardly giving it a glance. He also claimed in multiple interviews with media that the chute was made from silk, not nylon, and THAT's how 'he knew it wasn't Cooper's.' That claim has been roundly discounted by skydivers who have seen pictures the FBI provided of the chute.

Source please? And explain how the container and harness were NOT found with the buried chute...even a cargo chute needs a human being to remove them and take them elsewhere...even if it is buried. Pfft. 

You also say THIS:

Quote

'the whole thing sounds like a publicity stunt.'

Really. You actually BELIEVE that a story covered worldwide, addressed to the media by the (then) current head of the FBI office in Seattle (several times in multiple articles by newspapers all over the globe) was a 'publicity stunt'? 

No wonder credibility is suffering. 

Or is it because I brought it up?

 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

jumping back to the Hayden chutes..

 

I found that the era Steinthal chutes use the S/N form year-number like "60-9707" made in 1960.

 

Houston, WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

 

Either the FBI mixed up the Cossey and Hayden chutes and/or they are holding back info only known to Cooper....

 

The back chute found on the plane doesn't match the one returned to Hayden.

That indicates Cooper used Cossey's chute..

 

"On seat 18B, an unopened back type parachute was observed. A card in the pocket of this parachute reflected it to be a Conacol type parachute, number 60-9707 and made by the Pioneer Parachute Company.  This card indicated it was last inspected on May 21, 1971."

 

1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  60-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)

 

The front reserve was a Switlik 1959..

cooperchestpar.jpeg.10b0443c4b98b5adc2cfb4838862ed2d.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Robert, if I 'DUMPED" a pile of books with no covers on them. how long would it take for you to know that you didn't write them. seconds, minutes. do you think a stop watch was used when Cossey made the statement? 

Saying it was Cooper's chute was a JOKE. if butts got hurt, oh well.

You take EVERYTHING" as fact. the chute did what it was intended to do if it was a publicity stunt, no? got the case back in the media? I never once claimed it as fact. "the whole thing sounds like a publicity stunt" yes, it does. 

Edited by mrshutter45

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(edited)

Source please? And explain how the container and harness were NOT found with the buried chute...even a cargo chute needs a human being to remove them and take them elsewhere...even if it is buried. Pfft.

How many chutes are sold a year with cut lines and no containers? got a "Pfft" for that?

The source is there if you look for it.. right out in the open. get the "staff" to find it. I'm a little busy to research for others.. :)

Edited by mrshutter45

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Condition is Used. This is just the canopy, lines have been removed except the ones at the apex. Solid canopy with no vents and in good condition. Great for shade or craft projects. no container.

Used G-14 Cargo U.S. Military Parachute. This is a34'US Military G-14 Cargo Parachute, Camouflage Cover, w/ ALL Suspension Lines! no container.

28' diameter The lines have been cut for safety reasons. There are no holes in the nylon.

People use old chutes for all kinds of reasons. with/without lines...is this new to you? 

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(edited)

Three posts...not a single answer to any of the questions I posed. Especially the one where you claimed that Cossey actually named a size and type on the chute. 

Best post I saw today was the Lego set. ;) I may buy one for the office and have Gayla dress/paint one of the characters to look more like Cooper. Maybe paint Northwest Orient on the side of the airplane, just for laughs. I have some action figures, small ones, that might work better for Cooper though. Have to look. A small blonde could be added for Mucklow. 

https://shop.lego.com/en-US/product/Sky-Police-Parachute-Arrest-60208

Let me be straight up about the small controversy regarding how many, etc chutes were given to Cooper, or one being held back, or whatever. The only important points here are the number brought on board, (that's known) and the type of chute Cooper jumped with, which is also known. The remaining chutes just don't mean much as evidence. The ones that matter are the one not found that Cooper jumped with, and the one he tossed out the back, because it hasn't been found either. The evidentiary value of the others is minimal, or the question of whether four or five were delivered to SeaTac. I suppose the pink chute from which Cooper harvested the paracord has some value, but a lot more if someone finds an empty money bag with pink cord around it out in the woods sometime. 

Cossey did NOT own any of the chutes. They were either owned by SkySports, or by Norman Hayden. That's like saying your surgeon owns the new hip he replaced yours with. Cossey was the rigger. 

Another point is that if it is known that only FOUR chutes were actually brought on board...how would a fifth one end up in a report by the Reno office of the FBI? If it were reversed, it would make more sense. To determine the truth of the matter, you have to go backwards...you have to determine FOR SURE that only four chutes were brought on board. Because if you CERTIFY that 100%, this goes far to support the idea the Reno office simply screwed the pooch on their end of the chute-arrival situation. (Unless you believe someone air-expressed a fifth chute from Seattle to Reno before the jet arrived.)

I have studied Flyjack's submitted documents extensively, but I'm still not completely convinced that this Fifth Beatle (okay, parachute) isn't just a screw up by the Reno FBI office. I tend to believe the more concise, better-written, and well-sourced document on the parachutes written by Seattle FBI agent John Detlor. It's pretty straightforward stuff. 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt3.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Three posts...not a single answer to any of the questions I posed. Especially the one where you claimed that Cossey actually named a size and type on the chute. 

Best post I saw today was the Lego set. ;) I may buy one for the office and have Gayla dress/paint one of the characters to look more like Cooper. Maybe paint Northwest Orient on the side of the airplane, just for laughs. I have some action figures, small ones, that might work better for Cooper though. Have to look. A small blonde could be added for Mucklow. 

https://shop.lego.com/en-US/product/Sky-Police-Parachute-Arrest-60208

Let me be straight up about the small controversy regarding how many, etc chutes were given to Cooper, or one being held back, or whatever. The only important points here are the number brought on board, (that's known) and the type of chute Cooper jumped with, which is also known. The remaining chutes just don't mean much as evidence. The ones that matter are the one not found that Cooper jumped with, and the one he tossed out the back, because it hasn't been found either. The evidentiary value of the others is minimal, or the question of whether four or five were delivered to SeaTac. I suppose the pink chute from which Cooper harvested the paracord has some value, but a lot more if someone finds an empty money bag with pink cord around it out in the woods sometime. 

Cossey did NOT own any of the chutes. They were either owned by SkySports, or by Norman Hayden. That's like saying your surgeon owns the new hip he replaced yours with. Cossey was the rigger. 

Another point is that if it is known that only FOUR chutes were actually brought on board...how would a fifth one end up in a report by the Reno office of the FBI? If it were reversed, it would make more sense. To determine the truth of the matter, you have to go backwards...you have to determine FOR SURE that only four chutes were brought on board. Because if you CERTIFY that 100%, this goes far to support the idea the Reno office simply screwed the pooch on their end of the chute-arrival situation. (Unless you believe someone air-expressed a fifth chute from Seattle to Reno before the jet arrived.)

I have studied Flyjack's submitted documents extensively, but I'm still not completely convinced that this Fifth Beatle (okay, parachute) isn't just a screw up by the Reno FBI office. I tend to believe the more concise, better-written, and well-sourced document on the parachutes written by Seattle FBI agent John Detlor. It's pretty straightforward stuff. 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt3.jpg

 

Did Cooper jump with Hayden's back chute or Cossey's back chute?

 

That letter is not inconsistent.. if you read it the letter only states that Hayden sent two back chutes to NorthWest Airlines.. not Cooper. You keep claiming you believe the letter but it isn't contradictory.

 

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(edited)

The REAL question is...WHERE did the chute Cooper jumped with end up? Where is it now? Why has no one found it, even though the flight path area south of Lake Merwin has grown up big-time in the last (nearly) fifty years. Find that chute, and depending on the condition and situation of that chute...you could answer one of the biggest questions the case offers. Did Cooper survive and walk away with the money, or was he killed? 

The more time that passes without a single piece of additional evidence discovered on the ground, the more it becomes likely that Cooper actually got away with it. I'm not buying into the idea of revising history by using Microsoft Flight Simulator, (as a few folks have done) or simply trying to move 305 miles west of where it actually was, in order to explain the Tina Bar money. One of the biggest holes in all these theories is that nothing else has ever been found. No body, no briefcase, nothing...not even in the Tina Bar area. Now the placard find is in doubt as well, although Shutter brings up a good point when he asks how many times do you believe a 727 flew with the airstairs down, which would give opportunity for the card to fly away from the jet. Simple point, but a good one. 

I keep wondering why you refer to any of the chutes as 'Cossey's chute'. As far as I know, Cossey did not actually own any of the chutes provided to Cooper. The only two sources for the chutes ever quoted were Sky Sports and Norman Hayden. Cossey is only mentioned as the person who rigged the chutes. And why would a report come out of the Reno office allegedly naming a fifth chute, when only FOUR were allegedly taken on board in Seattle? There is no reference in the Reno report noting that this fifth chute was still in Seattle. And there is no mention of it in Seattle reports. ("One chute was held at the airport and not taken on board") 

The whole thing is weird, I will give you that. Not sure if it really proves anything one way or another that is really key to solving the crime, but it is weird. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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"2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  60-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)"

I've never seen a 24 ft white ripstop conical. Dudeman? All the white ripstop conicals I saw pre 1971 were Navy 26 ft ones. 

377

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(edited)
11 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The REAL question is...WHERE did the chute Cooper jumped with end up? Where is it now? Why has no one found it, even though the flight path area south of Lake Merwin has grown up big-time in the last (nearly) fifty years. Find that chute, and depending on the condition and situation of that chute...you could answer one of the biggest questions the case offers. Did Cooper survive and walk away with the money, or was he killed? 

The more time that passes without a single piece of additional evidence discovered on the ground, the more it becomes likely that Cooper actually got away with it. I'm not buying into the idea of revising history by using Microsoft Flight Simulator, (as a few folks have done) or simply trying to move 305 miles west of where it actually was, in order to explain the Tina Bar money. One of the biggest holes in all these theories is that nothing else has ever been found. No body, no briefcase, nothing...not even in the Tina Bar area. Now the placard find is in doubt as well, although Shutter brings up a good point when he asks how many times do you believe a 727 flew with the airstairs down, which would give opportunity for the card to fly away from the jet. Simple point, but a good one. 

I keep wondering why you refer to any of the chutes as 'Cossey's chute'. As far as I know, Cossey did not actually own any of the chutes provided to Cooper. The only two sources for the chutes ever quoted were Sky Sports and Norman Hayden. Cossey is only mentioned as the person who rigged the chutes. And why would a report come out of the Reno office allegedly naming a fifth chute, when only FOUR were allegedly taken on board in Seattle? There is no reference in the Reno report noting that this fifth chute was still in Seattle. And there is no mention of it in Seattle reports. ("One chute was held at the airport and not taken on board") 

The whole thing is weird, I will give you that. Not sure if it really proves anything one way or another that is really key to solving the crime, but it is weird. 

 

You didn't answer the question,,

 

Did Cooper jump with one of Hayden' back chutes both "Pioneers" or the NB6/8?

 

"_______ advised that he doubts the person who committed this crime was a sky diver. He noted that he has heard that the parachutes furnished to the man were a Commercial brand named ''Pioneer" and a now surplus Navy parachute designated "NB-8”. He stated if this is a fact he doubts the man is a sky diver inasmuch as anyone with sky-diving would have asked for a sky-diving type parachute, which neither of the above are. 


________ advised that the above parachutes would be hazardous to use inasmuch as that type of chute would open very quickly, with a possibility of tearing, and both have a high rate of descent and very limited control. In his opinion, a person using such a chute would probably have prior military jumping experience but would not have sky-diving experience. He further noted that an experienced sky diver would have asked for a Chute such as a "Para-Commander", which would be readily .available in an area such as Seattle, Washington. This type of parachute opens more slowly, ls very maneuverable and has a much slower rate of descent."

1 hour ago, 377 said:

"2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  60-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)"

I've never seen a 24 ft white ripstop conical. Dudeman? All the white ripstop conicals I saw pre 1971 were Navy 26 ft ones. 

377

The 24ft might be a typo.. the takeaway is the SN and date for the Pioneer left on the plane differ from the Pioneer back chute Hayden got returned.

 

24 foot U.S. MILITARY PARACHUTE MFG Pioneer back pack Parachute dated July 1946

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/24-foot-U-S-MILITARY-PARACHUTE-MFG-Pioneer-Parachute-july-1946/162103956850?hash=item25be261572:g:DAYAAOSwGIRXYBsk

 

a 24ft pilot chute B-8 from 1944??

http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear7.html

 

nored139b.jpg.5fbfd97a52981c39743b8aeaf4fd43ac.jpg

 

u-1403.jpg.8c8bc7859fb65e32a84f68ad42b5c5bf.jpg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 5/3/2019 at 1:42 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

Ha Ha Ha is fiction all the way. I already researched that one. The artist who did the pictures for the interior and the cover is from Portland and still active today. The author is known to a few people, including the Ariel Store's Dona Eliott, who had a steady supply of copies for years. She said she had met him, and he was nothing like the sketch. A guy much younger than Cooper was at the time of the hijacking. I interviewed her extensively prior to the Cooper Days event in 2012. See my Quora article about all that HERE.

From what I can gather here, it is actually unknown who the author was.  Unless you can provide a name, then this is all speculation and hearsay.  Even if you got a name from Dona (didn't she pass a few years ago?), you can't prove it was the author, correct me if I am wrong.  It could have been someone fronting, or even a stooge hired by Cooper to pose as the author.   I get you have assessed it was a "pro job", but perhaps it was hired out by Cooper?  The one thing we can say with certainty is Cooper had enough money to hire editors and illustrators.

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